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shroomydan
exshroomerite


Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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That's also Hegel.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite


Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Atheism. [Re: blowback]
#2922200 - 07/23/04 09:21 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Let me run a little something by you, first discovered by Anselm, and later expanded upon by Descart.
God is "that than which nothing greater can be thought of".
Now even the fool would admit that God exists in the mind, as a mental image, phantasm, or limit, as he contemplates the above definition.
Now the fool must ask himself: Is it greater to exist just mentally, or to exist both in the mind and in actuality?
Clearly, if God is "that than which nothing greater can be thought of", then He must exist actually as well as mentally, because actual existance coupled with mental existence is greater than mental existence alone.
What do you think?
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Meat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
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Maybe God Allah or Ra whatever you want to call him has a sense of humor? Or maybe it was his first try at creating a beaver.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette


Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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those are some interesting ideas to ponder on. but is it implying that since the idea of god exists, then god itself exists??
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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My beliefs are a combination of what I know to be true and what I feel is true. An atheist probably isn't that different. My brother is an atheist, and he doesn't offer any proof for why God doesn't exist. He simply feels that since there's no evidence to support his existence that he probably doesn't exist.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Zahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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Often watching the Daily Show or Seinfeld I find myself thinking, "This is funny, God is amused through me, He knows why it's funny to me and to others, and He knows why it might not be funny to someone else."
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Floydian
veteran
Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 1,022
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My main problem with religion is that almost all seek to personify the forces and grand order of nature in one way or another. I am not agnostic or athiest but I also dont believe in a God. To me there is a Higher Order to everything and how or why it was set in motion is far beyond human comprehension and is ultimately irrelevant to spirituality. (to me the big bang theory is just as ludicrous as believing in a supreme being) Basically I'm a spiritual person but not a religious one. I feel that most athiests' main problem with religion is the personification the forces beyond our control and comprehension into a concious supreme being. But I feel most are foolish in throwing away the whole idea of spirituality just because of this. I just cant accept that "God" (or however you want to label the greater forces that govern this universe) is a concious being. To me "god" is the laws and patterns that govern nature and whatever force causes things to be the way that they are, but its not concious of itself and it is not a seperate entitiy. That being said I cannot deny the spiritual nature of this world and that something far beyond our comprehension set this whole thing in motion and there is a divine order to things.
Edited by Floydian (07/23/04 11:22 PM)
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JPZ
lost in mexico
Registered: 06/28/04
Posts: 193
Loc: Monterrey
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
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Let me start out by saying this is the most civilised religion deabate I've ever seen...keep it up guys.
I am an atheist, I describe myself that way, but I don't really like labels. Sure there are self-righteous atheists, also christians muslims buddhist animal rights activists conservatives liberals etc etc etc, its just humans, we're like that.
Well, anyway, I'm gonna throw my two cents in. Many people say that believing in a god gives a sense of comfort, and hope. (usually for eternal life, the chance to see loved ones again) But I get these feelings from nature, looking around at the perfection of a tree for example. I don't think a god is necessary.
and remember
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins
I love that quote...think about it.
-------------------- I do declare, I can float in the air. "If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up."
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Atheism. [Re: JPZ]
#2923153 - 07/24/04 08:16 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quite right. With all these different gods clamoring for attention and insisting that each one or group is the only one, the most likely reality is that NONE are. 99.9% must be wrong. Far more likely is that 100% are wrong.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette


Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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kinda like the idea behing agnostics is that humans can't ever really know what god is, or describe it. nothing is certain. human knowledge is only limited to experience.
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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looner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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There are two kinds of atheists. The weak atheist and the strong atheist.
A weak atheist lacks a belief in god, whereas a strong atheist denies the existence of god. There is a big difference.
The weak atheists position is very simple.
There is no proof of god. Therefore, the belief in god is unwarranted.
Thats it in a nutshell. Now before you fire back with, "Well you can't prove god doesn't exist", thats not the atheists job. You also can't disprove that magic unicorns control the minds of our presidents, but that doesn't make it true. It's a moot point.
Strong atheism is very different, and although there are some good points to strong atheism against many cases of established religion. The generic overall view of "God" can't be accurately addressed.
That is why I consider myself a weak atheist.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Atheism. [Re: looner2]
#2923240 - 07/24/04 09:18 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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And I consider myself a powerful atheist who will one day rule all the world. Bwa-ha-ha. You will all be MY willing slaves, as you are to your gods now.
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vampirism
Stranger


Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Floydian]
#2923253 - 07/24/04 09:28 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
I just cant accept that "God" (or however you want to label the greater forces that govern this universe) is a concious being.
To me "god" is the laws and patterns that govern nature and whatever force causes things to be the way that they are, but its not concious of itself and it is not a seperate entitiy.
That being said I cannot deny the spiritual nature of this world and that something far beyond our comprehension set this whole thing in motion and there is a divine order to things.
I find this interesting. If God is the sum of all natural laws and patterns, then couldn't the entire collective be interpreted as a conscious being to any outsider ( if possible )? Theres so much change going on within the Universe, and the patterns could be construed as realization of motives.
I say this because I want to call attention to what you are - Are you really conscious, or are you a collection of patterns and limits ? Is your consciousness really more than a mechanical process of evaluation-- a set of instructions executing continuously till your death? It just seems to me that natural laws are just a way of describing what the Universe may not "want" to do, while patterns observed may well be just evidence of what it happens to have done.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette


Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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what a great point of view morrowind!! definately provided me with some things to think about!
being conscious would mean that I can tell that I am aware. I can feel out the senses that I have. now if you want to say our senses are jsut an collection of patterns and limits, I will be confused at the moment and have to think more on this subject
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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Hanky
wiffle bat.

Registered: 08/30/03
Posts: 56,993
Loc: Great Southern Land.
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Quote:
evilchipmunk said: What I don't understand is, how in the hell can they overlook the fact that there is also no proof of god's non-existence?
So You've seen god at your local 7/11 have you?
The proof of non existence is in the total absence of presence.
Your logic is flawed, there is plenty of proof of gods non-existence. It's found in our understanding of the origins of the universe,in the way that we can see new stars being born (if god made everything in a week,why is he still working?). There is proof in the age of our planets'rocks and the fossil record. Smoke some DMT and you'll soon see that "god" is everything,everywhere,everytime and everyone. The idea of an omnicient god is conceited at best and deadly at it's worst.
-------------------- Coaster is an idiot... [quote]Coaster said: but i thnk everything thats pure is white? [/quote]
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kaiowas
lest we baguette


Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
#2923336 - 07/24/04 10:20 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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"It's found in our understanding of the origins of the universe"
which assumes that our understanding is correct
"if god made everything in a week,why is he still working?). "
also one point I'd like to note as well is that just because the monotheistic books amight be logically flawed, that doesn't mean that it is correct. in other words, all this might not havew been made in a week "by god"
would you agree hanky that saying god doesn't exist carries jsut as many assumptions as saying god does exist?
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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vampirism
Stranger


Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
#2923375 - 07/24/04 10:41 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Honestly, I'm not 100% sure how to bring senses into the picture. Would being conscious really require being able to actively feel out the senses I have? I have not experienced true ego loss, so I'm not sure about that at all.
Some say that we have a sixth sense, and that it takes either great fortune or luck to be able to feel out that sense, yet we all are somehow, whether subconsciously or not, affected by it.
This whole subject is something I'm slowly trying to piece together at the moment, so I can't really provide enough for an entire, clear concept
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Hanky
wiffle bat.

Registered: 08/30/03
Posts: 56,993
Loc: Great Southern Land.
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Re: Atheism. [Re: kaiowas]
#2923387 - 07/24/04 10:48 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
kaiowas said: would you agree hanky that saying god doesn't exist carries jsut as many assumptions as saying god does exist?
NO. What carries more assumption... Mt Everest is hollow and inhabited by giant flying whales. Or, Mt Everest is composed of solid rock?
-------------------- Coaster is an idiot... [quote]Coaster said: but i thnk everything thats pure is white? [/quote]
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vampirism
Stranger


Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
#2923390 - 07/24/04 10:51 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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the problem is that it just happens to make more sense. Common sense holds its weight only in commonplace issues. Try using common sense in quantum mechanics and relativity. God is the same sort of shit.
Besides which, what do you think your consciousness is? where did it come from? Do you subscribe to the view that your consciousness is nothing more than the image of consciousness within a bunch of executing instructions within your brain?
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kaiowas
lest we baguette


Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Atheism. [Re: Hanky]
#2923392 - 07/24/04 10:53 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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true in that situation you described, but we as humans don't have a clue when it comes to god, IMHO.
sure we have the big bang theory, but that still says nothing about where that energy came from
and if that energy has always been there, then what?
who's to say god didn't create the big bang??
in this subject humans can't and won't know 100% either way. since this is the case, saying what is carries assumptions jsut like saying what isn't.
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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