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InvisibleFredrock
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My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL
    #8103562 - 03/04/08 09:34 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

I won't deny or endorse religion, I just want to look over the idea of hell.

Now I have never hurt or brought harm to anyone, but because I 'sinned' =, I am condemned to torture and pain in hell? Fuck that..

Your telling me you can torture me for these 'sins' like not praying enough, not contributing to your church, eating pork, premarital sex, et cetera; when I myself have never done such a heinous thing to anything. I have to deny that God.

If there is a God, there is no way he is in the same mentality as he was 10,000 years ago. If he has watched how human kind has developed, he would have to change his 'standards'.

Hell I could imagine God saying something like "Well, you guys have just branched off so far, don't worry about what team you played for, lets just see how you played"

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Offlineflangenips
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Fredrock]
    #8104602 - 03/05/08 02:31 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

I too refuse to bow to a tyrant god who wont let me have harmless fun. Heck why even worship, if your good and never hurt anyone, or at least try to fix things you've done wrong with honest intent, then why should one get punished. If a god requires submission to him and his stupid rules, then he is a dirty fuckwit tyrant. Rally hells forces, there are more souls there, take heaven in a battle, strength in numbers. fuck you tyrant of heaven and earth, by giving us freedom of choice the tree of knowledge rightfully is ours.

...though i would say that as an atheist who doesn't believe in any of it anyway. :P


--------------------
All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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Invisiblenalyudi
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: flangenips]
    #8104627 - 03/05/08 02:48 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

im am with you. believing is blind faith. i know in order to believe, not believe in order to understand. the only positive is see in organized religion is community, but that is ruined by everything that comes with it. religion is like a feeding tube to strike fear into those who do not abide by the traditions, practices, ethics, and morals of that religion. if you eat meat on this specific day your afterlife will be full of torture blah blah blah.

i like the idea of solitary practice. if it makes you happy roll with it, and dont force it upon others. let them find their way to happiness, everyone must cut their own path. im also big on ideas. a "i'd like to think" kind of experssion of your perception of that which cannot be know. i cant just have faith, that this will happen if i do this.

example: are we reincarnated? i dont know, but if yes you better believe id be back fast because life is a trip :wink:

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: nalyudi]
    #8105173 - 03/05/08 08:40 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Perhaps hell is a literal mind state as heaven might as well be.


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Invisiblenalyudi
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8105293 - 03/05/08 09:20 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

but why an accepted label for it by society?

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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Fredrock]
    #8105340 - 03/05/08 09:40 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

thats why god doesn't exist

none of them do, they are all created by humans

its like santa claus

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Invisiblenalyudi
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Atheist]
    #8105403 - 03/05/08 09:58 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Atheist said:
thats why god doesn't exist




now that is jumping to a conclusion. you cannot prove either way. things based on facts are the only things we can know. the rest is beliefs. to me ideas are better than beliefs, ideas are always changing and adjusting.

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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: nalyudi]
    #8105408 - 03/05/08 09:59 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

ok well if the church is wrong about hell then they are wrong about heaven

could they be wrong about angels and god too? obviously

edit im coming from a catholic POV

Edited by Atheist (03/05/08 09:59 AM)

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Invisiblenalyudi
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Atheist]
    #8105454 - 03/05/08 10:13 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

i was raised catholic myself. i do not believe in a hell or a heaven anymore, or that an ineffable power exists . there is no hard facts on what happens postmortem so i just say i dont know, and im comfortable with that.

religions, even atheism (which is a religion) go by a system of beliefs often supported by documents, structure, and tradition. in atheism the belief is that there is no god, but because the possibility is there its only a belief (blind trust)

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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: nalyudi]
    #8105461 - 03/05/08 10:16 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

atheism is not a religion IMO

Quote:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.




by being an atheist, im AVOIDING religions and any set of rules/beliefs

im a human being

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Atheist]
    #8105472 - 03/05/08 10:17 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Atheist said:
ok well if the church is wrong about hell then they are wrong about heaven




Sorry but it doesn't logically follow. Your if/then statement has no evidence.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblenalyudi
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Atheist]
    #8105510 - 03/05/08 10:26 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Atheist said:
atheism is not a religion IMO

Quote:


5. the practice of religious beliefs





by saying you saying there is no heaven or hell or god....wouldnt it be a religion by that definition?

why put a label on it is my only question? the second you take a title you become part of that community. "hey were all _______ (insert whatever atheist, catholic, etc) so we are a community of the same beliefs blah blah blah)

btw i have no intentions of "burning" so lets try to keep this very hospitable

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Atheist]
    #8105520 - 03/05/08 10:31 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Atheist said:
atheism is not a religion IMO

Quote:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.




by being an atheist, im AVOIDING religions and any set of rules/beliefs

im a human being




No you aren't. If you were agnostic, it would be a different story, but atheism is a denial of the existence of a g*d, which is clearly an unprovable conclusion. You hold a set of belief concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe - quite specifically, you hold the belief that a g*d does not exist regarding all that.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineRonaldFuckingPaul
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8105745 - 03/05/08 11:25 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

I'm 99.9% sure that if there is a Heaven & Hell that it's just a state of consciousness in maybe another dimension or some shit. I doubt you just worship jebus 24/7 and suck him off. It's probably just a state of ecstatic bliss or something. Again I'm just speculating..


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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8105769 - 03/05/08 11:31 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Atheist said:
ok well if the church is wrong about hell then they are wrong about heaven




Sorry but it doesn't logically follow. Your if/then statement has no evidence.




how? both things were created by the church

praise jesus you go to heaven, hell if you dont

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/blathm_rel_religion.htm

atheism is NOT a religion

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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8105788 - 03/05/08 11:35 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Atheist said:
atheism is not a religion IMO

Quote:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.




by being an atheist, im AVOIDING religions and any set of rules/beliefs

im a human being




No you aren't. If you were agnostic, it would be a different story, but atheism is a denial of the existence of a g*d, which is clearly an unprovable conclusion. You hold a set of belief concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe - quite specifically, you hold the belief that a g*d does not exist regarding all that.




what the fuck are you talking about?

if i dont believe in the flying spaghetti monster am i saying that i know the universe's purpose?

nooooo

if god is different to everybody, then everybody is dead wrong

"the earth is flat because god made it!" - stupid people

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Atheist]
    #8105843 - 03/05/08 11:57 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

a·the·ist      (ā'thē-ĭst)  Pronunciation Key
n.  One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.




Quote:

ag·nos·tic      /ægˈnɒstɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ag-nos-tik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.
–adjective
3. of or pertaining to agnostics or agnosticism.
4. asserting the uncertainty of all claims to knowledge.




Being an atheist is being sure that god doesn't exist. How that any different from being sure that there's god? :strokebeard:

Being an agnostic means not knowing whether there's god or not. You don't know the entire Universe and what it consist of, so being sure about the lack of existence of something is simply dumb. :shrug:

Quote:

"the earth is flat because god made it!" - stupid people




"God doesn't exist because Christians believe in him" - guess who? :hehehe:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlineflangenips
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8105844 - 03/05/08 11:57 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Atheist said:
ok well if the church is wrong about hell then they are wrong about heaven




Sorry but it doesn't logically follow. Your if/then statement has no evidence.




agreed, one does not prove the other. Besides there are a some doctrines that believe in oblivion/purgatory etc rather than eternal torture in hell. And they both do not have to exist, one may exist alone.

I am an atheist, but i do know that i cannot wholly prove my beliefs with evidence or argument.


--------------------
All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: flangenips]
    #8105868 - 03/05/08 12:08 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

i am an atheist because i used to believe but now i dont

and i never will

god = santa claus IMO

im agnostic too (i have no idea what is out there besides other galaxies)

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Atheist]
    #8105879 - 03/05/08 12:12 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Might the Santa Claus story be traceable to some objective element(s) of reality??


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8105901 - 03/05/08 12:18 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

What does it have to do with anything?
Yes, any imaginary thing has some correlations with reality, this doesn't make the imagined object real. And since we don't know everything, we can't be sure about it's nonexistence.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Invisiblenalyudi
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8105929 - 03/05/08 12:26 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

the more i read about earth centered religions the more i like them. the elements are there. they are tangible. they are lasting. there is just a certain romance there for me.

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8105938 - 03/05/08 12:28 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

If these 'imagined' things do indeed correlate with objective realities like Santa might, it is my suggestion that anything 'imaginary' like God , might have its roots in a more understandably real objective reality.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8105953 - 03/05/08 12:31 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

a·the·ist      (ā'thē-ĭst)  Pronunciation Key
n.  One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.




Quote:

ag·nos·tic      /ægˈnɒstɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ag-nos-tik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.
–adjective
3. of or pertaining to agnostics or agnosticism.
4. asserting the uncertainty of all claims to knowledge.




Being an atheist is being sure that god doesn't exist. How that any different from being sure that there's god? :strokebeard:

Being an agnostic means not knowing whether there's god or not. You don't know the entire Universe and what it consist of, so being sure about the lack of existence of something is simply dumb. :shrug:




Most atheists do not describe themselves by the dictionaries definition of "atheist." There is strong atheism, weak atheism, positive atheism, negative atheism, etc.

Bertrand Russell probably did the best job of describing the common use of the word "atheist" in relation to "agnostic" in his essay What is an Agnostic? There is a difference between the two, but it can be quite small.

Quote:

The Agnostic suspends judgment, saying that there are not sufficient grounds either for affirmation or for denial. At the same time, an Agnostic may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice. In that case, he is not far removed from atheism. His attitude may be that which a careful philosopher would have towards the gods of ancient Greece. If I were asked to prove that Zeus and Poseidon and Hera and the rest of the Olympians do not exist, I should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments. An Agnostic may think the Christian God as improbable as the Olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.



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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8106033 - 03/05/08 12:48 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Being and agnostic doesn't equate with suspending judgment.

Quote:

At the same time, an Agnostic may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice.




Yes, true. But it is still an agnostic, and not an atheist. :wink:
Being an agnostic means admitting that it's impossible to determine the existence (or lack of existence) of god.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8106064 - 03/05/08 12:55 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

backfromthedead said:
If these 'imagined' things do indeed correlate with objective realities like Santa might, it is my suggestion that anything 'imaginary' like God , might have its roots in a more understandably real objective reality.




Nobody denied that.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlineflangenips
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8106329 - 03/05/08 02:18 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Being and agnostic doesn't equate with suspending judgment.

Quote:

At the same time, an Agnostic may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice.




Yes, true. But it is still an agnostic, and not an atheist. :wink:
Being an agnostic means admitting that it's impossible to determine the existence (or lack of existence) of god.




I'm now a little confused by these definitions being thrown around now.

I don't believe in a god, i consider myself an Atheist in this stance. But i realise it is impossible for me to prove non-existence of a god or gods. Does this make me agnostic?
Does it even matter? haha


--------------------
All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: flangenips]
    #8106364 - 03/05/08 02:25 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

As long as you don't take a definite stance on this I guess you're agnostic. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleFredrock
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: flangenips]
    #8106406 - 03/05/08 02:34 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

I'd say a man is atheist when he absolutely doesn't beleive in the God/Afterlife arguments. He doesn't question himself, maybe he beleives in science and evolution. How could you not be just as swayed by reason as you are religion?

As for myself, I was raised in a religious home, knew my prayers, had to go to religious school for a few months, whatever. when I weigh the arguments for a God and against one, religion doesn't quite hold up.

people say thats where faith comes in, but I don't really have faith, do you? BUT, I really honestly hope there is a God; I am in awe of the beauty in the universe, the physics that be, life, family, the power of beleif- in anything.

that makes me agnostic?

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Fredrock]
    #8106426 - 03/05/08 02:38 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)


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Offlineeve69
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8106459 - 03/05/08 02:45 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

My problem with preaching hell is that it's for the most part wishful thinking of those who should be wishing differently. Then in trying to avoid hell they inadvertantly create it.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Atheist]
    #8106468 - 03/05/08 02:48 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Atheist said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Atheist said:
ok well if the church is wrong about hell then they are wrong about heaven




Sorry but it doesn't logically follow. Your if/then statement has no evidence.




how? both things were created by the church




It isn't a rational statement. If one assumes that the church is wrong about hell, that fact, in and of itself, does not prove that they were wrong about heaven. Similarily, if one assumes that the church was wrong about heaven, it doesn't prove that they were wrong about hell.

If you say that you were wrong about how the weather would turn out today, then it does not prove that you were also wrong about how much gas would be at the convience store.

You used an if/then statement as though the if proved the then, but it clearly doesn't.

We're talking logic here; your statement was incorrect.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Atheist]
    #8106479 - 03/05/08 02:52 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Atheist said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
No you aren't. If you were agnostic, it would be a different story, but atheism is a denial of the existence of a g*d, which is clearly an unprovable conclusion. You hold a set of belief concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe - quite specifically, you hold the belief that a g*d does not exist regarding all that.




what the fuck are you talking about?

if i dont believe in the flying spaghetti monster am i saying that i know the universe's purpose?





Denial of the existence of g*d is just as unsubstantiated as believing in the existence of g*d. You're just as nonsensical about the topic as Christians are. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8106741 - 03/05/08 03:58 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Good.


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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8106775 - 03/05/08 04:05 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Atheist said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Atheist said:
ok well if the church is wrong about hell then they are wrong about heaven




Sorry but it doesn't logically follow. Your if/then statement has no evidence.




how? both things were created by the church




It isn't a rational statement. If one assumes that the church is wrong about hell, that fact, in and of itself, does not prove that they were wrong about heaven. Similarily, if one assumes that the church was wrong about heaven, it doesn't prove that they were wrong about hell.






my whole point is that you can't have one without the other

the devil is extremely fake to me, therefore his opposite (god) is just as fake

big man with white beard in the sky loves everyone, go tell that to starving kids in india :rolleyes:

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Atheist]
    #8106823 - 03/05/08 04:18 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Sin is a breakage of the law. Man was federally represented in Adam, and when Adam fell in the first transgression of the law all men fell in him. All are accounted guilty in Adam by imputation.

All that Christ represented are accounted righteous in Him by imputation. So it isn't personal acts of goodness that makes a man righteous, but the righteousness of Christ. Personal merit simply doesn't enter into becoming justified, since no one has any merit to begin with. All are born dead in sin and must be born again by the power of God before the gift of the faith of the gospel of Christ can become real and justification becomes a reality.

Can a man "sin away" his justification? No. If this were true it would mean that Christ's work is incomplete and can be destroyed by sinful men. Christ came to destroy sin and death and nothing can prevent that from happening exactly as God has ordained it. All that are ordained to eternal life will in due time be converted by the power of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

Eternal suffering is mentioned many times in scripture. God hates all unrighteousness and injustice. God’s standard is perfection. Men are blind to the standard that God demands, since they think “good enough” and sincere effort can be pleasing to God. The only thing pleasing to God is Jesus Christ, and unless you are found in Him, and with His perfect righteousness, damnation awaits you.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: fivepointer]
    #8106847 - 03/05/08 04:27 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

:angrykidface:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlineflangenips
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: fivepointer]
    #8107049 - 03/05/08 05:04 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Sin is a breakage of the law. Man was federally represented in Adam, and when Adam fell in the first transgression of the law all men fell in him. All are accounted guilty in Adam by imputation.

All that Christ represented are accounted righteous in Him by imputation. So it isn't personal acts of goodness that makes a man righteous, but the righteousness of Christ. Personal merit simply doesn't enter into becoming justified, since no one has any merit to begin with. All are born dead in sin and must be born again by the power of God before the gift of the faith of the gospel of Christ can become real and justification becomes a reality.

Can a man "sin away" his justification? No. If this were true it would mean that Christ's work is incomplete and can be destroyed by sinful men. Christ came to destroy sin and death and nothing can prevent that from happening exactly as God has ordained it. All that are ordained to eternal life will in due time be converted by the power of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

Eternal suffering is mentioned many times in scripture. God hates all unrighteousness and injustice. God’s standard is perfection. Men are blind to the standard that God demands, since they think “good enough” and sincere effort can be pleasing to God. The only thing pleasing to God is Jesus Christ, and unless you are found in Him, and with His perfect righteousness, damnation awaits you.





No offense to your beliefs, but god sounds like a pratt and a tyrant and the true scourge against human nature.

Heres are some questions and i'm interested in your answer.

Is God governed by natural moral law, or did god create natural moral law? Is god above this natural law, or does it not exist at all and there is only God's Law (i.e morals have nothing to do with it)?


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All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: flangenips]
    #8107212 - 03/05/08 05:39 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Sin is a breakage of the law. Which law? God gave the first command to Adam. This is the first law that was broken. Then God gave more laws to the nation of Israel. The law is not to produce righteousness by personal effort to keep it, but to show the absolute futility of trying to keep it on your own. It is to slay the self-righteous. Just because fallen man can't keep it doesn't mean he won't be judged by it. Man was created in God's image and is still responsible and accountable, even if the fall has rendered him with a nature that is incapable of keeping it.

Now what about people who never heard about any law ever? Does this mean they will escape judgment? No. The scripture shows that Man has a basic notion of right from wrong, albeit warped. This base knowledge renders him without excuse as he is able know to when things are wrong, yet he still does wrong things. Man is ignorant that when God declares a law it must be perfectly kept, since God is righteous, and laws are a reflection of His righteous nature.

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OfflineRonaldFuckingPaul
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: fivepointer]
    #8107652 - 03/05/08 07:12 PM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Sin is a breakage of the law. Which law? God gave the first command to Adam. This is the first law that was broken. Then God gave more laws to the nation of Israel. The law is not to produce righteousness by personal effort to keep it, but to show the absolute futility of trying to keep it on your own. It is to slay the self-righteous. Just because fallen man can't keep it doesn't mean he won't be judged by it. Man was created in God's image and is still responsible and accountable, even if the fall has rendered him with a nature that is incapable of keeping it.

Now what about people who never heard about any law ever? Does this mean they will escape judgment? No. The scripture shows that Man has a basic notion of right from wrong, albeit warped. This base knowledge renders him without excuse as he is able know to when things are wrong, yet he still does wrong things. Man is ignorant that when God declares a law it must be perfectly kept, since God is righteous, and laws are a reflection of His righteous nature.




You weren't there..how can you be so sure?


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Invisiblenalyudi
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: RonaldFuckingPaul]
    #8109792 - 03/06/08 05:09 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

i dont get all this discussion of sin in the first place. sin is an idea of society based on the current zeitgeist. when the commandments were revealed those were prevalent laws or morals of the commanding society. many years earlier stealing and killing was how you got by. many years after (now) society is much more diversified making everyone more liberal toward some of these morals that constantly have changed through time

of course what is considered sin can vary from person to person but what is overall generally accepted as sin or against moral code or law is decided by society and its current characteristics

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OfflineDroz
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8110063 - 03/06/08 07:55 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Who is this G*d you speak of?


--------------------
Evolution of Time.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: Atheist]
    #8110443 - 03/06/08 10:50 AM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Atheist said:
my whole point is that you can't have one without the other




Yes, and the statement you provided to demonstrate that point was irrational. How could you determine that there couldn't exist a "heaven" without a "hell" if you have absolutely no evidence that either of them do, or don't, exist? To hold a belief otherwise is religious.

Quote:


the devil is extremely fake to me, therefore his opposite (god) is just as fake




It sounds logical, but its irrational.

Quote:


big man with white beard in the sky loves everyone, go tell that to starving kids in india :rolleyes:




Why is that, because you believe that starving kids in India are substansial proof that there isn't a big man with a white beard in the sky that loves everyone?

I've got news for you, it isn't substansial proof.

Thus, your religious belief in the nonexistence of a g*d. There is no difference between a religious belief in the existence of a g*d as there is in the nonexistence of a g*d. Both beliefs are unsubstantiated but held nonetheless. That is religion. Changing one religion for another isn't an improvement; religion has to be transcended.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblenorml840
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8110899 - 03/06/08 12:47 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

backfromthedead said:
Might the Santa Claus story be traceable to some objective element(s) of reality??


watch "The Pharmacratic Inquisition". the original santa clauses were the village shaman. they would collect their entheogens and go through the village and pass them out. sometimes the snow would be so deep they couldn't go through the door. so he would have to use the chimney of course. anyway....you should watch the movie. it goes into much more detail and comes with a book siting all its sources of info.

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: norml840]
    #8110952 - 03/06/08 01:01 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

My point exactly.
I actually stumbled upon the first release, which was pretty poorly produced, some few years ago.  Christmas of '06 I sat and read Astrotheology and Shamanism cover to cover as a follow up.  Interesting stuff.:thumbup:

James Arthur unloads on the subject also.


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OfflineRonaldFuckingPaul
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8112276 - 03/06/08 05:37 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)

I never believed in Santa Claus.


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: My problem with religion, specifically those that preach HELL [Re: RonaldFuckingPaul]
    #8112340 - 03/06/08 05:52 PM (16 years, 26 days ago)



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