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Offlineevilchipmunk
All your nutsare belong tome.

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 268
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
Atheism.
    #2916769 - 07/22/04 04:04 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I've noticed a general attitude of superiority among atheists (namely one of my close relatives).  From my experience, many of them seem to think that those who believe in god are ignorant and close-minded on the basis that there is no proof of god's existence.  What I don't understand is, how in the hell can they overlook the fact that there is also no proof of god's non-existence?  If they can't accept the possibility that they could be wrong, doesn't that make them just as close-minded (if not more so, just because of that pretentious attitude) as those that adhere faithfully to different beliefs?  I just don't get atheists at all.  I've been struggling to get along with one in particular that absolutely refuses to listen to what I have to say.  It has been very, very frustrating.  I would just let it go, and leave beliefs out of it, but it really grates on my nerves every time he decides to slander other religions (namely Christianity).  I'm not a Christian myself, but it still pisses me off to no end.

Maybe I should have put this in the support group board, but I figured it would fit better here..  If anyone has any advice or thoughts, I'd be glad to hear them.  :heart:


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2916787 - 07/22/04 04:09 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I'm agnostic for the very fact that it is impossible to prove that something doesn't exist. We can prove that things exist all day long but there is no way of proving without a shadow of a doubt that something doesn't exist. Tell the snooty atheists that.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2916799 - 07/22/04 04:12 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I agree. Agnosticism is a respectable position, but atheism does seem somewhat arrogant.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlineevilchipmunk
All your nutsare belong tome.

Registered: 05/13/04
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2916805 - 07/22/04 04:13 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Exactly, Ekstaza .. but it's hard to tell them that in a way they'll actually listen to me.  :sad:


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George Dubya Bush's Resume.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2916824 - 07/22/04 04:18 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Don't frustrate yourself by trying to convince them of anything.
They will only dig in deeper.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2916832 - 07/22/04 04:19 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I'm agnostic but i in a way feel sorry for members of organized religion because i think it is a farce and ludacris to believe in it. I'm sure some religious people might think i am acting superior but i mean well.

This is because i am also a "If you works for you and doesn't interfere with anyone else it cannot be bad." Even sometimes i wish i could be Christian because i find angel, demons, the war in heaven, and the book of Revelations quite interesting. I imagine it would be neat to believe in it all.

The only problem i have is that on many occasion organized religion does interfere with people who don't want it too.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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Offlineevilchipmunk
All your nutsare belong tome.

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Re: Atheism. [Re: Jellric]
    #2916851 - 07/22/04 04:26 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

The problem is it's equally frustrating to turn a cold shoulder while said relative slams someone else's beliefs in the most disrespectful way possible. :/


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2916856 - 07/22/04 04:28 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

The duck-billed platypus is proof that there is no God. How could a supreme being allow such a thing to exist?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineevilchipmunk
All your nutsare belong tome.

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Re: Atheism. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2916866 - 07/22/04 04:31 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

That could just be god's sense of humor. ;P


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Offlinedaba
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2916880 - 07/22/04 04:39 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

evilchipmunk:

Where did you first hear of a "God"? Were you told or did you think of it yourself?

"Gods" were first created to explain the inexplicable. Why was there lightning from the sky? The gods must be angry. My standpoint on the whole thing is much like Occom's Spoon. Logic will lead you to the right answer.

Nonetheless, religion is a means of control. Modern day religions are simply evolved forms of the primitive theist philosophy I just stated. Now that lighting and other mysteries have since been revealed by science, humans face only one more quotidian obstacle: death. I needn't explain more than that; you may speculate the possibilities regarding control.

Hence, one must consider the rules of a specific religion (be it a "good Samaritan" ordeal) to be rewards in itself, nothing more. Sure, many religions say to live a certain lifestyle to be guarenteed some beneficial afterlife, but again there is no proof of such. One abides by the certain religion because for the moment, one feels good that his/her actions brings him/herself one step closer to salvation, although s/he has no assurance if an afterlife other than another human being trained to tell her otherwise.

I think you know where I stand.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2916984 - 07/22/04 05:14 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I'm an atheist. I think it is not only foolish to believe in god but counterproductive and conducive to extreme mayhem. I think that the concept of a supreme being(s) is one of the worst ideas ever invented. I will also argue with those who do believe in god. In the face of logic, their position is totally unsupportable. It is not unusual for someone to consider those who have defeated them in a debate as arrogant. As an atheist, that person has bucked the tide of American society for quite some time and has thus honed his arguments in a fairly hostile crucible. The god-believer, on the other hand has had his arguments handed to him with very little challenge. The atheist has heard all of your points ad nauseum, he is immersed in them everyday, and you probably can't add anything, because there really is no logical support for believing in a supreme being.

I understand the agnostic point that they just don't know, but that kind of thing can be applied to alot of things and is also of no use. They can't touch electricity or prove it exists or doesn't, but they can still turn on a light switch and believe that the light will come on. If it doesn't they will check the bulb, circuit breaker, the neighbors' houses. For all their philosophy knows it could be magic.

As far as atheists being arrogant, part of that is from bucking the tide, part is that they have thought more about these things than most god-believers and part is that they are generally smarter people. Atheism is correlated strongly with level of education.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Atheism. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2917063 - 07/22/04 05:43 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

In the face of logic, their position is totally unsupportable. It is not unusual for someone to consider those who have defeated them in a debate as arrogant.




:thumbup:


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Offlineevilchipmunk
All your nutsare belong tome.

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Re: Atheism. [Re: daba]
    #2917089 - 07/22/04 05:54 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I know where you're coming from, daba.  Although I do consider myself agnostic, that doesn't necessarily go to say that I consider those of other beliefs to be close-minded or ignorant.  That includes Atheists, to a point.

But when an Atheist completely disregards other possibilities, even the ones that seem slim, that makes them seem a bit arrogant, at least to me.  And even more so when they show blatant disrespect to an entire religion simply on the basis that their beliefs aren't based completely on solid facts.  Sure, many religions are used to control people, and in some cases are horribly corrupted.  But not all people who are Christian, or what have you, are brainwashed sheep following out of fear and ignorance.

Lightening may not be a sign that 'god' is angry.  Then again, who are we to say it's not?  That may sound ridiculous, but think about it for a minute.  If god does happen to exist, who's to say we could really understand the possibilities or motives of 'his' actions?  Who's to say 'he' isn't controlling the course of all events, including lightning?  It's really impossible to say for sure.

On another scale, death is not the only obstacle left, by far.  Life, in my opinion, is a far bigger obstacle. 

For instance, consider the possibility that we were not 'created' instantly as humans, and instead evolved from more primitive life forms.  Perhaps, when earth was young, a bunch of molecules in a puddle of primordial ooze chanced to form into a very basic living cell.  Many would say that the chance of this happening would be miraculous, maybe even impossible.  Even more miraculous than the cell's appearance, though, is the fact that it somehow initially had the instinct to absorb energy, to split and reproduce, and continue to stay alive.  Where did this 'instinct' come from?  What's life's driving force?  We have no real proof one way or another.  As you said, all we can do is speculate.

I guess my point is, no matter what someone's beliefs are, a dose of agnosticism probably isn't a bad idea for anyone.  Meaning, it's completely OK to believe what you want- that's part of having a free mind.  But people need to remember that it is a BELEIF based on evidence, not fact, and accept that unless solid 'proof' is uncovered, said belief is only just that, and may be completely wrong.

I hope that makes sense.  :hippie:


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InvisibleTheHateCamel
Research &Development -DBK
Registered: 01/31/03
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Re: Atheism. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2917167 - 07/22/04 06:15 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

How does an athiest believe the universe began?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Atheism. [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #2917183 - 07/22/04 06:21 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Big bang. Pretty well established by now. What started that however is still to be discovered. We are ignorant of that. Funny that ignorance is the most frequent rationale for a belief in god. "We don't know so there must be some mysterious guiding being" For the Romans it was Zeus making lightning. There are endless examples


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OfflinePaintedDeath
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Re: Atheism. [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #2917191 - 07/22/04 06:24 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I myself am an Atheist.

i used to be really really REALLY Anti-Christian and Religion, however, i have grown a bit

i now feel, well i really dont give a damn. just live and let live. you say Atheists piss you off cause they make you feel that they think they are superior and close minded, well how do you think i feel whenever i run into a fervent Christian, that wants to preach to me all day long and tell me i am condemned to burn in hell for all eternity. i feel the same about Christians as you do about Atheists. close minded and holier-than-thou.

I believe that Religion is good for one thing. Morals.

Religion will keep people from becoming blood crazed hounds, because of the fear of hell and punishment. i believe societies should follow a religion to an extent. how far to an extent, i cant answer that. i will however, give an example.

I feel that Gay Marriage should be legal. Should it be fine in the eyes of god? i dont care, let the church stop people from being married on the basis that they are the same gender. thats the churchs decision. HOWEVER, the Government should have NO SAY in the matter, ESPECIALLY if the decision is weigh with the influence of Faith.

in the end live and let live, if somoene is going on and on about how your religion is bullshit, shrug if off and tell them you realy dont care to hear about it. same thing i do when a christian preachs to me =D


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I wanna cross The Rainbow Bridge, and see my fathers in The Golden Hall. They beckon me, to join their feast. In my dreams, I hear their call.


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Offlineevilchipmunk
All your nutsare belong tome.

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Re: Atheism. [Re: PaintedDeath]
    #2917224 - 07/22/04 06:34 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Zappaisgod- Yes, there are many downsides to many religions, counter-productivity and mayhem being only some of them. But did it ever cross your mind that belief in god provides some people with a good deal of hope, and strength, and something around which to form their morals? Did you ever stop to think that maybe not all of them were 'handed' their evidence, but found it themselves through experience or perhaps even rational thought? As I said before, not all 'god-believers', as you put it, are mindless followers, even if a good many of them are. There is such a thing as spirituality outside of organized religion. Whether you are right or wrong (something which you can't prove no matter what evidence you think you have), do you think it's right to try and convince these people they shouldn't believe in god? How do you feel when a 'god-believer' tries to force his beliefs on you? Is it any better when you try to force your opinions on them? You may think the world would be better off without the idea of god. But that is YOUR perspective, not everyone else's.

On a side note, the Big Bang also supports many christian theories. How did all that matter and energy appear out of nothing, since it's also been firmly established that energy can't be created or destroyed? Quite a paradox, hmm?

PaintedDeath, I totally feel your frustration. Being agnostic, I get the same treatment from overbearing Christians. But something I've also found from experience is that not all Christians are like that. Some of them are really good, nice people, and you can't just clump together 'good' and 'bad' people by these types of beliefs. Like you said, live and let live. Believe, and let believe.


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OfflinePaintedDeath
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2917285 - 07/22/04 07:02 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

evilchipmunk i never once stated all christians were over bearing. I have a good many friends who are religious. i just dont speak to them about it, there is NO REASON for argument over faith, unless you are either a total Atheist prick or a Religious, Fanatical Zealot. I said before that religion is good for one thing, and thats morals, well i have a counter argument to that.

What kinda god would tell you to die?

The Al queda terrorists strap bombs to their chests and kill buildings full of people in the name of god. It is quickly becoming my belief that religion is one of the worst things to happen to man kind. to many wars have been foughten, and to many lives have been lost in the name of god.

I read in TIME magazine today, an article about Thomas Jefferson. it was detailing how before he became president, and just after the revolutionary war, that Islamic pirates were sailing the Atlantic ocean, capturing and enslaving british and american sailors and such. since America was no longer under britian, we didnt have the british navy to protect us anymore. so in an effort to stop this, Thomas Jefferson went to meet with the Sultan of Talini (or whatever the country was called at the time. it was still during the time of the Ottoman empire), anyways he goes and tells this Sultan he would make payments to stop the pirating. now, America had never had any quarrels or problems of the like with the Islams, and asking why they were doing this, the man answer, and i paraphrase, "That the legend of our prophet says that those who do no acknowledge out superiority and control are Infidels and are to be brought to war at all times". he said something of this nature. so all this you hear about how Islam isnt really about all this, well this train of thought has existed in Islam over at LEAST over 200 years. so Religion isnt perfect, and it is quite possible that the world would be a better place without it. :shrug:


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I wanna cross The Rainbow Bridge, and see my fathers in The Golden Hall. They beckon me, to join their feast. In my dreams, I hear their call.


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Offlineevilchipmunk
All your nutsare belong tome.

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Re: Atheism. [Re: PaintedDeath]
    #2917359 - 07/22/04 07:27 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

i never once stated all christians were over bearing




I know ya didn't, man.. sorry. I just kinda tacked that on because some people seem to think that all religion is bad. I disagree, though.

In many ways, religion is like a drug. It needs to be used responsibly, not abused. If you use beliefs to help support your morals, or with some other positive motives, more power to you! If you use it to control others, to wage war in the name of god and destroy peace, you're associating the idea of religion with negativity, chaos, and pain. Are drugs bad? Only if they are in the wrong hands. But you can't blame the drugs for being abused. It's the user that needs to take responsibility for and face the consequences of his or her actions.


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George Dubya Bush's Resume.


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OfflinePaintedDeath
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2917375 - 07/22/04 07:32 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Ah, great point. I agree completely Evilchipmunk. I'm glad that you put it like that. I thank you.


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I wanna cross The Rainbow Bridge, and see my fathers in The Golden Hall. They beckon me, to join their feast. In my dreams, I hear their call.


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Offlineevilchipmunk
All your nutsare belong tome.

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Re: Atheism. [Re: PaintedDeath]
    #2917389 - 07/22/04 07:35 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you too.  Always good to hear someone else's  opinion. :wink:


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George Dubya Bush's Resume.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2917858 - 07/22/04 09:16 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Two non-religious types: One's an asshole, the other isn't

Q: Do you believe in God?

Person #1: Uh, well I was raised Catholic, but I guess these days I'm sort of agnostic.

Person #2: Religion and God is nothing but a crutch for the weak. (Atheist?)

Thoughts?

Personally I have found agnostics or New Agers to be the least hostile towards my religious background (excluding fundamentalism in the Abrahamic faiths). With people like the Infidel Guy, Atheism might come off as hostile.


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Edited by Zahid (07/22/04 09:21 PM)


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Offlinedaba
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2917943 - 07/22/04 09:34 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, we may never know for sure, but recall that I lean towards Occom's Spoon.

We have overwhelming evidence that 1+1 = 2, and we also have overwhelming evidence that lightning is not caused by an omniscent being. However, like all theorems, one can refute them with a single contradictory example. I understand that you mean that God may have already put all these things into motion; to have lighting strike not so much haphazardly, but rather for a reason and a purpose at that specific moment in time.

As a logical human being, I know that nothing can be determined in its entirety. But whatever works shall be the rules of life I abide by. For everyone hoping there is a heaven or hell awaiting us, then do not condemn those who believe that we will become ashes and dust. Likewise, what proof is there to show that this existential dimension is just a ephemeral window for who knows what?

A reason an Atheist may seem bombastic can be easily seen if everyone would take a step back from their religion. Indeed, an Atheist definitely has evidence that a God does not exist on his/her side. More possibilities exist, and again I leave that to the reader to speculate.

More to come...


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Offlineevilchipmunk
All your nutsare belong tome.

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Re: Atheism. [Re: daba]
    #2918173 - 07/22/04 10:12 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

That all depends on what kind of 'omniscient god' you are talking about. :wink:  Maybe god is the universe, and the universe is completely aware of itself on all levels of perception.  How would you know?  The idea of god doesn't necessarily constitute some bearded guy sitting up in the clouds, playing with us like marionettes.  And unless you can really completely understand who or what a god might be (the possibilities of which are more or less inexhaustible), I don't think you have any evidence on whether a god could or could not exist, let alone 'overwhelming evidence'.


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Offlinedaba
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2918278 - 07/22/04 10:25 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

The "God" I refer to is the humanoid figure. I thought that was implied because the thread title is "Atheism." Such is the reason I spoke of God as a human-like figure this whole time.

Surely, we can attribute "God" to the unknown. God goes by many names; such as what you were saying. God can be "the universe" or "fate" as some may call it, or God may be Jesus. Essentially, they all point to the same thing: an answer for the unanswerable, that is, until they are answered by means of science. Then humans must think of more holes in their brain to kindle the spirit of God into their lives.

Now comes the protrusion from this whole topic (which I think may have been discussed already in S&P): Did God create humans or did humans create God?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Atheism. [Re: daba]
    #2918348 - 07/22/04 10:33 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Now comes the protrusion from this whole topic (which I think may have been discussed already in S&P): Did God create humans or did humans create God?

Perhaps it's both and righteousness is the middle-ground.


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Offlineevilchipmunk
All your nutsare belong tome.

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Re: Atheism. [Re: daba]
    #2918435 - 07/22/04 10:45 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Now comes the protrusion from this whole topic (which I think may have been discussed already in S&P): Did God create humans or did humans create God?

My guess is: Both. 

If god is the universe, rather than having created it, we are merely a part of 'it', and in a way 'it' created us.. just as we also 'create' the cells in our bodies.  But we also create our own subjective reality, so the idea of god is a part of that creation, as well.

'Course, that's just my own personal belief. :tongue:  Heh.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2919513 - 07/23/04 05:28 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

you know, i find this post quite useless, i'm an atheist my self, and i've been reading whats goin on in here, and although there are good questions and responses, the bottom line is that i'm an atheist and your a christian. end of religion talk. if we were to talk about the actions of every arrogant asshole in the world, like the one you mentioned,...well, we'd be very stupid.


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Edited by exclusive58 (07/23/04 06:01 AM)


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Atheism. [Re: exclusive58]
    #2919526 - 07/23/04 05:57 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

oh and by the way, i call my self an Atheist only because that's how the society labels me. I grew up in a society that made me believe that God was someone in the sky watching over us, and i decided to go my own way. my religion is myself.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2919624 - 07/23/04 07:44 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"I don't understand is, how in the hell can they overlook the fact that there is also no proof of god's non-existence? If they can't accept the possibility that they could be wrong, doesn't that make them just as close-minded (if not more so, just because of that pretentious attitude) as those that adhere faithfully to different beliefs? "

atheism is a belief, and no it is not pretentious. being full of pretense means making an exaggerated outward or a false show. if they can't accept a remote possibility then that is how they view the world and existence. it could be considered closeminded, but it doesn't make them closeminded people.

we have to remember not to judge each other based only on our beliefs. the idea may be closeminded, but that doesn't say anything about the individual.

"I would just let it go, and leave beliefs out of it, but it really grates on my nerves every time he decides to slander other religions (namely Christianity). I'm not a Christian myself, but it still pisses me off to no end."

just don't let it bother you, that's just your ego taking control right there. you are imposing your will upon the situation, namely, you want this person to listen to you, or even change their viewpoint. use this time when you feel pissed to reflect on how you are feeling. be aware of what you are doing and feeling emotionally, especially when you feel negative. this only causes a barrier between you and your friend, and it looks as though it is making it tough for you two to share the "us" space. your judgement of right and wrong are only complicating things for you more, and doing nothing positive at all.

sure the person is "rebelling" but I went through that stage too, it may pass it may not. that's for this person to decide..no?


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Offlineevilchipmunk
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Re: Atheism. [Re: exclusive58]
    #2919630 - 07/23/04 07:47 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

For one thing,  I'm not a Christian.  :tongue:  And I wasn't trying to bitch about the 'arrogant asshole' for the sake of bitching, I just wanted advice on how to deal with him.


--------------------
George Dubya Bush's Resume.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Atheism. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2919637 - 07/23/04 07:51 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"Big bang. Pretty well established by now. "

some scientists think otherwise


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2919644 - 07/23/04 07:53 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


just don't let it bother you, that's just your ego taking control right there. you are imposing your will upon the situation, namely, you want this person to listen to you, or even change their viewpoint. use this time when you feel pissed to reflect on how you are feeling. be aware of what you are doing and feeling emotionally, especially when you feel negative. this only causes a barrier between you and your friend, and it looks as though it is making it tough for you two to share the "us" space. your judgement of right and wrong are only complicating things for you more, and doing nothing positive at all.





:thumbup:  :thumbup:  :thumbup: Three thumbs up!


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2919652 - 07/23/04 07:58 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I just wanted advice on how to deal with him.





Like Kaiowas said, you don't deal with them. That was my whole point.


--------------------


Edited by exclusive58 (07/23/04 08:04 AM)


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Atheism. [Re: exclusive58]
    #2919658 - 07/23/04 08:01 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"oh and by the way, i call my self an Atheist only because that's how the society labels me. I grew up in a society that made me believe that God was someone in the sky watching over us, and i decided to go my own way. my religion is myself. "

I don't like labels either.  we can shed all these labels that chain us down from really getting to know each other better, I'm taking about in society.  we are concerned with our label that we think this idea is a part of us.

this is not true, we are more than just one idea.  we are a culmination of our moment to moment experiences up until this point.  some people say there isn't a god.  I say cool! 

some poeple think there are prophets...equally as cool! 

some people don't know and say so...also cool!


now that we are all cool here, what do these labels mean?  hehe why not let go of some pride and trade it in for some respect!?!

btw, to that question of whether we created god or god created us, I'd say both.  the grey area!  :wink:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Offlineevilchipmunk
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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2919666 - 07/23/04 08:05 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
atheism is a belief, and no it is not pretentious.  being full of pretense means making an exaggerated outward or a false show. if they can't accept a remote possibility then that is how they view the world and existence. it could be considered closeminded, but it doesn't make them closeminded people.




Maybe pretentious wasn't the word I was looking for?  Always associated it with a cocky attitude.  Anyway, as I mentioned before, I have no problem with this relative (or anyone else's) beliefs.  But I do find it irritating when Atheists, or members of any other religion, slander other religions on the basis that they think theirs is 'right', and others' are 'wrong', etc.
 
Quote:

we have to remember not to judge each other based only on our beliefs.  the idea may be closeminded, but that doesn't say anything about the individual.



   
They can believe whatever they want, and I wouldn't try to stop them.  But when they don't treat others with respect, that's what irks me, and it's hard to tolerate sometimes.

Quote:

just don't let it bother you, that's just your ego taking control right there.  you are imposing your will upon the situation, namely, you want this person to listen to you, or even change their viewpoint. use this time when you feel pissed to reflect on how you are feeling.  be aware of what you are doing and feeling emotionally, especially when you feel negative.  this only causes a barrier between you and your friend, and it looks as though it is making it tough for you two to share the "us" space. your judgement of right and wrong are only complicating things for you more, and doing nothing positive at all.




Maybe you're right on this one.  I guess all I can really do is bite my lip and bear it, and hope the person in question doesn't get shot one day, but it's hard not to let your morals seep through into your actions.  Thanks for your contribution to this post, Kiowas. :thumbup:


--------------------
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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2919675 - 07/23/04 08:12 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I know what you mean by the irk when others are talking trash, but you will display great strength when you get over and accept the person. 

there's was a quote that I really love

"you do as much harm when you take offense as when you give it." -ken keyes

:heart: :sun: :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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OfflineCrazyShroomMan
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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2919769 - 07/23/04 08:55 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Its like me saying i have an invisible porsche in my driveway. You cant prove it doesnt exist.


Im going to go park it in the middle of the street and watch people run into it :evil:


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Offlineevilchipmunk
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Re: Atheism. [Re: CrazyShroomMan]
    #2920391 - 07/23/04 12:29 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Sometimes there's a thin line between being open minded and gullible..  But it's not quite that thin. :wink:


--------------------
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Offlineblowback
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2921204 - 07/23/04 04:11 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

God is us.


--------------------
"Daddy, what's the difference between ignorance and apathy?"

"Son, I don't know, and I don't care"


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2922166 - 07/23/04 09:02 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

That's also Hegel.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Atheism. [Re: blowback]
    #2922200 - 07/23/04 09:21 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Let me run a little something by you, first discovered by Anselm, and later expanded upon by Descart.

God is "that than which nothing greater can be thought of".

Now even the fool would admit that God exists in the mind, as a mental image, phantasm, or limit, as he contemplates the above definition.

Now the fool must ask himself: Is it greater to exist just mentally, or to exist both in the mind and in actuality?

Clearly, if God is "that than which nothing greater can be thought of", then He must exist actually as well as mentally, because actual existance coupled with mental existence is greater than mental existence alone.

What do you think?


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
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Re: Atheism. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2922255 - 07/23/04 09:47 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe God Allah or Ra whatever you want to call him has a sense of humor? Or maybe it was his first try at creating a beaver.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Atheism. [Re: shroomydan]
    #2922328 - 07/23/04 10:25 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

those are some interesting ideas to ponder on. but is it implying that since the idea of god exists, then god itself exists??


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2922338 - 07/23/04 10:34 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

My beliefs are a combination of what I know to be true and what I feel is true. An atheist probably isn't that different. My brother is an atheist, and he doesn't offer any proof for why God doesn't exist. He simply feels that since there's no evidence to support his existence that he probably doesn't exist.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #2922343 - 07/23/04 10:35 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Often watching the Daily Show or Seinfeld I find myself thinking, "This is funny, God is amused through me, He knows why it's funny to me and to others, and He knows why it might not be funny to someone else."


--------------------


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InvisibleFloydian
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2922411 - 07/23/04 11:03 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

My main problem with religion is that almost all seek to personify the forces and grand order of nature in one way or another. I am not agnostic or athiest but I also dont believe in a God.

To me there is a Higher Order to everything and how or why it was set in motion is far beyond human comprehension and is ultimately irrelevant to spirituality. (to me the big bang theory is just as ludicrous as believing in a supreme being)

Basically I'm a spiritual person but not a religious one. I feel that most athiests' main problem with religion is the personification the forces beyond our control and comprehension into a concious supreme being. But I feel most are foolish in throwing away the whole idea of spirituality just because of this.

I just cant accept that "God" (or however you want to label the greater forces that govern this universe) is a concious being.

To me "god" is the laws and patterns that govern nature and whatever force causes things to be the way that they are, but its not concious of itself and it is not a seperate entitiy.

That being said I cannot deny the spiritual nature of this world and that something far beyond our comprehension set this whole thing in motion and there is a divine order to things.


Edited by Floydian (07/23/04 11:22 PM)


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OfflineJPZ
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2922593 - 07/24/04 12:30 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Let me start out by saying this is the most civilised religion deabate I've ever seen...keep it up guys.

I am an atheist, I describe myself that way, but I don't really like labels. Sure there are self-righteous atheists, also christians muslims buddhist animal rights activists conservatives liberals etc etc etc, its just humans, we're like that.

Well, anyway, I'm gonna throw my two cents in. Many people say that believing in a god gives a sense of comfort, and hope. (usually for eternal life, the chance to see loved ones again) But I get these feelings from nature, looking around at the perfection of a tree for example. I don't think a god is necessary.

and remember

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins

I love that quote...think about it.


--------------------
I do declare, I can float in the air.

"If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up."


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Atheism. [Re: JPZ]
    #2923153 - 07/24/04 08:16 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quite right. With all these different gods clamoring for attention and insisting that each one or group is the only one, the most likely reality is that NONE are. 99.9% must be wrong. Far more likely is that 100% are wrong.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Atheism. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2923166 - 07/24/04 08:22 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

kinda like the idea behing agnostics is that humans can't ever really know what god is, or describe it. nothing is certain. human knowledge is only limited to experience.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2923219 - 07/24/04 08:59 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

There are two kinds of atheists. The weak atheist and the strong atheist.

A weak atheist lacks a belief in god, whereas a strong atheist denies the existence of god. There is a big difference.

The weak atheists position is very simple.

There is no proof of god.
Therefore, the belief in god is unwarranted.

Thats it in a nutshell. Now before you fire back with, "Well you can't prove god doesn't exist", thats not the atheists job. You also can't disprove that magic unicorns control the minds of our presidents, but that doesn't make it true. It's a moot point.

Strong atheism is very different, and although there are some good points to strong atheism against many cases of established religion. The generic overall view of "God" can't be accurately addressed.

That is why I consider myself a weak atheist.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Atheism. [Re: looner2]
    #2923240 - 07/24/04 09:18 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

And I consider myself a powerful atheist who will one day rule all the world. Bwa-ha-ha. You will all be MY willing slaves, as you are to your gods now.


--------------------


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Floydian]
    #2923253 - 07/24/04 09:28 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


I just cant accept that "God" (or however you want to label the greater forces that govern this universe) is a concious being.

To me "god" is the laws and patterns that govern nature and whatever force causes things to be the way that they are, but its not concious of itself and it is not a seperate entitiy.

That being said I cannot deny the spiritual nature of this world and that something far beyond our comprehension set this whole thing in motion and there is a divine order to things.





I find this interesting. If God is the sum of all natural laws and patterns, then couldn't the entire collective be interpreted as a conscious being to any outsider ( if possible )? Theres so much change going on within the Universe, and the patterns could be construed as realization of motives.

I say this because I want to call attention to what you are - Are you really conscious, or are you a collection of patterns and limits ? Is your consciousness really more than a mechanical process of evaluation-- a set of instructions executing continuously till your death? It just seems to me that natural laws are just a way of describing what the Universe may not "want" to do, while patterns observed may well be just evidence of what it happens to have done.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Atheism. [Re: vampirism]
    #2923286 - 07/24/04 09:45 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

what a great point of view morrowind!!  definately provided me with some things to think about!



being conscious would mean that I can tell that I am aware.  I can feel out the senses that I have.  now if you want to say our senses are jsut an collection of patterns and limits, I will be confused at the moment and have to think more on this subject :wink:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleHanky
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2923325 - 07/24/04 10:15 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

evilchipmunk said:
What I don't understand is, how in the hell can they overlook the fact that there is also no proof of god's non-existence?




So You've seen god at your local 7/11 have you?

The proof of non existence is in the total absence of presence.

Your logic is flawed, there is plenty of proof of gods non-existence. It's found in our understanding of the origins of the universe,in the way that we can see new stars being born (if god made everything in a week,why is he still working?). There is proof in the age of our planets'rocks and the fossil record.
Smoke some DMT and you'll soon see that "god" is everything,everywhere,everytime and everyone. The idea of an omnicient god is conceited at best and deadly at it's worst.


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2923336 - 07/24/04 10:20 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"It's found in our understanding of the origins of the universe"

which assumes that our understanding is correct

"if god made everything in a week,why is he still working?). "

also one point I'd like to note as well is that just because the monotheistic books amight be logically flawed, that doesn't mean that it is correct. in other words, all this might not havew been made in a week "by god"

would you agree hanky that saying god doesn't exist carries jsut as many assumptions as saying god does exist?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2923375 - 07/24/04 10:41 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure how to bring senses into the picture. Would being conscious really require being able to actively feel out the senses I have? I have not experienced true ego loss, so I'm not sure about that at all.

Some say that we have a sixth sense, and that it takes either great fortune or luck to be able to feel out that sense, yet we all are somehow, whether subconsciously or not, affected by it.

This whole subject is something I'm slowly trying to piece together at the moment, so I can't really provide enough for an entire, clear concept


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InvisibleHanky
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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2923387 - 07/24/04 10:48 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
would you agree hanky that saying god doesn't exist carries jsut as many assumptions as saying god does exist?




NO. What carries more assumption... Mt Everest is hollow and inhabited by giant flying whales. Or, Mt Everest is composed of solid rock?


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2923390 - 07/24/04 10:51 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

the problem is that it just happens to make more sense. Common sense holds its weight only in commonplace issues. Try using common sense in quantum mechanics and relativity. God is the same sort of shit.

Besides which, what do you think your consciousness is? where did it come from? Do you subscribe to the view that your consciousness is nothing more than the image of consciousness within a bunch of executing instructions within your brain?


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2923392 - 07/24/04 10:53 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

true in that situation you described, but we as humans don't have a clue when it comes to god, IMHO.

sure we have the big bang theory, but that still says nothing about where that energy came from

and if that energy has always been there, then what?

who's to say god didn't create the big bang??

in this subject humans can't and won't know 100% either way. since this is the case, saying what is carries assumptions jsut like saying what isn't.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleHanky
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Re: Atheism. [Re: vampirism]
    #2923440 - 07/24/04 11:24 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
the problem is that it just happens to make more sense. Common sense holds its weight only in commonplace issues.



Not true,common sense tells me that god can't exist.
Quote:

Try using common sense in quantum mechanics and relativity. God is the same sort of shit.



Quantum mechanics and relativity are based on theorys that are developed on what we can observe and measure in the universe around us,all science is so. Consider mendalev(sp) who devised the periodic table,he predicted that there would be radio-active elements that had never been seen in nature by his observations of known elements. With the advent of the atomic age his predictions were proved when plutonium etc were produced in nuclear reactors.

Quote:

Besides which, what do you think your consciousness is? where did it come from? Do you subscribe to the view that your consciousness is nothing more than the image of consciousness within a bunch of executing instructions within your brain?




I'm not sure exactly what your trying to say there. If you're asking if i think that the chemical and electrical activity in my brain is directly responsible for my conciousness then yes i think exactly that. I can prove this by observation. I have a brain and i'm consious,a rock has no brain and is not concious.


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2923475 - 07/24/04 11:43 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

NO. What carries more assumption... Mt Everest is hollow and inhabited by giant flying whales. Or, Mt Everest is composed of solid rock?
But if you shift your question a littlebit, like:
What carries more assumption: Mt Everest is composed of solid rock, or something else... ?
I strongly take the 'something else' solution (different minerals, water, caverns,...).
It all is a question of the point of view. Our senses and our minds are sharpened to recognize earthly connections. Our connection to the earth (especially in the middle of our life) is just more profound then to the spiritual realms.
But our spirit has another 'home'. It's for it to see the spiritual connections which many people have lost to see.
A good example, a kind of evidence that we are not entirely earthly is that speaking: We were born from god and will return to him. Look at the majority of childs and the old people.
There is an eternal flame burning inside of us. It's a very individual thing, how we treat it, but it never will totally vanish. This flame is a part of something, what makes us see things different.

And for me, in reality, it is not that much difference. I think spirit and matter will meet and make a lot of conclusions and explanations possible.

I hope, despite my limited english, you get an idea of what I am talking about :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2923477 - 07/24/04 11:44 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

What common sense tells you doesn't have to be true. Common sense always talks, but it talks out of its ass when it's not talking about an every day street-smarts type of thing. God is based on theories of what we can experience and observe in the universe around us.

For the last part, your brain is the process of billions if not more completely random occurances which happen to be "useful" at the current point in time. It works using either automatic or acquired algorithms - is your consciousness just the process of executing those algorithms? The chemical and electrical activity in your brain is just the mechanical process of executing those algorithms.

You cannot prove this by observation. Show me your brain and how it is making your consciousness, using your senses alone. Simply put, you cannot prove the usefulness of your own brain, because you'd apparently have to use your brain to do it. You'd need external observation, which I, a separate entity, would need to provide.

Ok, lets say you DO somehow prove your consciousness. How can you prove a rock is not conscious if you cannot directly link consciousness to having a brain + nervous system? Because it is not executing an algorithm? Well maybe it is, just very slowly, and according to the flow of mineral in the rock. Some say even rocks have a spirit associated with them. Others say that consciousness is at different levels - hell, astral projection just shifts consciousness to a different level.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Atheism. [Re: vampirism]
    #2923511 - 07/24/04 11:57 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

For a detailed study of consciousness from an atheistic and purely scientific point of view see Francis Crick's "The Astonishing Hypothesis". I say atheistic because he comes to the conclusion that the human brain is quite suitably complex to allow consciousness without any recourse to the idea of a soul. Your understanding of how the brain works is very wrong if you think the processes are the least bit random.


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InvisibleHanky
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Re: Atheism. [Re: vampirism]
    #2923614 - 07/24/04 12:51 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

What common sense tells you doesn't have to be true. Common sense always talks, but it talks out of its ass when it's not talking about an every day street-smarts type of thing. God is based on theories of what we can experience and observe in the universe around us.

Wrong,the christian concept of god is based on two books. Your comment about common sense talking from its ass makes no practical sense.

For the last part, your brain is the process of billions if not more completely random occurances which happen to be "useful" at the current point in time. It works using either automatic or acquired algorithms - is your consciousness just the process of executing those algorithms? The chemical and electrical activity in your brain is just the mechanical process of executing those algorithms.

So if our brains are not responsible for our consciousness just why do we have them?

You cannot prove this by observation. Show me your brain and how it is making your consciousness, using your senses alone. Simply put, you cannot prove the usefulness of your own brain, because you'd apparently have to use your brain to do it. You'd need external observation, which I, a separate entity, would need to provide.

Again you refuse to make sense,of course i need to use my brain to realise my own consciousness and thus confirm its usefulness to me,also any amount of external observation on your part would be useless to me without my brain,this again confirms that my brain is usefull to me.

Ok, lets say you DO somehow prove your consciousness. How can you prove a rock is not conscious if you cannot directly link consciousness to having a brain + nervous system? Because it is not executing an algorithm? Well maybe it is, just very slowly, and according to the flow of mineral in the rock.

sorry but minerals do not flow within solidified rock
Some say even rocks have a spirit associated with them. Others say that consciousness is at different levels - hell, astral projection just shifts consciousness to a different level.

I haven't denied the existense of spirit,which is not the same as consciousness,what i deny is the existence of a singular being which is supposed to have created everything,the idea of a god with such ability is ludicris and insults the beauty of the universe.


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2923739 - 07/24/04 02:10 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wrong,the christian concept of god is based on two books. Your comment about common sense talking from its ass makes no practical sense.




You think that those books popped out of nowhere? Hear of Zionism? These theories have been passed down generation to generation as fact.

Quote:

So if our brains are not responsible for our consciousness just why do we have them?




To process data from our senses. That is beside the point anyway. I was leaving open the slight possibility that you are imagining your brain and that reality is internal.

Quote:


Again you refuse to make sense,of course i need to use my brain to realise my own consciousness and thus confirm its usefulness to me,also any amount of external observation on your part would be useless to me without my brain,this again confirms that my brain is usefull to me.



see above. I had to say it that way otherwise i would have run into a severe grammar loophole.

Quote:

sorry but minerals do not flow within solidified rock




This is not necessarily true on a geological timescale. Besides which, rocks can soak up moisture. Yes, an isolated rock which has been dehydrated and encased in a perfectly controlled spot will have no molecular motion in it.

Quote:

I haven't denied the existense of spirit,which is not the same as consciousness,what i deny is the existence of a singular being which is supposed to have created everything,the idea of a god with such ability is ludicris and insults the beauty of the universe.



Yes, but spiritual consciousness is possible.

And what if the Universe is a massive consciousness conscious in exactly the way that you are?

I hate that the concept of God as an entity has been tarnished by the humanlike-God found in many religions. Tell me why the entire Universe can't be an entity. After all, your cells themselves are acting individually in a system. Maybe, just maybe, they are conscious to a degree.


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
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Re: Atheism. [Re: vampirism]
    #2923747 - 07/24/04 02:22 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Very well said Marrowmind. I was thinking along the same lines but couln't put it so eloquently into words.


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Offlineevilchipmunk
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2924176 - 07/24/04 05:37 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The proof of non existence is in the total absence of presence.




Just because you can't see it means there's no way it can exist? Do we really fully understand the 'orgins' of our universe? And must the bible and other writings be taken at face value? In no way am I trying to suggest that there definitely IS a deistic god (or gods). But honestly, we can only see and understand very little about our universe. In the field of science , we've only just scratched the surface. And who's saying that god and science can't necessarily co-exist? Supposing god is everything, everywhere, everytime and everyone, who's to say that it isn't all a wholly concious entity?

Sorry if some of this has already been stated by others.. I don't have time to read it all just at this moment, but thank you all for contributing to this thread!


--------------------
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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2924181 - 07/24/04 05:42 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"Wrong,the christian concept of god is based on two books. Your comment about common sense talking from its ass makes no practical sense. "

well said hanky, my point is that the christian, or even the muslim, or even jewish, or eve nhe 4D definiion of god anren't the only one's out there.  in other words, there are more possibilities.

"So if our brains are not responsible for our consciousness just why do we have them?"

:thumbup:

"I haven't denied the existense of spirit,which is not the same as consciousness,what i deny is the existence of a singular being which is supposed to have created everything,the idea of a god with such ability is ludicris and insults the beauty of the universe. "

now I get your point :wink:.  btw, what about saying god is everything.  not just one god that created one universe, but an infinite god that created an infinite universe.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2924271 - 07/24/04 06:23 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

The proof of non existence is in the total absence of presence.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

(if god made everything in a week,why is he still working?. There is proof in the age of our planets'rocks and the fossil record.

You are only talking about one particular fundamentalist groups' concept of God out of the multitudes of opinions on the nature of God found even here among S&Pers.

Smoke some DMT and you'll soon see that "god" is everything,everywhere,everytime and everyone. The idea of an omnicient god is conceited at best and deadly at it's worst.

God is not omniscient but is "everything, everywhere, everytime and everyone"?
Sure sounds omniscient to me.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Jellric]
    #2924286 - 07/24/04 06:30 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

God is nothing, nowhere, never and no one. It is an utterly useless and destructive construct


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Atheism. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2924295 - 07/24/04 06:35 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

The sun is purple and the sky is red.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Atheism. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2924347 - 07/24/04 07:10 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

One word: OmNil
(means everything is nothing and vice versa)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2924634 - 07/24/04 09:16 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I would have said human knowledge is limited by what we can describe with words. We can only know something if we can put it in words because we think in terms of language.

This is why all descriptions of 'god' or heightened states of awareness seem to be lacking and insufficient. Is it possible to fully describe non-verbal reality with words? And if not, why make rules, laws, dogmas out of half-baked ideas, abstract interpretations?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Jellric]
    #2924710 - 07/24/04 09:57 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"Smoke some DMT and you'll soon see that "god" is everything,everywhere,everytime and everyone. The idea of an omnicient god is conceited at best and deadly at it's worst."

Using hallucinogens just reinforces what we already believe IF what we already believe is proving functional. Give a devout Christian acid or DMT and he will be even more devout...give an atheist acid or DMT and it will reinforce his opinion by making him aware of the full force of his absolute logic.


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Offlinewrong
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Jellric]
    #2924903 - 07/24/04 11:22 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Jellric said:
God is not omniscient but is "everything, everywhere, everytime and everyone"?
Sure sounds omniscient to me.



my concept of god is not of something which is conscious, so even though i think god is everything it would not be omniscient


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Atheism. [Re: wrong]
    #2924935 - 07/24/04 11:32 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

my concept of god is not of something which is conscious, so even though i think god is everything it would not be omniscient

To me, if I am conscious and my god is not, that is not really a god.


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OfflineJPZ
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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2925018 - 07/25/04 12:30 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
true in that situation you described, but we as humans don't have a clue when it comes to god, IMHO.

sure we have the big bang theory, but that still says nothing about where that energy came from

and if that energy has always been there, then what?

who's to say god didn't create the big bang??

in this subject humans can't and won't know 100% either way. since this is the case, saying what is carries assumptions jsut like saying what isn't.




I see your (and others on this topics) point.  Many say "well, you can't prove that (a or some) god/s don't exist.  This is a false positive.  As someone else pointed out just saying something exists because you can't prove that it doesn't make it exist.  Every kid believes in Santa, who is to say that there isn't a fat guy living at the north pole?

  Many also say that their version of god is not the version from books (incidentally, it would be useful to many to remember that these were books written by humans, they were not dropped out of the sky one fine morning.) 

  They say that god is everything, the universe and it's beginnings are an unknowable mystery that we can never fully understand.  I say no;  we are in the process of understanding. (not god, but everything) 

Remember, only a few centuries ago, the majority were ADAMANT that the sun orbited the earth.  Galileo proved them wrong...how?  With the scientific method.  Right now, no human knows what was before the big-bang (and some dispute the big bang)  But does this mean we should just give in and accept that we will never know?  No!  Eventually some genius is going to figure it out.  We don't need a god to explain us, our world, our universe.  It just is, we are just a small speck in infinite time...(sorry for the cliche)

:grin: :thumbup:

keep up the debate guys...I'm loving it!

:rasta:

"The Church says that the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church."
Ferdinand Magellan (1480-1521) Portuguese & Spanish explorer


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Re: Atheism. [Re: JPZ]
    #2925086 - 07/25/04 01:10 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I find it funny that religion exists in a community such as this, where a typical mindset can be explained in a hackneyed quote such like: "Think for yourself."

Paradoxically, what is religion but your life being fed to you through a book and a man on an altar?


--------------------
Fold for The Shroomery!


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InvisibleFloydian
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Re: Atheism. [Re: daba]
    #2925470 - 07/25/04 06:16 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Its rather .... interesting ... to see people who dont practice religion and have little to no concept of what it means to practice a religion telling people about the nature of religion.


Edited by Floydian (07/25/04 06:31 AM)


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Offlineevilchipmunk
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Re: Atheism. [Re: JPZ]
    #2925536 - 07/25/04 08:45 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Many say "well, you can't prove that (a or some) god/s don't exist. This is a false positive. As someone else pointed out just saying something exists because you can't prove that it doesn't make it exist. Every kid believes in Santa, who is to say that there isn't a fat guy living at the north pole?




If you said "you can't prove that a god doesn't exist, so he must exist", THAT is a false positive.  If you are saying, "You can't prove a god doesn't exist, so he MIGHT exist", that is something completely different.  As far as Santa goes.. well, a fat guy sitting in the snow at the north pole is a little more tangible than a god might be.

Quote:

we are just a small speck in infinite time...




We could also be a mind-bogglingly huge speck.  Things go inward, as well as outward, and there's only so far we can see in either direction.  Time-wise.. well, only the present moment really exists.  And there is no 'moment' that is more or less significant than any other, if you think beyond your own personal circumstances. :wink:


--------------------
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InvisibleHanky
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Re: Atheism. [Re: vampirism]
    #2925542 - 07/25/04 08:49 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
Quote:


And what if the Universe is a massive consciousness conscious in exactly the way that you are?

I hate that the concept of God as an entity has been tarnished by the humanlike-God found in many religions. Tell me why the entire Universe can't be an entity. After all, your cells themselves are acting individually in a system. Maybe, just maybe, they are conscious to a degree.




If you read what i have posted in the DMT thread you'll find that you have summed up my positon on the subject.

Where you slipped up is when you presumed that an athiest is devoid of spirituality.

I'm an athiest in the classic sense,a blaspheamer.
There is no god,the bible was an opera based on morals that got mistaken for reality by a group of fools in sandals.

The concept of a creationist god should be rejected vocaly wherever it is encountered. Next time you see some nice christians tell them they are fucking stupid and smack them hard between the eyes with a small hammer.


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2925543 - 07/25/04 08:51 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"If you said "you can't prove that a god doesn't exist, so he must exist", THAT is a false positive. If you are saying, "You can't prove a god doesn't exist, so he MIGHT exist", that is something completely different. As far as Santa goes.. well, a fat guy sitting in the snow at the north pole is a little more tangible than a god might be. "

how about

"you can't prove god doesn't exist so you can't say it doesn't exist."


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleHanky
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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2925553 - 07/25/04 08:57 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I phoned Mrs God today,she said "that usless good for nothing drunk has been locked away for DUI's" I guess that solves the argument


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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Offlineevilchipmunk
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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2925568 - 07/25/04 09:13 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
how about

"you can't prove god doesn't exist so you can't say it doesn't exist."




Exactly.  You can believe whatever you want, but without proof it's just a belief, and not worth arguing over. :wink:


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Re: Atheism. [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #2925581 - 07/25/04 09:24 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, but I wonder, what made someones believe, without arguments or proof, so very strong...

edit: I think, most people fall upon the false assumption that science and a 'godly' believe does exclude eachothers...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (07/25/04 09:31 AM)


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Re: Atheism. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2925589 - 07/25/04 09:31 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

FEAR.


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2925591 - 07/25/04 09:32 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sure many buddhists are afraid.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2925599 - 07/25/04 09:38 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Good point, true for both sides. So let's try to overcome fear ? :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2925605 - 07/25/04 09:42 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, I could believe that if you have no assumptions on the connectivities of reality, you flee either in some over-spiritualized godly believe or in some over-materialized scientific belief.
But is fear also the barrier between them ?

I don't think that these both concepts are incompatible...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2928192 - 07/26/04 09:58 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
I'm sure many buddhists are afraid.




We aren't talking about Buddhism.

Stay on topic.


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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