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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643424 -

What are you, then? 

By my best guess, consciousness.  The space in which my perceptions occur.  I know many believe consciousness is a purely a function of biology...  This strikes me as a premature conclusion.  I doubt humans have even the slightest clue as to what consciousness is.  Other people and animals are conscious too... they share that trait with me, which leads me to believe consciousness is something larger than one organism.  I don't think it comes individually packaged.  Like you, I can only guess.  Whatever the source, consciousness is not any more tangible than thoughts or feelings.


Did you exist before you were conceived? 

Will you exist after your body disintegrates?

It would be interesting to know, but it seems to be none of my business at the moment.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8643436 -

Quote:
This strikes me as a premature conclusion.  I doubt humans have even the slightest clue as to what consciousness is.


It may be premature, and we may not have the slightest clue, OR we may be inches from determining that consciousness is an emergent property of our complexity as organisms.  :shrug:  I prefer to go with what we do know about, and not invent explanations for what we don't know (yet).

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643465 -

We all have our hypotheses.

The one thing they have in common is that they are invented explanations and have not been proven.



What was this thread about again?  :lol:


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8643506 -

Sorry, I missed this one the first time around:

Quote:
Inner space journeys, huh??  What's that...??


Exploration of one's own mental landscape.  Poking around in the dark, dusty corners to see what skitters out.  Double-digging the dirt in your emotional garden to aerate the soil.  Cleaning the windows of your perception with hot water and vinegar to remove the fingerprints of habit.  Wandering through the woods of potential which surround your established homestead of living.

I think you get what I mean.  :grin:  I don't call it spiritual, because that term carries negative connotations for me.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643514 -

Veritas said:
backfromthedead said:
Even if we are engaging in "spiritual" thoughts, we are still immersed in the humble moment to moment.

To me being immersed in the humble moment to moment is very spiritual.  It seems to me that you have confused the notion of transcending with escapism.  When awareness 'expands' you are not escaping anything.  You are more aware of the subtlety, the humble, the moment to moment...  Imo.:confused:



Transcend: To exist above and independent of (material experience or the universe)

Sounds like the illusion of escape to me.  :shrug:  How can one be immersed and transcendent at the same time?

It sounds to me like you are talking about becoming more aware, more immersed, more open to material experience & not "above" and "independent of" it.


Although transcendence is defined as the opposite of immanence, the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Some theologians and metaphysicians of the great religious traditions affirm that God, or Brahman, is both within and beyond the universe (panentheism); in it, but not of it; simultaneously pervading it and surpassing it.
-wiki

Semantics really.  To transcend definitions for a moment...  Is it really possible to 'exist above and independent' of this world...??  Disconnected...??  For sure.  I feel our society is disconnected.  This is why I feel that the psychedelic experience is a necessary right of passage.  It in effect reconnects you to a source within yourself, within nature, of nature.  Call it spiritual, call it inner journeying...  What you are transcending is the erroneous way of life that seems to be in majority.  In the effort of return.


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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8643573 -

Quote:
Is it really possible to 'exist above and independent' of this world...??  Disconnected...??  For sure.


Perhaps mentally disconnected, but not physically.  We exist within this world, whatever the hell it is, we have bodies, we have senses, we experience objects AND subjects, and all of this continues whether we opt to mentally unplug or not.  This thread is about the spiritual "idealists" who propose that we mentally disavow our materiality in favor of an illusionary escape into spiritual transcendence.  This includes the Christian set with their concepts of "sin" and the reward of Heaven for those who refrain from sin.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8643591 -

that term carries negative connotations for me.

I feel its the same reason I won't tell anybody I've had a 'Kundalini Awakening' in those terms...  Too much Bullshit all around.  But what grows on Bullshit and offers up something way cooler than Bullshit.  Fuckin mushrooms.  That is a rad pattern to me.  I'll take Bullshit and make God...  No prob, bob.

HI THIS IS BILLY MAYS HERE WITH OXYCLEAN...!!  ARE YOUR DOORS OF PERCEPTION CRUDDED WITH HABIT...??  DO YOU NEEDS YOUR WHITES WHITER...??  BRIGHTS BRIGHTER...??  CALL NOW AND GET OUR AMAZING 2 1/2 POUND TUB...!!:mushroom2:


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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8643613 -

illusionary escape into spiritual transcendence.

Its really not that bad of an idea all things considered...  Its like the Prius.


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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8643701 -

Quote:
HI THIS IS BILLY MAYS HERE WITH OXYCLEAN...!!  ARE YOUR DOORS OF PERCEPTION CRUDDED WITH HABIT...??  DO YOU NEEDS YOUR WHITES WHITER...??  BRIGHTS BRIGHTER...??  CALL NOW AND GET OUR AMAZING 2 1/2 POUND TUB...!!


:rofl:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8643878 -

Surely there are those that know,

How would you know that? You would have to be one that knows.

And don't call me Shirley.:mad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Rose]
    #8643885 -

I believe ALL THOUGHT is spiritual.

So my fantasies of rape and murder are spiritual? Well that changes everything.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Icelander]
    #8643895 -

Icelander said:
So my fantasies of rape and murder are spiritual? Well that changes everything.:thumbup:


See? Spirituality can be fun.


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Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Rose]
    #8643914 -

and profitable.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Icelander]
    #8644116 -

hi ice, always knew you were watching
s'excellent


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8644143 -

Veritas said:
That sounds fine.  Again, this seems more like expansion of awareness than an attempt to transcend our humanity.  My criticism is reserved for the spiritual ideals which propose a permanent escape from (and an implied or explicit distaste for) our material existence as humans.


Is it so hard to understand why some people feel that way?

The distaste comes from seeing all of the senseless suffering that occurs because of material world trappings.

For example, you have a very healthy attitude towards your body, sexuality, sexual exploration between two consenting adults. It's a beautiful thing.

There are others out there who see human beings as objects, they can just take sex from through rape, or worse, those who abduct children and sell them as sex slaves on the black market, to those who see them as sexual objects/toys. If rape or child sex slavery, or there suffering are not distasteful to you, that's interesting.

What about the woman who was evicted from her lifelong home because Donald Trump wanted to build a Casino on her land? Not distasteful? Greed is yummy to your palette???

What about bombing a families homes and their bodies to shreds for the power oil brings? Delicious? Do these material world trappings of the lower human nature wet your appetite for more?

How is it not understandable that there are people who want to work very hard to transcend their own lower human nature, that if otherwise given into and indulged would cause a lot of suffering for others.

I'd like to understand why you have a problem with people working on that?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Icelander]
    #8644170 -

Icelander said:
Surely there are those that know,

How would you know that? You would have to be one that knows.

And don't call me Shirley.:mad:


Shirley is what my friend calls his weed plant...

I will say that I know certain things to be True.


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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #8644312 -

Quote:
I'd like to understand why you have a problem with people working on that?


I do?  Is this like that question "when did you stop beating your wife?"  :lol:

The problems you've mentioned are human mental health issues.  Obviously, humanity is still experiencing some "growing pains" as we evolve into our new brain.  I don't think that this sort of behavior has anything to do with our so-called "lower nature."  Does this mean that it will help us to put all of our energy and power into an illusion of escaping from materiality and humanity?  :confused:

Please understand, I am not dissing meditation, yoga, gurus, kundalini, acupuncture, Kabbalah, and the like.  I am addressing in particular the persistent fantasy that we can achieve a state of permanent enlightenment in which we are no longer subject to the realities of being human.  I am also specifically addressing the teachings which state that sensuality and appreciation of the material world are less than spirituality and appreciation of the immaterial world.

Have I made myself clear now?

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8644359 -

You cleared yourself up well.

I would like to hear more from those you say are seeking to escape their human beingness all together, via "enlightenment". Would that even work?

Why don't those people just off themselves?

Are you sure they are not just working to achieve a different state of what being human can also be or mean?

I suppose now I want to better understand those you are talking about better.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8644532 -

backfromthedead said:
Icelander said:
Surely there are those that know,

How would you know that? You would have to be one that knows.

And don't call me Shirley.:mad:


Shirley is what my friend calls his weed plant...

I will say that I know certain things to be True.


I will say the opposite. I don't know for certain anything even the personal experiences I have had are subject to my subjective interpretation which could be wrong as I am not the creator of all this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Icelander]
    #8644627 -

I guess when you write your ideas to a group
the readers are each at a different ability to understand what you mean:
it is very hard to be able to speak to pretas and devas at the same time.
being able to do that would be very enlightened indeed.



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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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