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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleHanky
wiffle bat.
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Posts: 56,993
Loc: Great Southern Land.
Re: Atheism. [Re: vampirism]
    #2923440 - 07/24/04 11:24 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
the problem is that it just happens to make more sense. Common sense holds its weight only in commonplace issues.



Not true,common sense tells me that god can't exist.
Quote:

Try using common sense in quantum mechanics and relativity. God is the same sort of shit.



Quantum mechanics and relativity are based on theorys that are developed on what we can observe and measure in the universe around us,all science is so. Consider mendalev(sp) who devised the periodic table,he predicted that there would be radio-active elements that had never been seen in nature by his observations of known elements. With the advent of the atomic age his predictions were proved when plutonium etc were produced in nuclear reactors.

Quote:

Besides which, what do you think your consciousness is? where did it come from? Do you subscribe to the view that your consciousness is nothing more than the image of consciousness within a bunch of executing instructions within your brain?




I'm not sure exactly what your trying to say there. If you're asking if i think that the chemical and electrical activity in my brain is directly responsible for my conciousness then yes i think exactly that. I can prove this by observation. I have a brain and i'm consious,a rock has no brain and is not concious.


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2923475 - 07/24/04 11:43 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

NO. What carries more assumption... Mt Everest is hollow and inhabited by giant flying whales. Or, Mt Everest is composed of solid rock?
But if you shift your question a littlebit, like:
What carries more assumption: Mt Everest is composed of solid rock, or something else... ?
I strongly take the 'something else' solution (different minerals, water, caverns,...).
It all is a question of the point of view. Our senses and our minds are sharpened to recognize earthly connections. Our connection to the earth (especially in the middle of our life) is just more profound then to the spiritual realms.
But our spirit has another 'home'. It's for it to see the spiritual connections which many people have lost to see.
A good example, a kind of evidence that we are not entirely earthly is that speaking: We were born from god and will return to him. Look at the majority of childs and the old people.
There is an eternal flame burning inside of us. It's a very individual thing, how we treat it, but it never will totally vanish. This flame is a part of something, what makes us see things different.

And for me, in reality, it is not that much difference. I think spirit and matter will meet and make a lot of conclusions and explanations possible.

I hope, despite my limited english, you get an idea of what I am talking about :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2923477 - 07/24/04 11:44 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

What common sense tells you doesn't have to be true. Common sense always talks, but it talks out of its ass when it's not talking about an every day street-smarts type of thing. God is based on theories of what we can experience and observe in the universe around us.

For the last part, your brain is the process of billions if not more completely random occurances which happen to be "useful" at the current point in time. It works using either automatic or acquired algorithms - is your consciousness just the process of executing those algorithms? The chemical and electrical activity in your brain is just the mechanical process of executing those algorithms.

You cannot prove this by observation. Show me your brain and how it is making your consciousness, using your senses alone. Simply put, you cannot prove the usefulness of your own brain, because you'd apparently have to use your brain to do it. You'd need external observation, which I, a separate entity, would need to provide.

Ok, lets say you DO somehow prove your consciousness. How can you prove a rock is not conscious if you cannot directly link consciousness to having a brain + nervous system? Because it is not executing an algorithm? Well maybe it is, just very slowly, and according to the flow of mineral in the rock. Some say even rocks have a spirit associated with them. Others say that consciousness is at different levels - hell, astral projection just shifts consciousness to a different level.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Atheism. [Re: vampirism]
    #2923511 - 07/24/04 11:57 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

For a detailed study of consciousness from an atheistic and purely scientific point of view see Francis Crick's "The Astonishing Hypothesis". I say atheistic because he comes to the conclusion that the human brain is quite suitably complex to allow consciousness without any recourse to the idea of a soul. Your understanding of how the brain works is very wrong if you think the processes are the least bit random.


--------------------


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InvisibleHanky
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Re: Atheism. [Re: vampirism]
    #2923614 - 07/24/04 12:51 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

What common sense tells you doesn't have to be true. Common sense always talks, but it talks out of its ass when it's not talking about an every day street-smarts type of thing. God is based on theories of what we can experience and observe in the universe around us.

Wrong,the christian concept of god is based on two books. Your comment about common sense talking from its ass makes no practical sense.

For the last part, your brain is the process of billions if not more completely random occurances which happen to be "useful" at the current point in time. It works using either automatic or acquired algorithms - is your consciousness just the process of executing those algorithms? The chemical and electrical activity in your brain is just the mechanical process of executing those algorithms.

So if our brains are not responsible for our consciousness just why do we have them?

You cannot prove this by observation. Show me your brain and how it is making your consciousness, using your senses alone. Simply put, you cannot prove the usefulness of your own brain, because you'd apparently have to use your brain to do it. You'd need external observation, which I, a separate entity, would need to provide.

Again you refuse to make sense,of course i need to use my brain to realise my own consciousness and thus confirm its usefulness to me,also any amount of external observation on your part would be useless to me without my brain,this again confirms that my brain is usefull to me.

Ok, lets say you DO somehow prove your consciousness. How can you prove a rock is not conscious if you cannot directly link consciousness to having a brain + nervous system? Because it is not executing an algorithm? Well maybe it is, just very slowly, and according to the flow of mineral in the rock.

sorry but minerals do not flow within solidified rock
Some say even rocks have a spirit associated with them. Others say that consciousness is at different levels - hell, astral projection just shifts consciousness to a different level.

I haven't denied the existense of spirit,which is not the same as consciousness,what i deny is the existence of a singular being which is supposed to have created everything,the idea of a god with such ability is ludicris and insults the beauty of the universe.


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]




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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2923739 - 07/24/04 02:10 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wrong,the christian concept of god is based on two books. Your comment about common sense talking from its ass makes no practical sense.




You think that those books popped out of nowhere? Hear of Zionism? These theories have been passed down generation to generation as fact.

Quote:

So if our brains are not responsible for our consciousness just why do we have them?




To process data from our senses. That is beside the point anyway. I was leaving open the slight possibility that you are imagining your brain and that reality is internal.

Quote:


Again you refuse to make sense,of course i need to use my brain to realise my own consciousness and thus confirm its usefulness to me,also any amount of external observation on your part would be useless to me without my brain,this again confirms that my brain is usefull to me.



see above. I had to say it that way otherwise i would have run into a severe grammar loophole.

Quote:

sorry but minerals do not flow within solidified rock




This is not necessarily true on a geological timescale. Besides which, rocks can soak up moisture. Yes, an isolated rock which has been dehydrated and encased in a perfectly controlled spot will have no molecular motion in it.

Quote:

I haven't denied the existense of spirit,which is not the same as consciousness,what i deny is the existence of a singular being which is supposed to have created everything,the idea of a god with such ability is ludicris and insults the beauty of the universe.



Yes, but spiritual consciousness is possible.

And what if the Universe is a massive consciousness conscious in exactly the way that you are?

I hate that the concept of God as an entity has been tarnished by the humanlike-God found in many religions. Tell me why the entire Universe can't be an entity. After all, your cells themselves are acting individually in a system. Maybe, just maybe, they are conscious to a degree.


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
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Registered: 01/31/03
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Re: Atheism. [Re: vampirism]
    #2923747 - 07/24/04 02:22 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Very well said Marrowmind. I was thinking along the same lines but couln't put it so eloquently into words.


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Offlineevilchipmunk
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Registered: 05/13/04
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2924176 - 07/24/04 05:37 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The proof of non existence is in the total absence of presence.




Just because you can't see it means there's no way it can exist? Do we really fully understand the 'orgins' of our universe? And must the bible and other writings be taken at face value? In no way am I trying to suggest that there definitely IS a deistic god (or gods). But honestly, we can only see and understand very little about our universe. In the field of science , we've only just scratched the surface. And who's saying that god and science can't necessarily co-exist? Supposing god is everything, everywhere, everytime and everyone, who's to say that it isn't all a wholly concious entity?

Sorry if some of this has already been stated by others.. I don't have time to read it all just at this moment, but thank you all for contributing to this thread!


--------------------
George Dubya Bush's Resume.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2924181 - 07/24/04 05:42 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"Wrong,the christian concept of god is based on two books. Your comment about common sense talking from its ass makes no practical sense. "

well said hanky, my point is that the christian, or even the muslim, or even jewish, or eve nhe 4D definiion of god anren't the only one's out there.  in other words, there are more possibilities.

"So if our brains are not responsible for our consciousness just why do we have them?"

:thumbup:

"I haven't denied the existense of spirit,which is not the same as consciousness,what i deny is the existence of a singular being which is supposed to have created everything,the idea of a god with such ability is ludicris and insults the beauty of the universe. "

now I get your point :wink:.  btw, what about saying god is everything.  not just one god that created one universe, but an infinite god that created an infinite universe.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
    #2924271 - 07/24/04 06:23 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

The proof of non existence is in the total absence of presence.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

(if god made everything in a week,why is he still working?. There is proof in the age of our planets'rocks and the fossil record.

You are only talking about one particular fundamentalist groups' concept of God out of the multitudes of opinions on the nature of God found even here among S&Pers.

Smoke some DMT and you'll soon see that "god" is everything,everywhere,everytime and everyone. The idea of an omnicient god is conceited at best and deadly at it's worst.

God is not omniscient but is "everything, everywhere, everytime and everyone"?
Sure sounds omniscient to me.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Jellric]
    #2924286 - 07/24/04 06:30 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

God is nothing, nowhere, never and no one. It is an utterly useless and destructive construct


--------------------


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Atheism. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2924295 - 07/24/04 06:35 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

The sun is purple and the sky is red.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Atheism. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2924347 - 07/24/04 07:10 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

One word: OmNil
(means everything is nothing and vice versa)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2924634 - 07/24/04 09:16 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I would have said human knowledge is limited by what we can describe with words. We can only know something if we can put it in words because we think in terms of language.

This is why all descriptions of 'god' or heightened states of awareness seem to be lacking and insufficient. Is it possible to fully describe non-verbal reality with words? And if not, why make rules, laws, dogmas out of half-baked ideas, abstract interpretations?


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Jellric]
    #2924710 - 07/24/04 09:57 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"Smoke some DMT and you'll soon see that "god" is everything,everywhere,everytime and everyone. The idea of an omnicient god is conceited at best and deadly at it's worst."

Using hallucinogens just reinforces what we already believe IF what we already believe is proving functional. Give a devout Christian acid or DMT and he will be even more devout...give an atheist acid or DMT and it will reinforce his opinion by making him aware of the full force of his absolute logic.


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Offlinewrong
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Jellric]
    #2924903 - 07/24/04 11:22 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Jellric said:
God is not omniscient but is "everything, everywhere, everytime and everyone"?
Sure sounds omniscient to me.



my concept of god is not of something which is conscious, so even though i think god is everything it would not be omniscient


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

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Re: Atheism. [Re: wrong]
    #2924935 - 07/24/04 11:32 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

my concept of god is not of something which is conscious, so even though i think god is everything it would not be omniscient

To me, if I am conscious and my god is not, that is not really a god.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineJPZ
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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2925018 - 07/25/04 12:30 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
true in that situation you described, but we as humans don't have a clue when it comes to god, IMHO.

sure we have the big bang theory, but that still says nothing about where that energy came from

and if that energy has always been there, then what?

who's to say god didn't create the big bang??

in this subject humans can't and won't know 100% either way. since this is the case, saying what is carries assumptions jsut like saying what isn't.




I see your (and others on this topics) point.  Many say "well, you can't prove that (a or some) god/s don't exist.  This is a false positive.  As someone else pointed out just saying something exists because you can't prove that it doesn't make it exist.  Every kid believes in Santa, who is to say that there isn't a fat guy living at the north pole?

  Many also say that their version of god is not the version from books (incidentally, it would be useful to many to remember that these were books written by humans, they were not dropped out of the sky one fine morning.) 

  They say that god is everything, the universe and it's beginnings are an unknowable mystery that we can never fully understand.  I say no;  we are in the process of understanding. (not god, but everything) 

Remember, only a few centuries ago, the majority were ADAMANT that the sun orbited the earth.  Galileo proved them wrong...how?  With the scientific method.  Right now, no human knows what was before the big-bang (and some dispute the big bang)  But does this mean we should just give in and accept that we will never know?  No!  Eventually some genius is going to figure it out.  We don't need a god to explain us, our world, our universe.  It just is, we are just a small speck in infinite time...(sorry for the cliche)

:grin: :thumbup:

keep up the debate guys...I'm loving it!

:rasta:

"The Church says that the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church."
Ferdinand Magellan (1480-1521) Portuguese & Spanish explorer


--------------------
I do declare, I can float in the air.

"If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up."


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Offlinedaba
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Re: Atheism. [Re: JPZ]
    #2925086 - 07/25/04 01:10 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I find it funny that religion exists in a community such as this, where a typical mindset can be explained in a hackneyed quote such like: "Think for yourself."

Paradoxically, what is religion but your life being fed to you through a book and a man on an altar?


--------------------
Fold for The Shroomery!


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InvisibleFloydian
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Re: Atheism. [Re: daba]
    #2925470 - 07/25/04 06:16 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Its rather .... interesting ... to see people who dont practice religion and have little to no concept of what it means to practice a religion telling people about the nature of religion.


Edited by Floydian (07/25/04 06:31 AM)


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