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Offlinebeatlesrock
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athiests
    #893516 - 09/19/02 02:04 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

this post is in repsonse to a poster in my other thread "how can athiests exist?". i dont remember who it was, but im just gonna comment on some of the things he quoted me on. any athiests or anyone please try to refute what im saying. and try not to nit-pick on little things, im sure you can prove some details of what i am saying wrong. read the whole thing and try to refute the general idea


“I believe a superior being doesn't exist for the same reason I believe the tooth fairy doesn't exist: zero indication, zero evidence. Just stories.”

So just because you have never seen any indication of the existence of something means it doesn’t exist? Do you realize how little of this world, and much more, the universe, you have not personal seen or received any evidence for? But do the stars exist? The only indication you have about the existence of stars is a bunch of tiny spots of light in the sky at night. You have no idea what they are. And neither did past civilizations, that’s why they made mythology about them. On the same token, does the ground 6 feet below you exist? How would you know?

For some things you don’t need evidence. The situation we are all in, as living creatures, is ABSURD. You rarely stop to think about it, but we really have NO FUCKING CLUE how or why we got here. We just know we have somehow found ourselves in the middle of this amazingly, incomprehensibly complex and intricate “thing”. We are totally clueless. The reason for all this could be ANYTHING. You just cant rule out the possibility that some “being” created it. By being, I DO NOT mean the traditional god type being. Maybe it is more near a bolt of lightening. Or maybe its just some force, or maybe a flash of light, or “the void”, or maybe the universe itself. Or maybe its just totally incomprehensible, or maybe indescribable, or both. Who knows? We don’t. maybe science is god, ever think about that? You really need to separate yourself from your preconceived notions on what god is.

“I think we have a pretty good understanding of how we got here. Nobody wil ever answer why we are here. Man's attempts at doing so have resulted in religion.”

We have no idea how or why we got here. No theory is concrete on evolution. And religion is IMO a sham anyway. But please, leave religion out of this. It has nothing to do with the subject. Religion celebrates the god who lives behind pearly gates, which I agree with you on, that it doesn’t exist (but I could never know for sure)

“Hypocritical how?
Arrogant how?
Funny how?”

hypocritical in that they insult believers for believing something exists without proof, while they go off and believe something doesn’t exist without proof. Arrogant in that atheists act so scientific and scoff at the “lesser” beliefs of believers in god. Funny cus atheists are so fervent about this whole thing when IMO they are just as clueless as the believers.

As always, I am an agnostic. I refuse to believe my intellectual powers are great enough to know if something I know nothing about exists or not


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: athiests [Re: beatlesrock]
    #893528 - 09/19/02 02:12 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

it's spelled A-t-h-e-i-s-m
root word - theism (belief in god or gods)
prefix - a (without)

so, atheism in its most literal sense means "without belief in a god or gods"
this does not equate to "belief that a god or gods do not exist"
any intellectually honest atheist won't assert that some god does not exist, because god has yet to be proven or disproven. all the word means is that one does not personally hold belief in a god.


--------------------
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-Ralph Nader



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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: athiests [Re: beatlesrock]
    #893544 - 09/19/02 02:23 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

As always, I am an agnostic. I refuse to believe my intellectual powers are great enough to know if something I know nothing about exists or not






P.S.

agnosticism is not simply a middle-ground between atheism and theism. anyone in the world is either an atheist or a theist, you may be an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist. because of what atheism is defined as .... as I stated above ^

from the book Atheism - The Case Against God by George H Smith
"the agnostic theist believes in the existence of god, but maintains that the nature of god is unknowable. [...] according to the religious agnostic, we can state that god is but not what god is.

Like his theistic cousin, the agnostic atheist maintains that any supernatural realm is inherently unknowable by the human mind, but this agnostic suspends his judgement one step further back. For the agnostic atheist, not only is the nature of any supernatural being unknowable, but the existence of any supernatural being is unknowable as well. because this kind of agnostic does not subscribe to theistic belief, he qualifies as an atheist."


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Edited by Albino_Jesus (09/19/02 02:25 PM)


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Offlinepattern
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Re: athiests [Re: beatlesrock]
    #893566 - 09/19/02 02:40 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

> So just because you have never seen any indication of the existence of
> something means it doesnt exist?

No. It just means you dont believe it exists. I dont believe that the Lochness monster exists, it doesnt follow that I believe the Lochness monster doesnt exist. Simple logic.


--------------------
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Offline_VisioN_
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Re: athiests [Re: pattern]
    #893607 - 09/19/02 03:07 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

listen bro u made a good point but let me explain to u my reasons for not believing:
- Religion was created by man, yes many of the biblical figures exsisted but nonetheless it has been altered by man greatly in order too fit mankinds wants, that means that Religion is falliable and not a direct sending from "god" therefore not as divine as the religious say want or want you to believe it is.
- Religion was created for power and greed. what i mean by this is, one day one man decided... "hey i wonder how i can gain some power" so he thought of "religion" something that he could bind the people with, and this he did with great sucess thus being born the first form of religion. and it wusnt born out of divine right but out of greed and desire, this one man would spread this word (charismatic person) of his "Religion" his beliefs, that it would amaze the people and lead them to adapt his ideology thus making this man very powerful and controlling the people very easily, i cud go on ferever about this one but lemme wrap this one up. anyway, years later after a whole fair sized group of people has been recrutied... he wants more power so he mends his own creation from love every1 to kill or convert and conquer. and since the people bound by this faith trust this man they follow his words and under his command go on to conquest and convert many "heathens" actually pagans that, werent interested in greed and corruption but were however ill temepered when tested (an honor thing). so the wek were converted and the strong and honorable died. this continued until the man died, and someone took on his crusade and mended it to his wants. and this is wut has happened with all religion. judaism, islam, christianity everything except paganism, and maybe wiccans and sometimes satanism but i wont go into this unless someone wants to hear it.
- now on to the next. i have a few theories on death an such. but mainly this one. u die its over just complete cessation of exsistance rahter than heaven, i believe it to be a false promise becuz i believ religion is false as well. now why should i spend the lil bit of time i have here wasting it on lying to myself? i rather not and live for me not for the glory of some "god". my opinion is dont waste ur time.
-in conclusion like the dude that first responded to this thread. im not saying i dont believe there is a god becuz then i wudent be an atheist. i just dont care whether or not there is, it doesnt concern me and why shud i pretend to have faith when if there truly is an omnipotent being im pretty sure he wud kno its BS. i have more to write but that is all fer now cuz i g2g.


-Vision


--------------------
ShRoOmZ
Long live...METAL!!!


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Offlinebeatlesrock
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Re: athiests [Re: beatlesrock]
    #893723 - 09/19/02 03:51 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

VisioN-how many times do i need to say it? stop associating god with religion, dammit! as i said, religion is a sham, we agree on that. if you want to argue then take my opposing viewpoint; its impossible to know that god doesnt exist. \

religion has nothing to do with it

and jesus-your getting too far into semantics. you dont need to get that technical to answer the question


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Offlinebeatlesrock
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Re: athiests [Re: beatlesrock]
    #893734 - 09/19/02 03:56 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

"Religion was created for power and greed. what i mean by this is, one day one man decided... "hey i wonder how i can gain some power" so he thought of "religion" something that he could bind the people with, and this he did with great sucess thus being born the first form of religion. and it wusnt born out of divine right but out of greed and desire"

that was profoundly ignorant, IMO

were you around back then? what your saying is so improbable and ridiculous. religion wasnt created for power and greed and desire, it was created to explain the unexplainable. and there wasnt one man who out of nowhere decided to create it-it developed very gradually over countless cultures. even the earliest humans worshipped in some way. as time went on religion evolved into what it is today. now, i do not believe that religion was correct. but this is besides the point

there is alot of greed and desire mixed in with religion. but they werent its founding principles, and they still are not today. im not saying they dont play a major role though

heaven? like religion, dont even mention it. its irrelevent. i agree with you, i dont think it exists (but of course, i could never know for sure)


Edited by beatlesrock (09/19/02 03:59 PM)


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Offline_VisioN_
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Re: athiests [Re: beatlesrock]
    #893740 - 09/19/02 03:59 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

dude listen i said that u had a good point and i forgot to say this but i use religion as an example, and i dont just use it towards you but i also use it to try and show visitors to this thread my views on religion and god (religious visitors). ur question cannot be given a valid answer becuz u are correct we have no way of disproving it but noone has a way of scientifically proving it either. chills, its all love. 1 more thing i use religion becuz it iis the most accesble way for ppl to be "one with god"


-Vision


--------------------
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Long live...METAL!!!


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: athiests [Re: beatlesrock]
    #893748 - 09/19/02 04:03 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

"Religion was created for power and greed. what i mean by this is, one day one man decided... "hey i wonder how i can gain some power" so he thought of "religion" something that he could bind the people with, and this he did with great sucess thus being born the first form of religion. and it wusnt born out of divine right but out of greed and desire"

that was profoundly ignorant, IMO






and immature.
the greed of man has had much influence over many religions but it is very doubtful it was the single reason for its existence

In reply to:

and jesus-your getting too far into semantics. you dont need to get that technical to answer the question






I think semantics are important when it comes to this issue.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Edited by Albino_Jesus (09/19/02 04:05 PM)


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Offline_VisioN_
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Re: athiests [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #893770 - 09/19/02 04:13 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

i maybe ignorant u 2 maybe right and probably are but i dont mind and no i didnt mean to say it was based on this alone but wut has been sed has been said, so be it i did not come here to get scrutinzed for my beliefs i plainly stated that that is my opinion. next time if u want agreements jus post that on the title either way it doesnt matter i understand wut u are saying and agree to a certain extent and i have no problem admitting my "ignorance" but if u believe the fact that i stated my opinions makes me ignorant then well , actually im tired of battling here so jus lemme quit this shit. Peace, BTW albino is right semantics are important in this kind of discussion.


-Vision


--------------------
ShRoOmZ
Long live...METAL!!!


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Offlinebeatlesrock
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Re: athiests [Re: _VisioN_]
    #894037 - 09/19/02 06:28 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

im sorry if you took offense to that. i wasnt scrutinizing you, i was scrutinizing your arguement.

as you said-peace


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: athiests [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #894277 - 09/19/02 08:13 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I just wanted to disagree with your comments on agnosticism. I agree that the majority of people who claim to be agnostics I don't consider to be. I have always classified agnostics into two groups - those who say they don't know and those who say they cannot know. The "don't know" group always seem to have leanings one way or the other. I have always thought of the "cannot know" group as true agnostics - their viewpoint is that there is no way they can accurately know whether or not there is a god, and that certainly fits the definition of the word. They aren't atheists, because they don't deny the existence of a god.

As to the general topic of the thread, I consider my belief in God (or any deities) to be the same as my belief in unicorns. You can find a great deal written long ago where the authors believed that such creatures exist. Obviously, it is impossible to prove that they don't and never did. But the lack of solid evidence is good enough for me to conclude that unicorns are a myth. Similarly, I see a definite lack of evidence that God (or any particular deity) exists. If good physical evidence were presented I would certainly be willing to reconsider. Considering the attributes of many deities, the evidence is probably going to have to be pretty spectacular. I have a difficult time imagining what kind of evidence it would take to make be believe in an omniscient, omnipotent being. It'd take some pretty good stuff just to make me believe in a guy who can throw lightning bolts with his hands.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: athiests [Re: ToxicMan]
    #896203 - 09/20/02 11:02 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

They aren't atheists, because they don't deny the existence of a god.







don't you understand the definition of "atheist"?

atheist means "one who is without belief in god/s"
not "one who believes that god/s don't exist"
there is a difference.
if you think one cannot know if a god exists, then you can't possibly hold belief in a god
this fits the definition of atheist.

from the book Atheism - The Case Against God -
"the term "agnostic" was coined by Thomas Huxley in 1869. he selected the early religious sect known as the "Gnostics" as a prime example of men who claim knowledge of the supernatural without justification; and he distinguished himself as "A-gnostic" by stipulating that the supernatural, even if it exists, lies beyond the scope of human knowledge. we cannot say if it does or does not exist, so we must suspend judgement."

theism and atheism refer to presence or absence of belief in god.
agnosticism refers to the impossibility of knowledge with regard to a god or supernatural being




--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: athiests [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896520 - 09/21/02 01:28 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

atheist - n. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

Source: The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition


1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, ? 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.



agnostic - n

1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

Source: The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition


One who professes ignorance, or denies that we have any knowledge, save of phenomena; one who supports agnosticism, neither affirming nor denying the existence of a personal Deity, a future life, etc.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, ? 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.



Let us not get all wrapped up in semantics. I am well aware of Huxley's coinage of the term. It is no longer used exactly the way he intended, and there are now additional definitions. Current English usage clearly allows for somebody to be agnostic and not atheist (please contact the editors of The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, not me, if you disagree and get them to change their definition).

It is clear to me that our differences are primarily semantic. Perhaps things are best left there.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: athiests [Re: ToxicMan]
    #896545 - 09/21/02 01:38 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

the american heritage dictionary is a pile of shit dedicated to spreading misconceptions about words and their meanings, rather than researching word-origins and taking a simple look at latin root words and prefixes. american heritage is a rather appropriate title. lets forget all about the other languages our words come from
the least they could do is INCLUDE the proper meanings of the words and give them mutiple uses, in such a case an agnostic would still qualify as an atheist. without its original meaning, what word should we use for the literal meaning of A-Theist? some other word, and let the word atheist get perverted into oblivion?


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Edited by Albino_Jesus (09/21/02 01:41 AM)


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Re: athiests [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897232 - 09/21/02 01:16 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

A dictionary's purpose is to present the meaning of words, as they are used.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: athiests [Re: ]
    #897234 - 09/21/02 01:18 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

if that's the case, then every common grammatical/spelling/usage error belongs in dictionaries as "proper" english.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: athiests [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897239 - 09/21/02 01:21 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

if that's the case, then every common grammatical/spelling/usage error belongs in dictionaries as "proper" english.

U gotta point hear.


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Re: athiests [Re: Sclorch]
    #897588 - 09/21/02 04:18 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Hardly. The statement is disingenuous.

Dictionaries present the language in common usage. Words change meaning in common usage over time (anybody feel like walking into a tough bar and loudly proclaiming that they feel gay?). Other words you can research the changes of meaning of include brave, counterfeit, notorious, buxom, and nice.


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Re: athiests [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #898072 - 09/21/02 08:18 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

O.K so if we we want a defintion to agree upon we will come to you?
A Dictionary is a way to know what someone is talking about its what someone WILL refer to if they dont know a the meaning of a word, so it's probably a good idea to use them as defined.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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