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InvisibleAtheist
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Fellow Atheists / Agnostics
    #7322135 - 08/22/07 05:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

why do YOU disbelieve in (or are skeptical of) the idea of god(s) and religion?


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Offlinerobbyberto
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7322170 - 08/22/07 05:33 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Because the simplest answer is usually correct and answers provided by religions and their gods are complex. Also because I couldn't fathom an omnipotent being allowing people to use its teachings to wage war, commit murder, and generally devastate the human race throughout recorded history.


--------------------
“People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington



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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7322372 - 08/22/07 06:28 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

For exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of the existence of Telepathy, Telekinesis, the Tooth Fairy, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, a Suicide Bomber's Allah, and Santa on a flying reindeer.

No evidence, only talk.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7322424 - 08/22/07 06:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
For exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of the existence of Telepathy, Telekinesis, the Tooth Fairy, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, a Suicide Bomber's Allah, and Santa on a flying reindeer.

No evidence, only talk.




WHOA!! ...you don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7322452 - 08/22/07 06:43 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I used to, but after much pasta consumption with nothing to show for it but unwanted weight gain, I became pragmatic and lost my faith. Now if I could only lose these extra pounds, I'd be enlightened... :rofl:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7323017 - 08/22/07 09:43 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> For exactly the same reason I'm skeptical of the existence of ... the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Hey now... don't make me get all noodly on your ass. Just because you don't believe in fairly tails such as Jesus, Santa, Mohamed, or Mr. Bunny is no reason to go dissin' the most piracious meatball, Himself. I see the jihadic plank in your future, unless ye change thy ways and consume vast quantities of the holy nectar known as Rum! Arrrrr..... (Speaking of rum... I think I had a bit too much tonight....)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineShlumpeet
killers!


Registered: 07/31/07
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Seuss]
    #7323692 - 08/23/07 12:08 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Really, I don't have a preference when it comes to believing or disbelieving.


--------------------
I've crossed the ocean, turned every bend. I found the crossing near a golden rainbow's end...


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InvisibleKilroyMilosevik
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: robbyberto]
    #7323721 - 08/23/07 12:17 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

robbyberto said:
Because the simplest answer is usually correct and answers provided by religions and their gods are complex. Also because I couldn't fathom an omnipotent being allowing people to use its teachings to wage war, commit murder, and generally devastate the human race throughout recorded history.




If there is a higher being; he/she is one sick motherfucker.

I don't believe because I haven't been provided with tangible evidence to convince me otherwise... until then, I'm going to slap hands with the chimps and believe that there was a colossal explosion that marked the beginning of our "time".

I believe the bible/kuran/etc. are story tales that were told to provide the public with common morals and decency... something to be used as an example, not to live by... I don't do either


--------------------
-The door.
-The door is closed.
-Why is the door closed?
        *Gasps*
-Why DOES the door close!?


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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: KilroyMilosevik]
    #7323766 - 08/23/07 12:33 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

KilroyMilosevik said:
Quote:

robbyberto said:
Because the simplest answer is usually correct and answers provided by religions and their gods are complex. Also because I couldn't fathom an omnipotent being allowing people to use its teachings to wage war, commit murder, and generally devastate the human race throughout recorded history.




If there is a higher being; he/she is one sick motherfucker.

I don't believe because I haven't been provided with tangible evidence to convince me otherwise... until then, I'm going to slap hands with the chimps and believe that there was a colossal explosion that marked the beginning of our "time".

I believe the bible/kuran/etc. are story tales that were told to provide the public with common morals and decency... something to be used as an example, not to live by... I don't do either




or its the biggest conspiracy in the world

and bottomline everyone, we are SO fucking outnumbered it is ridiculous

15% of the world is atheist, theres a lot of people that are fooled :justdontknow:


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InvisibleKilroyMilosevik
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Posts: 989
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7323789 - 08/23/07 12:40 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I always figured that religion was made up by the more intelligent beings of the time to spread fear in the hearts of the common people in order to convince them that if they don't follow the sketchy ass contradictory guidelines - they will suffer for eternity

But originally, I believe that religion was formed in order to come up with a "logical" conclusion to all the phenomena that happens around us and within ourselves.

Lightning cracks and strikes you dead...

Explanation? God did it... it was your time to die.

Fuck that tree you were standing under.

Get it?


--------------------
-The door.
-The door is closed.
-Why is the door closed?
        *Gasps*
-Why DOES the door close!?


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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7323851 - 08/23/07 01:06 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

complete mind control

i was raised catholic for 18 years, its very hard to accept the fact that it is literally complete bullshit


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: KilroyMilosevik]
    #7323927 - 08/23/07 01:22 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

When I was about 12, my bro and I were playing frisbee in a large field. Off in the corner there was a little league game going on.

A big summer thunderstorm came up. We got on our bikes and headed home.

The little league sought shelter under this enormous 300 year-old oak tree. Many were leaning against a chain link fence which ran under the tree.

Lightning struck the oak, jumped to the fence and killed 11 kids.


--------------------


Edited by OrgoneConclusion (08/23/07 01:36 AM)


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7324006 - 08/23/07 01:43 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

age of experience = 12
kids killed = 11

12 + 11 = 23...

oh shit, it was the devil!!!


--------------------


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7324013 - 08/23/07 01:45 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7325485 - 08/23/07 01:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SpicyTunaRoll said:
complete mind control

i was raised catholic for 18 years, its very hard to accept the fact that it is literally complete bullshit




This is how programming works. They like to start it when you are very young and haven't developed critical thinking skills and are dependent on your captors.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7327737 - 08/23/07 11:48 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

the biggest thing i dont understand is:

how does all this life (billions of species) come from nothing?

so the earth does get made whatever, how can we come from single celled organisms?

how do they explain this?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7328020 - 08/24/07 12:51 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Single celled organisms change subtly every time they divide. This happens as a result of DNA transcription errors. These subtle changes, called mutations, can be either beneficial to the organism's survival or detrimental to the organism's survival.

The ones who lucked out and got a beneficial mutation are more likely to live long enough to divide and pass the beneficial mutation on to their offspring. The unlucky ones are more likely to die before they reproduce.

This is called natural selection. Nature selects the ones whose random mutation happens to improve their chances of living long enough to reproduce and reinforce the mutation in subsequent generations.

Repeat this over and over for millions of generations, and you slowly cull away the unfavorable mutations and amplify whatever mutations make for likely survival.

Two cells hanging out together survive more often than single cells. This is because there is safety in numbers. If you're alone and you get attacked by a predator, you get eaten, but if you're in a group one of your friends might get eaten instead. So, if a mutation causes some cells to hang out together while others without the mutation go solo, the grouping mutation will be selected. Over time, that survival edge is amplified because the loners get eaten faster than the ones who like to group.

Extend this and eventually you see colonies of single celled creatures because the loner mutation get eaten more often. Keep extending this and eventually those single celled creatures begin to specialize again through random mutations. One mutation does a certain behavior better (say swimming) and another does a different behavior best (say eating and leaving the leftovers for the swimmers).

After enough generations, more natural selection makes these different flavor of cells so specialized to live with each other that they can no longer live apart. The swimmers starve without the eaters, and the eaters get eaten without swimmers to move the colony away from danger. This is called symbiosis.

The next step after symbiosis happens, is that you no longer have a bunch of single-celled organisms, but a multi-celled compound creature. Jelly fish are not unlike this.

Over many millions of years, this process refines and differentiates species to fill whatever environmental niche is available, and voila, millions of species.

There's a good primmer on evolution here.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7328784 - 08/24/07 08:28 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Adding a bit to this... one of the things that I noticed with simulated evolution is that natural selection leads to stagnation rather than development of a population, in the long run. Actual evolution doesn't happen until an extinction event comes along and removes a large portion of the population. Once this happens, the remaining population can mutate into the newly created niche environments without competition. Without the extinction event, the mutated members of the population, being weaker than the non-mutated members, quickly die out. It usually takes many generations for a mutation to become beneficial. (Again, these are personal observations made from simulated evolution. The real world may not work this way.)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineBoots
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Seuss]
    #7328875 - 08/24/07 09:38 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I believe in some sort of omnipotent being, but due to different theories and practically no evidence (not to mention the hypocrisy in many religions), I remain neutral in my beliefs.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7328915 - 08/24/07 10:01 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Individuals may believe in god and be spiritual. But religion is a sham
and it's disheartening that most people will spend their lives never seeing through
it.

What bothers me with religion and believers is when they moralize. When
they try to inflict their personal knowledge on others through laws and
truths.

I don't believe any talking primates's claims about religion any more
than I'd believe claims of other religions invented by say woodchucks ( if
they were to develop consciousness and language to express this).
...too much knowledge is being extended to trust in experts, which was
a problem with religion before, and more a problem with science, law
and history now. Let's keep our beliefs to our own bodies and minds,
where they belong; there's too much worry about what others tell us to
believe, and believing in all these ideas we have no idea if we believe
in ourselves.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Boots]
    #7329047 - 08/24/07 11:19 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I believe in some sort of omnipotent being

Do you have any reason to believe in an omnipotent being other than faith?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7330992 - 08/24/07 09:40 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Why does God send tribal people to hell for not following Christ if no missionaries of Christ have ever shared with them Christ's teachings?

How does Santa Claus deliver presents to kids all around the world in one night? And how come my neighbor got the sega genesis when I didn't? We both asked for it and were equally nice the whole year.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: KilroyMilosevik]
    #7332156 - 08/25/07 09:04 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

KilroyMilosevik said:
If there is a higher being; he/she is one sick motherfucker.




I believe it was Voltaire who said, "God is a comedian, playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."

indeed.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineBoots
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7332342 - 08/25/07 11:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I believe in some sort of omnipotent being

Do you have any reason to believe in an omnipotent being other than faith?




Not really.


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OfflineArchemetis
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Boots]
    #7332439 - 08/25/07 11:47 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

i tend to think atheists are as intellectually lazy / desprate, as our fundy christian freinds.

im not saying i know anything about any kind of god, but i recognize that there is somthing here and i dont know what it is. even if this is all just a product of evolution, there is somthing about humanity it seems that has risen above nature and has created less dense / godly realms of existance that have become a real potential for transcendance.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Archemetis]
    #7332522 - 08/25/07 12:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

but i recognize that there is somthing here and i dont know what it is. even if this is all just a product of evolution, there is somthing about humanity it seems that has risen above nature and has created less dense / godly realms of existance that have become a real potential for transcendance.

This kind of baseless, subjective, speculation is what is really lazy. Re-read your post.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7332572 - 08/25/07 12:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
but i recognize that there is somthing here and i dont know what it is. even if this is all just a product of evolution, there is somthing about humanity it seems that has risen above nature and has created less dense / godly realms of existance that have become a real potential for transcendance.

This kind of baseless, subjective, speculation is what is really lazy. Re-read your post.




Please demonstrate as to how precisely this speculation is "really lazy". :sherlock:

It seems to be a statement that, even as we do not know how this has came to be or the true nature of reality as it is occuring, there is this experience of being human, and it is the most mind-blowing thing of all time. The realization of our present experience and our consciousness and how profound and amazing it is, does not seem to be commonly accessible, so I fail to understand how this acknowledgement as he expressed is "really lazy". :shrug:

The fact that we are presently experiencing reality... its indescribable. Here we are, alive. Wow. :whoah:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7332628 - 08/25/07 12:59 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

i tend to think atheists are as intellectually lazy / desprate, as our fundy christian freinds.

This was in response to this statement. IMO it's lazy to just speculate without providing some evidence to base it upon. Now I would have let that go except for his statement about atheists which is IMO, ignorant.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Archemetis]
    #7332659 - 08/25/07 01:10 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

there is somthing about humanity it seems that has risen above nature

Right. That must be why we still have to eat, like the rest of the animals, and shit, like the rest of the animals, and sweat, and fight, and cry, and suffer, and feel pain, and die, like the rest of the animals.

I keep saying this, but the the True Believers never see the parallel that they're doing the same thing the Catholics did when they insisted that the stars and the sun revolve around the Earth. They thought that the Earth was somehow special and placed at the center of God's universe.

When Galileo tried to show them the truth in his telescope, they imprisoned him for life and destroyed his telescope.

Now that we know the true nature of our planet's orbit, we invent a NEW silly idea. The Earth isn't special any more, BUT WAIT, we humans are special compared to the rest of the animals! Yeah, that's it! :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Posts: 24,855
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7332664 - 08/25/07 01:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

So which evidence do atheists, in general, base their speculation that there is no g*d upon?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7332674 - 08/25/07 01:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Lack of evidence.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7332675 - 08/25/07 01:15 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
there is somthing about humanity it seems that has risen above nature

Right. That must be why we still have to eat, like the rest of the animals, and shit, like the rest of the animals, and sweat, and fight, and cry, and suffer, and feel pain, and die, like the rest of the animals.

I keep saying this, but the the True Believers never see the parallel that they're doing the same thing the Catholics did when they insisted that the stars and the sun revolve around the Earth. They thought that the Earth was somehow special and placed at the center of God's universe.

When Galileo tried to show them the truth in his telescope, they imprisoned him for life and destroyed his telescope.

Now that we know the true nature of our planet's orbit, we invent a NEW silly idea. The Earth isn't special any more, BUT WAIT, we humans are special compared to the rest of the animals! Yeah, that's it! :rolleyes:




:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7332684 - 08/25/07 01:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Lack of evidence.




Then their beliefs are unsubstantiated. :shrug:

A belief that g*d exists is just as substantiated as the belief that g*d doesn't exist, as neither are evidenced. :sorry:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7332689 - 08/25/07 01:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Don't be sorry, you can't help it.

That's my point. If he's calling one lazy then his POV has to be also.:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7332708 - 08/25/07 01:33 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Ahh, but you used the word "really" to assert a hierarchy of laziness amongst the viewpoints. :smirk: Also, you asserted that his view on athiests in comparison to fundamental Christians was ignorant. :strokebeard:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7332741 - 08/25/07 01:47 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I do think that atheists are fundamentally more introspective and logical in their beliefs. Being one myself I can honestly say I don't know because there isn't evidence either way. A fundamentalist says I don't have evidence but I know this to be true. IMO any logical person can see difference.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7333436 - 08/25/07 05:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Right. That must be why we still have to eat, like the rest of the animals, and shit, like the rest of the animals, and sweat, and fight, and cry, and suffer, and feel pain, and die, like the rest of the animals.




Pigs, dogs, dolphins and bacteria do not sweat.

*Bzzzzzzzt!* Try again.


--------------------


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7333512 - 08/25/07 06:19 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:


Pigs, dogs, dolphins and bacteria do not sweat.

*Bzzzzzzzt!* Try again.




They must be god... :shocked:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7333514 - 08/25/07 06:20 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
there is somthing about humanity it seems that has risen above nature

Right. That must be why we still have to eat, like the rest of the animals, and shit, like the rest of the animals, and sweat, and fight, and cry, and suffer, and feel pain, and die, like the rest of the animals.

I keep saying this, but the the True Believers never see the parallel that they're doing the same thing the Catholics did when they insisted that the stars and the sun revolve around the Earth. They thought that the Earth was somehow special and placed at the center of God's universe.

When Galileo tried to show them the truth in his telescope, they imprisoned him for life and destroyed his telescope.

Now that we know the true nature of our planet's orbit, we invent a NEW silly idea. The Earth isn't special any more, BUT WAIT, we humans are special compared to the rest of the animals! Yeah, that's it! :rolleyes:




:thumbup:




I really enjoy reading your posts. Both of you guys actually, have the exact same view as me.

IMO atheists are somewhat rare in the US,
and when people discuss "God" I seriously have to keep my mouth shut and hold my opinions, people dont like atheists

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
So which evidence do atheists, in general, base their speculation that there is no g*d upon?




One year ago I was full on Catholic. I loved Jesus, God and believed in the Holy Spirit.

One day I stepped back and said: wow, maybe this shit isnt real. From that day, i've been a different person.

Becoming an atheist has made me appreciate life so much, because I know this is the only life I get.
There is no heaven/hell, and no afterlife.

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
The fact that we are presently experiencing reality... its indescribable. Here we are, alive. Wow. :whoah:




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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7333524 - 08/25/07 06:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It just sounds crazy. And church, people who pray, and Jesus scare me. He's a creepy guy for someone who "loves me so much".


Quantum Physics/String Theory FTW!!


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7333527 - 08/25/07 06:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)



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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Newbie]
    #7333543 - 08/25/07 06:26 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Actually, Jesus was a way nice guy. Not supernatural and a little delusional, but still way nice.

If the people who claim to follow his teachings followed his teachings, the world would be a better place.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7333557 - 08/25/07 06:29 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

nice


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7333599 - 08/25/07 06:44 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SpicyTunaRoll said:
why do YOU disbelieve in (or are skeptical of) the idea of god(s) and religion?




I was an agnostic/atheist from childhood to 35, so I have some insight on agnosticism. I simply did not see any evidence that God existed, and the God in the Bible, well NO WAY that could be true. I never ruled out the possibility of God existing, but for all purposes I was an atheist.

As far as my philosophy of life when I was agnostic it basically was try to get laid, get high, live a hedonistic existence, and survive.

I did a 180 and was brought into conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit, and converted 7.5 years ago, and became a Christian (of the calvinistic baptist variety). If someone told me I would someday become a Christian I would have told them they were crazy. But when God decides to save one of His sheep, it will come to pass no matter what.


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: fivepointer]
    #7333618 - 08/25/07 06:47 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Your god is highly discriminating. :razz:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: fivepointer]
    #7333655 - 08/25/07 06:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

As far as my philosophy of life when I was agnostic it basically was try to get laid, get high, live a hedonistic existence, and survive.


I would like to suggest that it was the result of the above lifestyle that may have caused the switch to fundamentalist religion. Many folk living the above, often unhealthy and unhappy life look for a dramatic resolution to the dilemma. There is of course other solutions for this, but few know about them as they live in a dysfunctional culture that supports suffering.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7333668 - 08/25/07 06:58 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"I used to be all fucked on on drugs. Now I am all fucked up on The Lord."


--------------------


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7333695 - 08/25/07 07:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
As far as my philosophy of life when I was agnostic it basically was try to get laid, get high, live a hedonistic existence, and survive.


I would like to suggest that it was the result of the above lifestyle that may have caused the switch to fundamentalist religion. Many folk living the above, often unhealthy and unhappy life look for a dramatic resolution to the dilemma. There is of course other solutions for this, but few know about them as they live in a dysfunctional culture that supports suffering.




I wasn't looking for a resolution to a dilemma, I was perfectly happy in my ways. Religion just seemed absurd and ridiculous. After all why base your life on something that may or may not be true? True faith is the gift of God, and one has no doubts about the truthfulness of what is believed, and the Holy Spirit witnesses with my spirit that these things are true. When I was agnostic I had no Holy Spirit. The Spirit is very noticeable in the life of a believer.


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: fivepointer]
    #7333705 - 08/25/07 07:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

This could be true in your case. Yet I have know many for who this was not so.

and survive. This was in your post. Often there is an unconscious will to transcend mere fear based survival. That's what P&S is all about.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7333747 - 08/25/07 07:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Why does everyone on this board try to speculate as to the inner intents of those who post. You don't know the inner intent of the poster, so these speculations are vain and foolish.


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: fivepointer]
    #7333770 - 08/25/07 07:31 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

This could be true in your case.

This is why I said this.^^^

I basically grew up in the fundamentalist baptist world. It wasn't hard to do some speculating when watching and living among them. I'm glad I did, or I wouldn't have questioned my beliefs at that time.

You speculate that by not believing what you do I am destined for hell. You have no demonstrable proof and yet you proclaim it true for me. What's up with that?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7333853 - 08/25/07 07:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
This could be true in your case.

This is why I said this.^^^

I basically grew up in the fundamentalist baptist world. It wasn't hard to do some speculating when watching and living among them. I'm glad I did, or I wouldn't have questioned my beliefs at that time.

You speculate that by not believing what you do I am destined for hell. You have no demonstrable proof and yet you proclaim it true for me. What's up with that?



Unbelief only evidences the fact that someone is ALREADY condemned. All are condemned from birth due to the first transgression which is imputed. So unbelief doesn't of itself condemn, although it is sin. Even a baby that dies unconverted goes to hell, not because of unbelief, but because of original imputation.

I believe the truth is the truth, it does not vary from one personal situation to another, it is not relativistic. So it indeed does apply to you and everyone else as well. As far as proving anything, it is God who demonstrates and proves it to those He intends to save.


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: fivepointer]
    #7333890 - 08/25/07 08:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Your post in no way addresses my comments. If you have nothing to say that is relevant then I suggest you disengage from the discussion.

I believe the truth is the truth,

I also do, and believe that the truth is not in your (IMO) hateful, unskillful, fear based and negative beliefs.


Edited by Icelander (08/25/07 08:16 PM)


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: fivepointer]
    #7333909 - 08/25/07 08:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Unbelief only evidences the fact that someone is ALREADY condemned. All are condemned from birth due to the first transgression which is imputed. So unbelief doesn't of itself condemn, although it is sin. Even a baby that dies unconverted goes to hell, not because of unbelief, but because of original imputation.

I believe the truth is the truth, it does not vary from one personal situation to another, it is not relativistic. So it indeed does apply to you and everyone else as well. As far as proving anything, it is God who demonstrates and proves it to those He intends to save.




So god is a sadistic little bitch who wants attention and sacrifices and who gives a damn about "his children".


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7333984 - 08/25/07 08:31 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SpicyTunaRoll said:





yup. religion is bullshit :stoner:


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7334291 - 08/25/07 10:23 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Lack of evidence.




Then their beliefs are unsubstantiated. :shrug:

A belief that g*d exists is just as substantiated as the belief that g*d doesn't exist, as neither are evidenced. :sorry:




An agnostic neither believes nor disbelieves in a higher power, but rather states that there is no proof either way, and perhaps there never will be. This seems the most-logical, reasonable stance on the matter.  :shrug:

I suppose if someone really needs the comfort of believing in God, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Allah, or whomever, then they will find religious faith very useful.  It all seems too much like a pyramid marketing scheme to me.  :wink:


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Veritas]
    #7334373 - 08/25/07 10:52 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

An agnostic is a spineless person afraid to take a stance; a waffler of the highest order.

Jesus hated the lukewarm the most of all. He preferred extra hot & spicy.


--------------------


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7334381 - 08/25/07 10:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Here's your Bible, would you like Fire sauce with that?  :lol:


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7334778 - 08/26/07 01:08 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

just wondering, do atheists... or do the atheists here believe in a universal flow?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7335048 - 08/26/07 02:53 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

At my next atheist meeting, I will check our charter and ask our leader, provided he has a fucking clue what you are talking about.


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7335088 - 08/26/07 03:14 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

haha, ok touche.

....ok i've tried thinking up different ways to say this and they're all a bit bias sooo here...

What percentage of the stuff on the Mysticism, Religion, & the Paranormal do you like/agree with?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7335521 - 08/26/07 09:13 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The things that have the tiniest little bit of objectively observable evidence to support them, and that its proponents are willing to debate freely.

Anything less is bullshit in my eyes, especially when free debate is shunned. That's usually a big red flag. Truth can withstand all criticism, but made up shit immediately falls apart when picked at.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7335769 - 08/26/07 12:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

What percentage of the stuff on the Mysticism, Religion, & the Paranormal do you like/agree with?




I like them all, i love stories.


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7336258 - 08/26/07 02:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
The things that have the tiniest little bit of objectively observable evidence to support them, and that its proponents are willing to debate freely.

Anything less is bullshit in my eyes, especially when free debate is shunned. That's usually a big red flag. Truth can withstand all criticism, but made up shit immediately falls apart when picked at.




ok, yeah I think I hear what you're saying.

for me, my problem is people sticking by a certain ideal/religion/belief bound by limiting 'rules'. To me everything is a piece of the puzzle... puzzle of what? I don't think I'll ever get that far as the puzzle is so exponentially massive that a nice lil sideways 8 would be the only way to describe it.

ehh, in other words everything that is everything is dynamic and ever changing. Just constant change.

I've shared some experiences in the mystical forum and I really can't describe it other than a 'universal' feeling and everything just flowing... hence 'universal flow'. Up until these experiences I've realized I can't say anything to know for sure because they're the utmost shocking, ironic, and outright hilarious times of my life.

but yeah, i dunno if that conveyed my thoughts clearly enough.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7336348 - 08/26/07 03:28 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I don't care if there was a progenitor, because that doesn't answer the question of how that came to be. What I do care about is dickheaded theocratic arseholes fucking up the world for everyone else and thinking that self denial is virtuous.

You want to deny yourself the pleasure of drugs, gambling, sex and masturbation, good food and music, or a stimulating lecture on evolutionary mechanisms? Go ahead. Keep it to yourself. Don't start proclaiming that the only path to salvation, the only "good life" to lead is by following a bunch of flawed, contradictory and hateful ideas.


--------------------


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7337039 - 08/26/07 07:07 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

this kind of proves the idea of god/gods wrong in my mind:

talk to one of the millions of people that believe in hinduism, they are crazy. they have so many gods.

elephant gods and other shit that is obviously fake, but if you talk to them about it they really believe it.

any person with logic will see that those gods are ALL fake. completely.

then we (humans) create the one, all powerful 'God'

so many americans think god is some human type shit sitting around watching everything :rolleyes:

i believe that when we die, it will be the same feeling before our birth: nothing.


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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7337723 - 08/26/07 09:54 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SpicyTunaRoll said:
Fellow Atheists / Agnostics
why do YOU disbelieve in (or are skeptical of) the idea of god(s) and religion?




The fact that you lump atheists and agnostics in together demonstrates an astonishing misunderstanding of the nature of (dis)belief. The two could not be more different. One grouping represents well-balanced, thoughtful, well-reasoned and articulate people, the other delusional self-righteous crackpots who may as well beleive in Marvin the Magnificent All-Seeing Hermaphrodite for all the difference it would do to their closed-off non-minds. ANd you'll have to guess which is which cos Im not saying.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: mr_kite]
    #7337763 - 08/26/07 10:04 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

A hush falls over the crowd followed by murmurs of "Oooooh! Marvin. He spoke the name of Marvin the Magnificent!" :bow: :bow: :bow:


--------------------


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7337778 - 08/26/07 10:08 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Herein lies the ingenious appeal of Marvin, appealing as s(he) does to both the men and women of the crowd alike.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: mr_kite]
    #7338163 - 08/27/07 12:29 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mr_kite said:
Quote:

SpicyTunaRoll said:
Fellow Atheists / Agnostics
why do YOU disbelieve in (or are skeptical of) the idea of god(s) and religion?




The fact that you lump atheists and agnostics in together demonstrates an astonishing misunderstanding of the nature of (dis)belief. The two could not be more different. One grouping represents well-balanced, thoughtful, well-reasoned and articulate people, the other delusional self-righteous crackpots who may as well beleive in Marvin the Magnificent All-Seeing Hermaphrodite for all the difference it would do to their closed-off non-minds. ANd you'll have to guess which is which cos Im not saying.




can somebody explain this to me?


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OfflineArchemetis
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7344830 - 08/28/07 04:24 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
there is something about humanity it seems that has risen above nature

Right. That must be why we still have to eat, like the rest of the animals, and shit, like the rest of the animals, and sweat, and fight, and cry, and suffer, and feel pain, and die, like the rest of the animals.

I keep saying this, but the the True Believers never see the parallel that they're doing the same thing the Catholics did when they insisted that the stars and the sun revolve around the Earth. They thought that the Earth was somehow special and placed at the center of God's universe.

When Galileo tried to show them the truth in his telescope, they imprisoned him for life and destroyed his telescope.

Now that we know the true nature of our planet's orbit, we invent a NEW silly idea. The Earth isn't special any more, BUT WAIT, we humans are special compared to the rest of the animals! Yeah, that's it! :rolleyes:


and we humans debate and discuss ideas over cyberspace just like all the other animals, and we build great architectural masterpieces just like all the other animals, and we bury our dead just like all the other animals. right? no wait...:confused:
if your trying to convince me that humans are just like all the other animals I'm afraid i wont be able to understand your point of view. we've evolved into something different entirely. the fact that we recognize our inevitable death leads us to question many things and this questioning is what makes us uniquely human.

by the way I'm not a true believer in anything (though particularly in Christianity and atheism), i realize i don't know anything about these questions that have been haunting me since birth, and i doubt i ever will.

also your story about the true believers and Galileo goes both ways. the true believers as you call them were simply afraid of new information that would disrupt their belief systems. the same can be said about atheists for they to have their own belief system (belief that no god exists).

personally I'm not intimidated by new information because, as iv said i have no solid system of beliefs that would be endangered.


Edited by Archemetis (08/28/07 04:32 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Archemetis]
    #7344846 - 08/28/07 04:30 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

we've evolved into something different entirely.

Well, not entirely don't you think?:monkeydance:

Each animal is unlike all the others in many ways. So we are not unique in that. And what do animals think and feel and know? There is no real way for us to tell and to pretend otherwise is just silly.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineArchemetis
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7344862 - 08/28/07 04:36 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

still trying to convince me we're like the other animals?

There is no real way for us to tell and to pretend otherwise is just silly.

its obvious animals dont behave the way we do or think about the things we do (if they did they would behave as we do)
i also like to think its obvious that animals dont study quantum mechanics, and theatre, and philosophy.

its clear that the human mind is far more evolved than any other animal on this planet that we know of.


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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Archemetis]
    #7344868 - 08/28/07 04:38 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

take any black guy jungle dude straight out of africa, he looks just like a monkey

thats proof in my mind


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7344902 - 08/28/07 04:45 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Some white people make maggots and tapeworms look intelligent. Good job.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineArchemetis
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7344906 - 08/28/07 04:47 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

lol, lets not be so ignorant about this now. do the primitive humans not also bury their dead? and create stories, and gods? do they not also dance and sing and play music? they still have a mind that questions existance, a mind that recognizes creation as unexplainable, a mind that recognizes death as enevitable?

also, most primitive men's awarness is far more evolved than your average americans. tracking is a very precise and accurate science that seems almost otherworldly to civilised man.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Archemetis]
    #7345189 - 08/28/07 06:00 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

and we humans debate and discuss ideas over cyberspace just like all the other animals, and we build great architectural masterpieces just like all the other animals

Yeah? Well up until recently, a similar argument was used by narrow-minded True Believers who stated that humans were God's unique creation because we are the only creatures able to modify natural objects to make tools. Humans were arrogantly called "Man the Tool Maker".

This tool making started during the interglacial period of the Paleolithic about 100,000 years ago when we first figured out how to chip sharp edges in flint to make cutting tools.

You know what was recently discovered? Chimps modify natural objects to make tools too. For example, they'll take a long reed, strip off the leaves (modifying a natural object), then use it to fish out termites from termite mounds to eat them. This is a giant intellectual leap forward and leaves all the other lower animals far, far behind.

And chimps have been observed seasoning their food by dipping it in sea water. No other lower animal does this.

The point of all this? Chimps are technologically and culturally about 100,000 years behind us. They are the only other species known to make tools and season their food.

If they follow the development curve humans did, they will be building "great architectural masterpieces" in about 100,000 years. They'll probably have an internet of their own by then too.

Humans are chimps with a 100,000 year head start. Nothing more. :monkeydance:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7345213 - 08/28/07 06:05 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Great post.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7345309 - 08/28/07 06:23 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It's not just chimps, many other animals use tools.

Article

To claim that humans are more than animal is a bit egotistical.  Our particular genetic mutations do not mark us as higher or better than the rest of the animals, just different.  What makes humans successful as a species is not the same as what makes birds, dogs, snakes, crocodiles or elephants successful as a species. We have adapted as we were forced to adapt in order to continue, just as the other animals have done.  Nothing special, just survival.  :shrug:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Veritas]
    #7345366 - 08/28/07 06:36 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It's not just chimps, many other animals use tools.

Learn something new every day. Great article. TY!

I think chips may make tools in a different intellectual framework than birds though. A bird modifying a branch to make a nest seems like instinct but a chimp modifying a branch to make a termite catcher seems like more than instinct.

For example, birds often get it wrong and waste a lot of effort jabbing (seemingly) mindlessly trying to get something to fit right and succeed through blind trial and error. Chimps seem like they have intent when they make tools.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7345376 - 08/28/07 06:40 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I've always loved photos of sea otters holding rocks on their bellies while they use their front paws to bash shells open.  They are just too cute AND smart!  :smile:

Quote:

For example, birds often get it wrong and waste a lot of effort jabbing (seemingly) mindlessly trying to get something to fit right and succeed through blind trial and error.




Have you ever watched a human putting together "assemble-it-yourself" furniture?  :lol:

Besides, the New Caledonian Crow & Woodpecker Finch do more than make nests--they are clearly using tools with intent.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Veritas]
    #7345387 - 08/28/07 06:43 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Have you ever watched a human putting together "assemble-it-yourself" furniture?

Yep, that's me! :rofl:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7345400 - 08/28/07 06:45 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I've become quite an expert at it...I even devised a system of using an egg carton to sort the different numbered parts.  Guess I'm smarter than the average bear (or nesting bird). :wink:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Veritas]
    #7345408 - 08/28/07 06:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

They are just too cute




Too cute? They shouldn't be THAT cute? We should remedy that and exterminate them all.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7345742 - 08/28/07 08:32 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

For example, birds often get it wrong and waste a lot of effort jabbing (seemingly) mindlessly trying to get something to fit right...




Unlike Bush... :rolleyes:


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7345831 - 08/28/07 08:59 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Are you calling Bush a bird brain? :rofl:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7345892 - 08/28/07 09:13 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

That is insulting to birds. I am saying he hasn't a clue what he is doing.

"Brownie did a fine job!"

"Gonzales is doing a fine job!"

"My generals are doing a fine job!"

"Rummy is doing a fine job!"


--------------------


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OfflineArchemetis
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7348581 - 08/29/07 03:53 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
and we humans debate and discuss ideas over cyberspace just like all the other animals, and we build great architectural masterpieces just like all the other animals

Yeah? Well up until recently, a similar argument was used by narrow-minded True Believers who stated that humans were God's unique creation because we are the only creatures able to modify natural objects to make tools. Humans were arrogantly called "Man the Tool Maker".

This tool making started during the interglacial period of the Paleolithic about 100,000 years ago when we first figured out how to chip sharp edges in flint to make cutting tools.

You know what was recently discovered? Chimps modify natural objects to make tools too. For example, they'll take a long reed, strip off the leaves (modifying a natural object), then use it to fish out termites from termite mounds to eat them. This is a giant intellectual leap forward and leaves all the other lower animals far, far behind.

And chimps have been observed seasoning their food by dipping it in sea water. No other lower animal does this.

The point of all this? Chimps are technologically and culturally about 100,000 years behind us. They are the only other species known to make tools and season their food.

If they follow the development curve humans did, they will be building "great architectural masterpieces" in about 100,000 years. They'll probably have an internet of their own by then too.

Humans are chimps with a 100,000 year head start. Nothing more. :monkeydance:


i really dont get your argument at all. the point iv been trying to make is humans are unique because we have evolved far beyond the animalistic lifestyle. and our minds have evolved into an incredibly powerful tool, more powerful that anything else i know of on the planet. this tangent is off target though. my original comment on atheists being as desprate and unimaginative as christians hasnt much to do with this debate.

let me ask you this...if a man came to your with a telescope like galeleos, that didnt prove the earth revolved around the sun, but rather proved the existance of some kind of god, how many atheists do you think would bother to look? would you? and of those who looked how many do you think would brush it off as an illusion? true believers.... theres as many holes in the scientific version of creation as there are in the christian story. where did the enormous density and temperature come from that sparked the big bang? where did god come from? these questions are equal.


i dont have a telescope but i have a microscope, and as far as im concerned it proves that there is indeed some mystic force out there, that is beyond what we can ever hope to know. god if you will.  ever watch cell division? its a humbling process, and its happening inside all of us right now, the division of matter. and theres no attempt to even explain it. scientists observe the process but not the lifeforce at work.

what about the flame that lights the candle. have you ever really seen what thats all about. we know much about fires habits but nothing of fire.

is not the whole of the tree found in the seed?

when i say atheists lack imagination its because they fail to see the great mystery that is right in front of their eyes....when i say their desprate its because their choosing not to ask specific questions, afraid of what those questions imply.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Archemetis]
    #7348766 - 08/29/07 04:52 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

when i say atheists lack imagination its because they fail to see the great mystery that is right in front of their eyes....when i say their desprate its because their choosing not to ask specific questions, afraid of what those questions imply.

They could well see the great mystery and not attribute it to a God; as in Taoism.

What are these specific questions you refer to? If they're the ones you listed about none of them need a God. God is subjective. As is the lack of God. I choose agnosticism. I'm open to anything, but realize that if no one has proven the existence of God or the lack thereof then I'm most likely not going to be the one to find the final proof. So I waste little time on the matter. IMO my life would not change if I found out there was a God.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Archemetis]
    #7348819 - 08/29/07 05:07 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

because we have evolved far beyond the animalistic lifestyle

When we no longer have to eat and shit and die, THEN you can claim we've evolved past animalism.

let me ask you this...if a man came to your with a telescope like galeleos, that didnt prove the earth revolved around the sun, but rather proved the existance of some kind of god, how many atheists do you think would bother to look?

I can't speak to how others will react, but I would jump for joy at the discovery of proof of a God. What a wonderful thing that would be.

But that said, I don't buy it for one second when instead of that hypothetical telescope all we have is the insistence of the faithful who don't have enough conviction in their beliefs to even debate them fairly (see the mumbo jumbo forum one isle over).

theres as many holes in the scientific version of creation

What are you talking about? Science proposes possible explanations (theories) and does not deny that God may be THE explanation. Religion on the other hand insists that science is wrong and the ONLY explanation is God.

Science then observes nature and if the theories conflict with the observations, it dumps them. If they agree with observation, it keeps them pending the result of additional observations.

Meanwhile, religion says prayer cures sick people. When study after study (observations of nature) shows this is bullshit, religion continues to insist that prayer cures sick people. Nevermind that no amputee has ever had their limb restored by payer. :rofl2:

No progress is ever made because this kind of thinking is dogma and spiritual stagnation. This is why it took hundreds of years for the church to finally admit that Galileo was right after all. And today they cling to their 'stem cells are children' dogma to the suffering of real children everywhere.

i dont have a telescope but i have a microscope, and as far as im concerned it proves that there is indeed some mystic force out there, that is beyond what we can ever hope to know.

How's that? What do you see in your microscope that is supernatural?

what about the flame that lights the candle. have you ever really seen what thats all about. we know much about fires habits but nothing of fire.

Alright, now you're spouting bullshit. A high school chemistry book will explain fire to you.

is not the whole of the tree found in the seed?

It's in the DNA of the seed. The DNA is like a computerized sewing machine using electromagnetic interaction between atoms instead of wheels, cogs, and springs.

Put the right algorithm into the sewing machine, turn it on so it repeats over and over, and in a few hours you have a complex quilt.

Stick a seed in the ground and let the DNA 'sew' atoms together and in a few years you have a tree.

No magic is required for the sewing machine or DNA to work.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7348840 - 08/29/07 05:14 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Diploid, you is such a wise guy.:inlove:


Great post.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7354235 - 08/31/07 01:23 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Diploid, you is such a wise guy.:inlove:


Great post.:thumbup:




seriously :congrats:


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Offlinekimikiri
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7354260 - 08/31/07 01:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I would surmise that there are many reasons to disprove or not believe in god.

And for me to state otherwise here would be a clear violation of "your" rights.

Party on friends!


--------------------
Those who would sacrifice their freedoms for securities deserve neither, and will soon lose both.

-Benjamin Franklin


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OfflineBent Bastard
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7354282 - 08/31/07 01:36 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I view established religion as a means which people developed to explain the world around them, and to enforce acceptable behaviour in society. These are worthy causes, but as our knowledge of science progresses, and legal systems replace loose social ethics, the idea that a 'God' or 'Gods' exist are no longer required. We have replaced religion with science and law, and although this isn't as fantastic as an all-powerful being, it does provide answers that are based on fact and reason, not folklore and supernatural beings.

Anyway, if you are religious, don't you find it strange that out of the hundreds of religions on the planet, the one that you believe is right just happens to be the one that your parents believe in? Funny that..


--------------------
*Some names have been changed to protect the innocent; others have been changed to implicate other innocents.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Bent Bastard]
    #7355231 - 08/31/07 11:17 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Anyway, if you are religious, don't you find it strange that out of the hundreds of religions on the planet, the one that you believe is right just happens to be the one that your parents believe in? Funny that..

IMO here is sure fire proof of the programming of human beans.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineArchemetis
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Diploid]
    #7356153 - 08/31/07 04:11 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

When we no longer have to eat and shit and die, THEN you can claim we've evolved past animalism.

life is sustained by life. and we are alive.


What are you talking about? Science proposes possible explanations (theories) and does not deny that God may be THE explanation. Religion on the other hand insists that science is wrong and the ONLY explanation is God.

Science then observes nature and if the theories conflict with the observations, it dumps them. If they agree with observation, it keeps them pending the result of additional observations.

Meanwhile, religion says prayer cures sick people. When study after study (observations of nature) shows this is bullshit, religion continues to insist that prayer cures sick people. Nevermind that no amputee has ever had their limb restored by payer. :rofl2:

No progress is ever made because this kind of thinking is dogma and spiritual stagnation. This is why it took hundreds of years for the church to finally admit that Galileo was right after all. And today they cling to their 'stem cells are children' dogma to the suffering of real children everywhere.


perhaps my argument isnt with you then and yours is not with me. as i agree with this bit. my posts have been reffering to the atheist dogma.


How's that? What do you see in your microscope that is supernatural?

the creative life force at work. cell division is not just dead matter being split. this is living matter creating living matter.



Alright, now you're spouting bullshit. A high school chemistry book will explain fire to you.

on a shallow level perhaps. what i'm getting at was once there was nothing there and now theres something there....a flame, once again the creative life force at work.



It's in the DNA of the seed. The DNA is like a computerized sewing machine using electromagnetic interaction between atoms instead of wheels, cogs, and springs.

Put the right algorithm into the sewing machine, turn it on so it repeats over and over, and in a few hours you have a complex quilt.

Stick a seed in the ground and let the DNA 'sew' atoms together and in a few years you have a tree.

No magic is required for the sewing machine or DNA to work.


but there is and thats what iv been trying to get at all along. what powers this sewing machine? we may know much about how the machine fits together and possibly even be able to build the machine, but we don't know anything about the power that runs the machine. and thats what i tend to call god.


Edited by Archemetis (08/31/07 04:15 PM)


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OfflineArchemetis
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Registered: 06/21/04
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7356177 - 08/31/07 04:20 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:


They could well see the great mystery and not attribute it to a God; as in Taoism.

What are these specific questions you refer to? If they're the ones you listed about none of them need a God. God is subjective. As is the lack of God. I choose agnosticism. I'm open to anything, but realize that if no one has proven the existence of God or the lack thereof then I'm most likely not going to be the one to find the final proof. So I waste little time on the matter. IMO my life would not change if I found out there was a God.


i have no arguments with taoists as thats probably the closest term i could define myself as. apparently the issue is a language barrier, specifically how to define god. the tao is synonymous with god in my book. does the tao not power the machine?


Edited by Archemetis (08/31/07 04:21 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Archemetis]
    #7356268 - 08/31/07 04:51 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I have said this many times but we could use a better term than God. That term for most, mostly coveys the image of a persona. Gods and Goddesses are all sentient beings. They reflect the image of man/woman in some form or another and God is used to support certain religious views that have to do with human desires (mostly for control of oneself or another humans actions or their territory.) Let's dispense with this, IMO, inaccurate and confusing term.

I honestly think many are afraid of using another term.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (08/31/07 04:51 PM)


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 4,103
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Re: Fellow Atheists / Agnostics [Re: Atheist]
    #7356272 - 08/31/07 04:51 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The bible does not describe reality and the story of Jesus was written hundreds of years after he allegedly existed. There is absolutely no record of him from his alleged time of life or from the generation that lived after him or even afterward. The council of Nicea, where people cut and pasted the local religious beliefs to form christianity, is further evidence that it is not a valid model of reality or history whatsoever. To be religious is to jump to too many conclusions. Why jump to conclusions? It is better to have humility and acknowledge that we are limited in our ability to know the answers to the questions we have.

people who decided what was canon christianity supposedly did so with the help of god. So they claim their god exists, and then support his existence by claiming this same god helped them know the truth!


--------------------
Namaste


Edited by RedNucleus (08/31/07 05:04 PM)


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