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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Rose]
    #8643150 -

If spirituality comprises everything which is not tangible, how can we be "spiritual beings"?

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643166 -

veritas;
are you being argumentative?
it's really amazingly out of character
normally you are the answer to everything
must be a rough day


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8643167 -

Quote:
It is only about the humble moment to moment human condition.


Exactly my point!  :smile:  What else is there, really?  Even if we are engaging in "spiritual" thoughts, we are still immersed in the humble moment to moment.  Our stomach is digesting food, our lungs are inflating and deflating, our heart is pumping, our blood is moving through our veins.  There is no transcending our humanity.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643173 -

right but we bend our habits with our minds to transcend our crap.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643177 -

Veritas said:
If spirituality comprises everything which is not tangible, how can we be "spiritual beings"?


From my perspective, I am intangible.  I am not my body. 

:monkeydance:


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8643179 -

redgreenvines said:
veritas;
are you being argumentative?
it's really amazingly out of character
normally you are the answer to everything
must be a rough day


Who, me?  :lol:  It's not a rough day at all, actually, I'm enjoying myself immensely. I feel energetic and lively and young, and I'm in the mood for some in-depth philosophical  examination.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8643181 -

Faith seems too much like giving up one's right to question and doubt and test what IS vs. what is not.

Faith is one polarity, with its opposite being doubt.  I might make assumptions, sorry.  I only stand for the power of experience that I have encountered.  If you are willing to approach these experiences with some faith, some doubt in the interest of testing what is, and what is not...  This is what these tools are used for, imo.  I understand the Communion in a Church to be a mock continuation of this sacramental ingestion.  In no way am I affiliated with a modern Church.  I don't adhere to any faith based principles.  But...  In ingesting a substance that is known to 'work', proven actually at least a few times sine the 60s:mushroom2:, it is not hard to connect with a part of you that readily identifies with 'what is going on.'  Not that you have to believe in anything.  Seeing this part of history in the Light of Truth is achieved through faith, imo.  Faith in yourself, mostly.  Faith allows you to step out on a limb knowing that you don't know if you should.  When is the last time you had any type of psychedelic experience...??  If you don't mind my asking, and maybe me making more assumptions.


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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8643182 -

WhiskeyClone said:
Veritas said:
If spirituality comprises everything which is not tangible, how can we be "spiritual beings"?


From my perspective, I am intangible.  I am not my body. 

:monkeydance:


What are you, then?  Did you exist before you were conceived?  Will you exist after your body disintegrates?

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8643209 -

backfromthedead said:
Faith seems too much like giving up one's right to question and doubt and test what IS vs. what is not.

Faith is one polarity, with its opposite being doubt.


Hmmm...I don't see that.  If faith is belief without evidence, wouldn't its' opposite be the suspension of belief in the absence of evidence?  Or perhaps the desire to search for evidence?

Quote:
I might make assumptions, sorry.  I only stand for the power of experience that I have encountered.


Yes, I've had some powerful experiences, too, yet I have resisted coming to conclusions about what those experiences mean.  I continue to question and explore, rather than indulging in what I see as the finality of faith.

Quote:
When is the last time you had any type of psychedelic experience...??  If you don't mind my asking, and maybe me making more assumptions.


It's been two months, if you mean an externally-induced psychedelic experience.  :wink:  I frequently engage in innerspace journeys without the use of substances.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8643216 -

redgreenvines said:
right but we bend our habits with our minds to transcend our crap.


Yes, I do think that the habitual mental crap may be transcended.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643231 -

Even if we are engaging in "spiritual" thoughts, we are still immersed in the humble moment to moment.

To me being immersed in the humble moment to moment is very spiritual.  It seems to me that you have confused the notion of transcending with escapism.  When awareness 'expands' you are not escaping anything.  You are more aware of the subtlety, the humble, the moment to moment...  Imo.:confused:


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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643232 -

Veritas said:
If spirituality comprises everything which is not tangible, how can we be "spiritual beings"?


Semantics?

:tongue:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8643254 -

suspension of belief in the absence of evidence?  Or perhaps the desire to search for evidence?

Doubt is a good word to use, perhaps.


Inner space journeys, huh??  What's that...??  Some NEW AGE BULLSHIT...!?:lol:


So you don't call it spiritual...  Cool.  Glad we cleared that up.:what:


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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8643257 -

backfromthedead said:
Even if we are engaging in "spiritual" thoughts, we are still immersed in the humble moment to moment.

To me being immersed in the humble moment to moment is very spiritual.  It seems to me that you have confused the notion of transcending with escapism.  When awareness 'expands' you are not escaping anything.  You are more aware of the subtlety, the humble, the moment to moment...  Imo.:confused:


Nailed it.

Thanks.

I didn't want to get involved in this conversation, and now I don't feel a need to do so. :wink:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643261 -

Veritas said:
If spirituality comprises everything which is not tangible, how can we be "spiritual beings"?

Our very consciousness, that which enables us to recognize ourselves and contemplate our existence, is intangible.  Our bodies are tangible, but you cannot point to any part of the body and say "That is you."  "You" are intangible, or "spiritual" if you like.  Even the senses...You use them, but you can't feel a sense.  You can't grasp your seeing or touching.  Maybe this is the line of thinking he was using?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8643346 -

faith is attitude
if it is used to ballance the twisted life great
most of faith is pretty twisted, however, and that needs lots of adjustment.

i prefer the most generic term of attitude to refer to what we put in mind that can bend the reality that we are.

the moments of mind without attitude are the most precious treats.
some call it ego loss, but it is more subtle than that, or less.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #8643351 -

JacquesCousteau said:
backfromthedead said:
Even if we are engaging in "spiritual" thoughts, we are still immersed in the humble moment to moment.

To me being immersed in the humble moment to moment is very spiritual.  It seems to me that you have confused the notion of transcending with escapism.  When awareness 'expands' you are not escaping anything.  You are more aware of the subtlety, the humble, the moment to moment...  Imo.:confused:


Nailed it.

Thanks.

I didn't want to get involved in this conversation, and now I don't feel a need to do so. :wink:


I think he knows his stuff.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8643356 -

backfromthedead said:
Even if we are engaging in "spiritual" thoughts, we are still immersed in the humble moment to moment.

To me being immersed in the humble moment to moment is very spiritual.  It seems to me that you have confused the notion of transcending with escapism.  When awareness 'expands' you are not escaping anything.  You are more aware of the subtlety, the humble, the moment to moment...  Imo.:confused:



Transcend: To exist above and independent of (material experience or the universe)

Sounds like the illusion of escape to me.  :shrug:  How can one be immersed and transcendent at the same time?

It sounds to me like you are talking about becoming more aware, more immersed, more open to material experience & not "above" and "independent of" it.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643368 -

above and independent of the shackles or chains of habit
and in a good position to notice some "lighter" aspects of life, ergo uplifted.

like helium


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8643419 -

That sounds fine.  Again, this seems more like expansion of awareness than an attempt to transcend our humanity.  My criticism is reserved for the spiritual ideals which propose a permanent escape from (and an implied or explicit distaste for) our material existence as humans.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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