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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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The Generic Religion Bashing thread
    #8559308 - 06/24/08 08:00 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

My apologies to WhiskeyClone for not yet writing the 'Ultimate Christian Bashing' thread.




Why do I cover the same tired, old ground? Simple! Because I rarely get a straightforward answer to my reasonable queries.

Let's try again.

1. Religions lay out a set of laws to follow to get closer to or to please their God(s).

2. People join/follow such religions allegedly because they believe in the teachings.

3. Therefore religious members should diligently attempt to follow the teachings and avoid sin.

As the difference in immoral acts is not lower among religious groups than non-religious group (in general) then we MUST conclude one or both of the following:

1. The rules are impossible to follow.

2. The followers really don't give a damn about pleasing their God and/or walking their chosen path beyond lip service.

If I am in error, I would like to hear it. Try to stay on track.


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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8559583 - 06/24/08 09:13 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

As the difference in immoral acts is not lower among religious groups than non-religious group




Provide a source or claim this as speculation.

I would say it is accepted that your first conclusion is more accurate.


In Christianity, the abandonment of Old Testament law and creation of a new covenant through Christ is a prime example of what is to be perceived as our inability to follow God's law.

Stoicism gives a simple commission to live in tune with nature, which includes the dismissal of issues beyond our control. How many people attempt to control issues and circumstances beyond our grasp?

If anything, religious doctrine sets forth principles we should strive for, and failing that, understand that we aren't perfect.

I believe any individual can fall into one of these two conclusions you've given, but disagree that a believer must fall into one as  a result of sin or misconduct.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Crasher]
    #8559735 - 06/24/08 09:48 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I'm in agreement with Crasher.

In fact, last semester, in Social Psychology...the stats show that crimes are committed less by religious people.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: TameMe]
    #8560004 - 06/24/08 10:45 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:
In fact, last semester, in Social Psychology...the stats show that crimes are committed less by religious people.




Does this mean religious people are making the laws?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Cracka_X]
    #8560108 - 06/24/08 11:13 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I wasn't jumping to that conclusion.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: TameMe]
    #8560265 - 06/24/08 11:56 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:
I'm in agreement with Crasher.

In fact, last semester, in Social Psychology...the stats show that crimes are committed less by religious people.




I recommend that you verify those statistics.  Did your textbook cite sources?  Here's some interesting data:

Quote:

In 2005, about 1 out of every 136 U.S. residents was incarcerated either in prison or jail.[13] The total amount being 2,320,359, with 1,446,269 in state and federal prisons and 747,529 in local jails.




Map of religious adherents in U.S.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/compuswrld.htm

For more about this, check out this post.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Veritas]
    #8560635 - 06/25/08 01:46 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

There is no sociologically valid basis for comparing "theists to nontheists" with regards to incarceration rates (or any other sociological measure) because "theists" do not constitute an identifiable social group. The fact that non-practicing (functionally nonreligious) people are highly over-represented among prisoners is a separate issue, apart from questions relating to belief and philosophical position.
To consider incarceration rates of "atheists" vs. "theists" is like comparing Hispanics to non-Hispanics. While it may be possible to group figures that way, it doesn't make a lot of sense to do so. Non-Hispanics are better broken down into Asians, African-Americans and Whites (if one doesn't further break them down by other factors such as age, education, etc.) Likewise, it makes no sense to group all non-atheists together, as if Amish, Muslims, Quakers, Baha'is, Hindus, Presbyterians, Orthodox Jews, Baptists, Deists, Lutherans, Unitarians, Rastafarians, Wiccans, etc., all exhibited similar behavior. Obviously some of these groups exhibit relatively little criminal behavior, while others would exhibit relatively more criminal behavior. Certain crimes are more prevalent among certain groups. 85% of Americans cite a specific religious affiliation. So if you combine figures for people of all religious affiliations you get essentially the same figure that you would get for the whole U.S. population. The figure would only be different if essentially all religious groups were skewed in one direction, which they are not.

A person's philosophical position about the existence of God is distinct from that person's ethical behavior. A person's position on this single point is not a predictor of ethical or criminal behavior, any more than a person's preference for country vs. rock music. Atheism does not necessarily equate to criminal or unethical behavior, just as a professed belief in God does not necessarily preclude criminal or unethical behavior.

One problem faced by some religious writers as well as some atheist writers who have tried to equate religious belief or atheism with criminal behavior (and probably a major reason why there is no empirical data to support either contention) is that a person's philosophical position on this one point is not the major factor in determining criminal behavior. Factors such as level of income, employment/non-employment, level of education, race, geographical region, age, sex, etc. are all tracked by the government and other organizations. All of these characteristics correlate more readily to criminal behavior. (GLBT status, on the other hand, has not been shown to correlate generally to incarceration rate, although it is highly correlated with pedophilia. According to gay researchers Karla Jay and Allen Young, 73 percent of the gay men they report having engaged in sex with boys 16 to 19 years of age or younger; 86 percent of convicted child molesters who molested boys describe themselves as homosexual or bisexual. See also: World Net Daily article; More)

There is no monolithic group of "theists." This is a term that describes a philosophical position (as identified by atheists), not a self-identifying group of people. People may congregate with other Catholics, other Muslims, other hockey fans at a sports event, other Stephen King fans at a book club, other mothers at a play group, other gays at a bar, etc. but "theists" do not come together as a single group, and do not exhibit an identifiable pattern of social behavior. Likewise, atheists are not a monolithic group, and most atheists are not formally affiliated with any organization based on their atheism. Like theists, atheists are found among all races, ages, levels of income, religions, etc., and those factors are going to correlate far more readily to statistically predictable patterns of social behavior, including levels of incarceration.






http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html


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Offlineigwna
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: TameMe]
    #8560757 - 06/25/08 02:19 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:
I'm in agreement with Crasher.

In fact, last semester, in Social Psychology...the stats show that crimes are committed less by religious people.





but that doesn't mean they don't have a track record for being just as brutal.


the crusades, holy wars, jihads, holocaust, whatever you call it its still a lot of dead people because of religion.


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.



Edited by igwna (06/25/08 02:20 AM)


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: igwna]
    #8561102 - 06/25/08 04:32 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Well fuck.  Cut it in half and fight over it??  God-like.:what:


--------------------


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8561664 - 06/25/08 11:00 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
2. People join/follow such religions allegedly because they believe in the teachings.





I don't think this is usually true.  I think most people 'join' religions because their parents take them to church, where they learn bits and pieces of some bastardized mythology and struggle to make sense of it their entire lives.  It's not voluntary, and whatever they happen to learn is just added to their growing body of beliefs about the world they live in.  The mythology may well have been derived from a consistent, sensible method of living one's life, but the version preached today (and in the last ten centuries or so) by power-hungry religious institutions may be completely removed from the original meaning. 

So what are they left with?  A lot of horseshit, with a few gems of useful wisdom.  And maybe, if they think to look for it, the faintest outline of a simple, brilliant set of instructions for living consciously and happily, hidden among volumes and volumes of superfluous fables and other extraneous material.

I think this distortion plagues Christianity much more than say Buddhism, whose core lessons still make perfect logical sense.  There have been dogmatic interpretations and institutions in the past 25 centuries, but they have not interfered with anyone's understanding of the four noble truths, and what can be built on them.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:

As the difference in immoral acts is not lower among religious groups than non-religious group (in general) then we MUST conclude one or both of the following:

1. The rules are impossible to follow.

2. The followers really don't give a damn about pleasing their God and/or walking their chosen path beyond lip service.





MUST eh?

I'm sure those two options cover a lot of people, but what about:

3. The perceived 'reward' for following the rules (closeness to God) is misunderstood by many of the followers, and the nonexistence of the reward they are looking for inspires all sorts of desperate or illogical behavior.  Human nature (as in the desires for security, comfort, esteem, material things) will often win when it comes in conflict with the desire to follow the tenets of one's religion, particularly if they have an utterly mistaken idea of what it is that they will receive in return. 

Quote:

Why do I cover the same tired, old ground? Simple! Because I rarely get a straightforward answer to my reasonable queries.

Let's try again.




What I don't understand is what you hope to accomplish here?  To demonstrate that most contemporary religious behavior is insane?  I think that one's already obvious, isn't it?  It's such an easy target, I guess I just don't know why it's still fun for you after all these years.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8561726 - 06/25/08 11:20 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Would you agree that the claim "religious people commit fewer crimes" would be demonstrated by the percentages of religious believers in prison?  Since the U.S. is one of the most-religious first-world countries, we should be able to see the positive effects of religion in our crime rate and # of people in prison, right?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8561746 - 06/25/08 11:33 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, and just to respond to that drive-by homosexual-bashing reference included in your quote:

Quote:

GLBT status, on the other hand, has not been shown to correlate generally to incarceration rate, although it is highly correlated with pedophilia. According to gay researchers Karla Jay and Allen Young, 73 percent of the gay men they report having engaged in sex with boys 16 to 19 years of age or younger; 86 percent of convicted child molesters who molested boys describe themselves as homosexual or bisexual.




This is B.S.  Pedophilia is highly correlated with heterosexuality, as most childhood sexual abuse is committed against girls by men.  Pedophilia is also highly correlated with being related to or known by children, since most sexual abuse is perpetrated by a relative or friend of the family. 

Child Molestation Article

Also, pedophilia is being sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children, not to teenagers.  Men who have sex with 16 - 19 year olds are not pedophiles.


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Offlinedill705
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Veritas]
    #8561839 - 06/25/08 12:05 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I just want to bash religion...

:bitchsmack:

Stop believing in fairy tales meant to control you by your fear of death.

:bitchslap: Just for good measure.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: dill705]
    #8561914 - 06/25/08 12:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

i'll just join in.

religion is like totally dumb.

recently i did explain to two mormons how i think we're making machines to replace humans because robots would have a greater capacity for holiness than us.  i thought that was pretty fun and couldn't have done it in a religion less world.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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Offlinedill705
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8561920 - 06/25/08 12:37 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8561962 - 06/25/08 12:49 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


1. Religions lay out a set of laws to follow to get closer to or to please their God(s).




Not all religions do. Wicca doesn't. "Do as you want but harm no one" is a rule to live in harmony with the cosmos and have a smooth life, not to please a God.

Quote:

2. People join/follow such religions allegedly because they believe in the teachings.




Many people do but not all. The Dutch Satanic Church is an example of a religion many members joined for the tax benefits.

Quote:


3. Therefore religious members should diligently attempt to follow the teachings and avoid sin.




Not all religions believe there is such a thing as sin. "Therefore" does not apply as your above conditions are false, and overly generalized.


Quote:


As the difference in immoral acts is not lower among religious groups than non-religious group (in general)




PROVE IT. You cannot. In fact it is blatantly false because the Satanic Church encourages and expects people to engage in immoral acts. Generalizing once more are we?

Quote:

1. The rules are impossible to follow.

2. The followers really don't give a damn about pleasing their God and/or walking their chosen path beyond lip service.





No shoes, no shirt, no service.

Your logic is flawed and based on sweeping generalizations without intimate knowledge of all individual religions which are painted with the same brush.

The title "The Generic Religion Bashing thread" would be the only correct concept in your threadstarting post were it not your line of reasoning is specific, not generic.

Your use of language is correct however.

:owned:


--------------------
YE OLDE CLICK-O-RAMA FEST :fairy: ASANTE'S PREPAREDNESS 101
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Edited by Asante (06/25/08 12:50 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Asante]
    #8562051 - 06/25/08 01:11 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


   
Quote:

As the difference in immoral acts is not lower among religious groups than non-religious group (in general)




PROVE IT. You cannot. In fact it is blatantly false because the Satanic Church encourages and expects people to engage in immoral acts. Generalizing once more are we?




I think you may have missed the "is not lower" part.  :confused:  He also qualified this statement with "in general," so it has already been established that he is generalizing.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8562087 - 06/25/08 01:20 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

What I don't understand is what you hope to accomplish here? 




Even more puzzling is the folks that know I am a broken record and yet still wander in to counter my lame arguments with even lamer counter-arguments.

:rofl2:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8562190 - 06/25/08 01:44 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
86 percent of convicted child molesters who molested boys describe themselves as homosexual or bisexual.




This is a very sad topic, but this sentence is fortunately quite funny.

Males that molest other males are usually homosexual or bisexual - OMG surprise!


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8562204 - 06/25/08 01:46 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

What I don't understand is what you hope to accomplish here? 




Even more puzzling is the folks that know I am a broken record and yet still wander in to counter my lame arguments with even lamer counter-arguments.

:rofl2:




*sigh*

It is just so hard to get a straightforward answer to my reasonable queries


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8562238 - 06/25/08 01:52 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
86 percent of convicted child molesters who molested boys describe themselves as homosexual or bisexual.




This is a very sad topic, but this sentence is fortunately quite funny.

Males that molest other males are usually homosexual or bisexual - OMG surprise!




:lol:

I thought that one was too obvious to address.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8562255 - 06/25/08 01:56 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It is just so hard to get a straightforward answer to my reasonable queries




I feel your pain, brother. :heart:


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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8562777 - 06/25/08 03:56 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

What I don't understand is what you hope to accomplish here? 




Even more puzzling is the folks that know I am a broken record and yet still wander in to counter my lame arguments with even lamer counter-arguments.

:rofl2:




So your counter argument to the post is to ignore everyone's perspective and continue on with negative inflammatory comments?

I didn't see a single reply regarding a baseless accusation that religious people commit as many as, if not more, unmoral acts than non-religious people.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...


Edited by Crasher (06/25/08 07:39 PM)


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8562804 - 06/25/08 04:04 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I thought most people who molested boys were lesbians :confused:

That said, child molestation is a crime of violence. It is up for debate whether a pedophiliac act can even be described as heterosexual or homosexual, as the motives often tend to be violent in nature, expressing themselves sexually, rather than sexual acts accompanied with violence. This is hotly debated on all forms of rape by the way.

Evidence would be prison sex - otherwise straight makes in jail who take their frustrations out on other men, then after release continue a heterosexual lifestyle.

Its not sex as an act of love, of fondness of, but as anb act of aggression, in case of pedophiles directed at a helpless target, like muggers who only mug the elderly.






I for one like to see the crime statistics of believers vs nonbelievers also.


--------------------
YE OLDE CLICK-O-RAMA FEST :fairy: ASANTE'S PREPAREDNESS 101
Get 1 month's supplies in case of illness or calamity and help loved ones.
Strengthen your friendship ties - and exchange more favors and advice !

OMNICYCLION    SUPPORT TICKETS  STORE  SPONSORS/VENDORS  TREES
OMNICALCULATOR :mushroom: CULTIVATE!! :mushroom: DISCORD :mushroom: REDDIT :mushroom: FACEBOOK


please help the teachings of  The Omnicyclion  reach a wider audience
thank you for volunteering your efforts towards this mind (r)evolution

PAXG: 0x52e54ca2780894ea3f839ca0904be2c319c813e9 what's paxg?


Edited by Asante (06/25/08 04:09 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Crasher]
    #8562957 - 06/25/08 04:49 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crasher said:
I didn't see a single reply regarding a baseless accusation that religious people commit more unmoral acts than non-religious people.




No one claimed this.  :confused:  OC said that religious folks do not commit fewer immoral acts than non-religious folks.  Presumably, the religious dictates by which they live would cause them to commit fewer immoral acts, yet the prison population does not reflect this difference.  :shrug:


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Veritas]
    #8562993 - 06/25/08 04:59 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Presumably, the religious dictates by which they live would cause them to commit fewer immoral acts, yet the prison population does not reflect this difference.





Have you a source for this? And ofcourse of people who were religious before the offense, not ten-to-lifers who became saints in jail :smile:


--------------------
YE OLDE CLICK-O-RAMA FEST :fairy: ASANTE'S PREPAREDNESS 101
Get 1 month's supplies in case of illness or calamity and help loved ones.
Strengthen your friendship ties - and exchange more favors and advice !

OMNICYCLION    SUPPORT TICKETS  STORE  SPONSORS/VENDORS  TREES
OMNICALCULATOR :mushroom: CULTIVATE!! :mushroom: DISCORD :mushroom: REDDIT :mushroom: FACEBOOK


please help the teachings of  The Omnicyclion  reach a wider audience
thank you for volunteering your efforts towards this mind (r)evolution

PAXG: 0x52e54ca2780894ea3f839ca0904be2c319c813e9 what's paxg?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Asante]
    #8563020 - 06/25/08 05:06 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Lets take a look.

Teen pregnancy out of wedlook is considered immoral by most western religions.

Teens rarely get pregnant in prison.

The highest rates of teen pregancy occur in the most religious areas of the country.

Do the math.


--------------------


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Asante]
    #8563062 - 06/25/08 05:16 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I would love to see a source citing either position.

I recall the teenage pregnancy study but can't find it on this damn iPhone.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Asante]
    #8563076 - 06/25/08 05:20 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Criminals are polled as to their religious affiliation upon entry into prison, and all the major religions are well-represented.  I'll see if I can find links, but common sense indicates that, of the 2 million people in jail and prison, many of them are religious.  Consider the percentages of the U.S. population--if 1 out of 130 people in the U.S. are in jail or prison, what are the odds that they are all non-religious?

Much info here: http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html


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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Veritas]
    #8563623 - 06/25/08 07:42 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Criminals are polled as to their religious affiliation upon entry into prison, and all the major religions are well-represented.  I'll see if I can find links, but common sense indicates that, of the 2 million people in jail and prison, many of them are religious.  Consider the percentages of the U.S. population--if 1 out of 130 people in the U.S. are in jail or prison, what are the odds that they are all non-religious?

Much info here: http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html




Many of them state a religious affiliation, which may or may not make someone religious. Many catholics I've encountered claim to be so, and follow about 0% of their affiliated practices.

Now, if the basis for this thread was purely affiliation, it would be an entirely different matter, IMO.


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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Crasher]
    #8563634 - 06/25/08 07:45 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I think that the lack of application of their beliefs is exactly the point here.  If we are only allowed to examine the behavior of those few religious believers who practice what they preach, the data will be skewed.  Besides, we might not be able to contact all three people whom we would need to survey.  :smirk:


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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Veritas]
    #8563642 - 06/25/08 07:48 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

And how many "found God" between committing the crime and the sentencing?  I'm sure someone going into prison is going to admit they are a hardcore, unrepentant atheist because they really, really think that will help them get early parole.  :rolleyes:

And, the quote I offered earlier shows why the OP's reasoning is flawed.


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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8563657 - 06/25/08 07:53 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

There is no way to know what their religious affiliation was prior to committing the crime.  However, the # of people in prison is a LARGE chunk of the population of one of the most religious countries in the world.  Don't you think it is likely that religious folks commit just as many crimes as non-religious folks?  I agree with the author of your quote that religious beliefs have little or nothing to do with ethical behavior, but this is NOT what the religious folks claim.  If being religious is supposed to improve your behavior, why are so many people in the U.S. committing crimes?


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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Veritas]
    #8563666 - 06/25/08 07:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Got to love statistics.


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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Veritas]
    #8563679 - 06/25/08 07:58 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Besides, we might not be able to contact all three people whom we would need to survey.




:rimshot:


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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8563773 - 06/25/08 08:20 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If being religious is supposed to improve your behavior, why are so many people in the U.S. committing crimes?




because affiliation is not belief. Many people  only pay lip service, but I believe that that says more about their agenda than anything about religion , or true followers.


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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Veritas]
    #8563882 - 06/25/08 08:58 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

if 1 out of 130 people in the U.S. are in jail or prison

It's up to 1 out of every 100 and a big fraction are harmless potheads and such who just wanna be left alone.

The Associated Press link where I first read this is gone, sorry, but if you google around, you can probably find the source article and others that back this:

--

NEW YORK (AP) — For the first time in U.S. history, more than one of every 100 adults is in jail or prison, according to a new report documenting America's rank as the world's No. 1 incarcerator. It urges states to curtail corrections spending by placing fewer low-risk offenders behind bars.

Using state-by-state data, the report says 2,319,258 Americans were in jail or prison at the start of 2008 — one out of every 99.1 adults. Whether per capita or in raw numbers, it's more than any other nation.

The report, released Thursday by the Pew Center on the States, said the 50 states spent more than $49 billion on corrections last year, up from less than $11 billion 20 years earlier. The rate of increase for prison costs was six times greater than for higher education spending, the report said.

The steadily growing inmate population "is saddling cash-strapped states with soaring costs they can ill afford and failing to have a clear impact either on recidivism or overall crime," the report said.

Susan Urahn, managing director of the Pew Center on the States, said budget woes are pressuring many states to consider new, cost-saving corrections policies that might have been shunned in the recent past for fear of appearing soft on crime.

"We're seeing more and more states being creative because of tight budgets," she said in an interview. "They want to be tough on crime. They want to be a law-and-order state. But they also want to save money, and they want to be effective."

The report cited Kansas and Texas as states that have acted decisively to slow the growth of their inmate population. They are making greater use of community supervision for low-risk offenders and employing sanctions other than reimprisonment for offenders who commit technical violations of parole and probation rules.

"The new approach, born of bipartisan leadership, is allowing the two states to ensure they have enough prison beds for violent offenders while helping less dangerous lawbreakers become productive, taxpaying citizens," the report said.

While many state governments have shown bipartisan interest in curbing prison growth, there also are persistent calls to proceed cautiously.

"We need to be smarter," said David Muhlhausen, a criminal justice expert with the conservative Heritage Foundation. "We're not incarcerating all the people who commit serious crimes. But we're also probably incarcerating people who don't need to be."

According to the report, the inmate population increased last year in 36 states and the federal prison system.

The largest percentage increase — 12 percent — was in Kentucky, where Gov. Steve Beshear highlighted the cost of corrections in his budget speech last month. He noted that the state's crime rate had increased only about 3 percent in the past 30 years, while the state's inmate population has increased by 600 percent.

The report was compiled by the Pew Center's Public Safety Performance Project, which is working with 13 states on developing programs to divert offenders from prison without jeopardizing public safety.

"Getting tough on criminals has gotten tough on taxpayers," said the project's director, Adam Gelb.

According to the report, the average annual cost per prisoner was $23,876, with Rhode Island spending the most ($44,860) and Louisiana the least ($13,009). It said California — which faces a $16 billion budget shortfall — spent $8.8 billion on corrections last year, while Texas, which has slightly more inmates, was a distant second with spending of $3.3 billion.

On average, states spend 6.8 percent of their general fund dollars on corrections, the report said. Oregon had the highest spending rate, at 10.9 percent; Alabama the lowest at 2.6 percent.

Four states — Vermont, Michigan, Oregon and Connecticut — now spend more on corrections than they do on higher education, the report said.

"These sad facts reflect a very distorted set of national priorities," said Sen. Bernie Sanders, an independent from Vermont, referring to the full report. "Perhaps, if we adequately invested in our children and in education, kids who now grow up to be criminals could become productive workers and taxpayers."

The report said prison growth and higher incarceration rates do not reflect an increase in the nation's overall population. Instead, it said, more people are behind bars mainly because of tough sentencing measures, such as "three-strikes" laws, that result in longer prison stays.

"For some groups, the incarceration numbers are especially startling," the report said. "While one in 30 men between the ages of 20 and 34 is behind bars, for black males in that age group the figure is one in nine."

The racial disparity for women also is stark. One of every 355 white women aged 35 to 39 is behind bars, compared with one of every 100 black women in that age group.

The nationwide figures, as of Jan. 1, include 1,596,127 people in state and federal prisons and 723,131 in local jails. That's out of almost 230 million American adults.

The report said the United States incarcerates more people than any other nation, far ahead of more populous China with 1.5 million people behind bars. It said the U.S. also is the leader in inmates per capita (750 per 100,000 people), ahead of Russia (628 per 100,000) and other former Soviet bloc nations which round out the Top 10.

The U.S. also is among the world leaders in capital punishment. According to Amnesty International, its 53 executions in 2006 were exceeded only by China, Iran, Pakistan, Iraq and Sudan.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Diploid]
    #8563934 - 06/25/08 09:12 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

BTW, in keeping with the theme of this thread, realize that many (most?) religious people are anti-marijuana and help keep prohibition laws on the books that maintain the US's planet wide per-capita incarceration record.

I wonder what would Jesus do if he saw me smoking a joint? Throw me in a government cage or leave me alone?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Diploid]
    #8563989 - 06/25/08 09:24 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Jesus was the original hippie. He would be bogarting that joint BIG time. :spliff:


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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Diploid]
    #8564001 - 06/25/08 09:27 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
BTW, in keeping with the theme of this thread, realize that many (most?) religious people are anti-marijuana and help keep prohibition laws on the books that maintain the US's planet wide per-capita incarceration record.

I wonder what would Jesus do if he saw me smoking a joint? Throw me in a government cage or leave me alone?



Im pretty sure it would go down like this...




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Re: The Generic Religion Bashing thread [Re: Veritas]
    #8564667 - 06/26/08 12:29 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
  Don't you think it is likely that religious folks commit just as many crimes as non-religious folks?




It depends on the definition of "religious folks," doesn't it?  If by religious we merely mean intellectual assent to a particular set of doctrines, then yes, the levels should be the same demographically.  However, if by religious we mean those who live out the ethical prescriptions/prohibitions that align with legal behavior, then no, obviously, they would not unless the religious text in question encourages illegal behavior.

Or there is another variable as yet not considered.  If a religious text instructs its adherents to live in such a way they violate unethical laws according to the ethics outlined in their text, they would be living out the prescriptions of their text while being incarcerated.

 
Quote:

I agree with the author of your quote that religious beliefs have little or nothing to do with ethical behavior, but this is NOT what the religious folks claim.




If anything, I have heard more atheists extol their putative moral virtues much more so than religious folks.  St. John, putative author of more than one New Testament book said:

Quote:

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.




Now if St. John said that, how could Christians claim otherwise?

Quote:

If being religious is supposed to improve your behavior, why are so many people in the U.S. committing crimes?




You'll have to define what you mean by religious before that question can be answered with clarity.  When that is done the answer should be axiomatic.


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