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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8642292 -

My best guess is that "mind" is the experience of neurological functions, and thus not separate from matter in any way.  "Spirituality" may be an idea or it may have some variety of non-material existence--I don't know, and I don't think that anyone else knows.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8642356 -

Great post Veritas :congrats:

Yes, I think enlightenment is misinterpreted as some sort of destination, some mythical realm of mental purity unattainable by everyone but the most devout monks.  I avoid the word enlightenment because it now carries that connotation.

But I don't think everyone has this fabled idea of it.

Quote:
The silly idea that material pleasures, sensual enjoyments, are somehow "less than" the spiritual ideals we have manufactured, would be revealed for the self-loathing nonsense that it is.  Why believe that an unreachable nirvana holds more value than the fleshly joy of eating a ripe nectarine? 


You're right, it is nothing more than the pleasure of sunshine on your face or the sound of the rustling of trees, or even the distant drone of highway traffic.  There are no greater or more meaningful pleasures, IMO. 

But I do believe that cultivation of these experiences does depend on the mental state brought to the activity, and does not depend on the activity itself.  What I might call 'enlightenment' is a mental state, it just isn't a necessarily 'special' one.  And one can get better at being in that state more and more.  There is a discernible peaceful quality to action when it is undertaken with full attention and nonjudgment.  In fact, it is wonderful quality, it bestows an air of completeness and (dare I say) perfection on the moment; it's no wonder people rave about it, wish they owned it, and endlessly seek it.  This mode of action can be brought to (and the resulting sensation of peace and joy can be found in) any activity, whether it is meditating in Tibet or waiting for a friend in the food court.

IMHO the cultivation of this phenomena is the only enlightenment to be found, and there needn't be any mystical or exclusive properties attributed to it.  In my experience, it is indeed the end of suffering, not to say that suffering can never be experienced again, just that in that moment -- which is the only moment -- suffering cannot exist for you. 



Quote:
Everything we desire, all that we long for, is available to us in each moment of our flawed lives.  If we could drop the fantasy, drop the unfair comparisons, drop the judgment of what IS, the treasures of experience would appear before us.



--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

Edited by WhiskeyClone (07/16/08 02:31 PM)

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8642442 -

Quote:
But I do believe that cultivation of these experiences does depend on the mental state brought to the activity, and does not depend on the activity itself.


Hmm...I think it depends upon both.  After all, if you remove the activity, you cannot appreciate it.  If you change the mental state, you also cannot appreciate the activity. 

There are also different degrees of resistance to certain activities, which require greater cultivation of equanimity in order to appreciate.  I must admit that I find it quite easy to enjoy weeding my garden, but challenging to enjoy cleaning the cat's litter box.  If I can increase the positivity and creativity of my mental state to make up for perceived "deficiencies" in my activities, then my overall experience will be one of appreciation.

Quote:
in that moment -- which is the only moment -- suffering cannot exist for you. 


Indeed!  The illusory concept of enlightenment includes the myth of permanence, of escape, of lasting transcendence of that which we judge as less-than.  But the practical POV regarding the means to stop one's specific incidence of suffering is quite useful and effective.  I employ it quite often myself. :smile:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8642477 -

understanding the myth of permanence is an essential aspect to enlightenment IMO:
also meditation practice which involves some mental state changing and general mental agility adds another important aspect which is "taming of the beast"

anyone who has spent the wee hours of the night lost in painful thoughts, fear, obsession will have direct familiarity with the "untamed beast"

as with enlightenment and the clear understanding of impermanence, one must understand that the beast is never actually tamed for good.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8642496 -

So it's more like lighting a match to briefly view your surroundings, vs. turning on an everlasting light bulb.  It seems to me that it is also about recognizing that we ALL have a pack of matches in our pocket, and that they are not the exclusive property of gurus, to be dispensed according to our progress towards a lofty goal.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8642588 -

Everything we desire, all that we long for, is available to us in each moment of our flawed lives.

So true. Just the problem is that we get discouraged and depressed and frustrated with our lot in life.

Your nectarine analogy completely reminded me of T.S. Eliot. "Do I dare to eat a peach?"


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I have no funny saying. I have no quote. I have no ASCII art. I have no video. I have no meme. I have no bolded or italicized font.

My signature sucks.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8642611 -

Veritas said:
Quote:
But I do believe that cultivation of these experiences does depend on the mental state brought to the activity, and does not depend on the activity itself.


Hmm...I think it depends upon both.  After all, if you remove the activity, you cannot appreciate it.  If you change the mental state, you also cannot appreciate the activity. 

There are also different degrees of resistance to certain activities, which require greater cultivation of equanimity in order to appreciate.  I must admit that I find it quite easy to enjoy weeding my garden, but challenging to enjoy cleaning the cat's litter box.  If I can increase the positivity and creativity of my mental state to make up for perceived "deficiencies" in my activities, then my overall experience will be one of appreciation.



Yes I agree.

I was thinking of these points as I was making my post, but I wanted to keep it concise.  Different activities do present varying 'degrees of difficulty' in terms of finding peace and joy in them.  But the difficulty is a function of our own habits and conditioning and is not an intrinsic property of the activity or the moment itself. I should have phrased it differently: The content of the moment does not matter if you can bring that same mental state to cleaning the litterbox as you can to eating a peach.  Naturally we resist some more than others, but IMO no moment is intrinsically unacceptable.  I'm sure some people are really good at it, but I won't make the mistake of exalting them with some special adjective.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8642668 -

I completely agree with your thesis.

Enlightenment is most likely a pipe dream.

Gurus are far from perfect.

Anybody who claims they are enlightened is probably selling something invisible.

However I disagree with one thing you said. I believe spirituality is real... just not tangible. I think humans are spiritual beings. We have the capacity for spiritual thought.


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Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Lion]
    #8642832 -

The noble truths teach that the cessation of dukkha is possible. Maybe that means that for a truly enlightened person, there is no more fear, pain, anger, disappointment, anxiety, loneliness, loss, grief, etc. But I've never met anyone like that. Many 'enlightened' masters I've met and heard about have anger, alcoholism, desire, pride, and other human qualities.

I dunno, maybe we're just talking semantics.

Here's a quick discussion of dukkha that's decent. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/dukkha.html. The best treatment I've encountered is a chapter in "Buddhism: Plain and Simple" by Steve Hagen.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Rose]
    #8642853 -

and I don't think that anyone else knows.

I don't know, so no one else knows...??

Surely there are those that know, and those that don't.


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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8642982 -

backfromthedead said:
and I don't think that anyone else knows.

I don't know, so no one else knows...??

Surely there are those that know, and those that don't.


I said "I don't think anyone else knows," if you look at the text you quoted, not "I KNOW that no one else knows."

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Rose]
    #8642999 -

Quote:
I believe spirituality is real... just not tangible. I think humans are spiritual beings. We have the capacity for spiritual thought.


This sounds nice, but what does it mean?  What are "spiritual" thoughts as compared to "non-spiritual" thoughts?  Why are they spiritual?  How can we reliably distinguish between spiritual and fantastical and practical and __________?  If it is intangible, how do we know that it is real?  Is it as real as any other intangible thought?

What is a "spiritual being," as compared to a "non-spiritual being" (if there is such a thing)?  How do you tell the difference between a spiritual and a non-spiritual being?  Does this distinction involve an immaterial/immortal soul, or does the "spiritual" part of us die when we die?

BTW, I never said that spirituality was not real.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: dblaney]
    #8643025 -

dblaney said:
The noble truths teach that the cessation of dukkha is possible. Maybe that means that for a truly enlightened person, there is no more fear, pain, anger, disappointment, anxiety, loneliness, loss, grief, etc.



Wouldn't the belief in a permanent cessation of dukkha be contrary to a basic tenet of Buddhism, which is that everything in life is impermanent?  How could one assert that a particular state of mind would be exempt from impermanence?  :confused:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643037 -

Veritas said:
Quote:
I believe spirituality is real... just not tangible. I think humans are spiritual beings. We have the capacity for spiritual thought.


This sounds nice, but what does it mean?  What are "spiritual" thoughts as compared to "non-spiritual" thoughts?  Why are they spiritual?  How can we reliably distinguish between spiritual and fantastical and practical and __________?  If it is intangible, how do we know that it is real?  Is it as real as any other intangible thought?

What is a "spiritual being," as compared to a "non-spiritual being" (if there is such a thing)?  How do you tell the difference between a spiritual and a non-spiritual being?  Does this distinction involve an immaterial/immortal soul, or does the "spiritual" part of us die when we die?

BTW, I never said that spirituality was not real.


Sounds like a lot of questions.  If you might have faith that others Know...  You might learn something.  As long as you laugh, deny, then ask for Proof from someone else...  I feel you should prove it to yourself.  Even if you have come to different conclusions in your life.  Is it not important to you to have experiences that inspire entire thought/belief systems...??  It should be in my mind.  If you pass them off as nothing more than hallucinations...  Your choice.  I Know that there are valuable messages contained within the spiritual/religious expereince.  I ask you give it perhaps a sincere consideration considering the questions you ask of others.


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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8643101 -

You're making assumptions about me again.  :nono:  Realize that I am discussing the manner in which we may examine the idea of spirituality, and not necessarily my subjective POV on whether some form of spirituality exists. 

Quote:
I Know that there are valuable messages contained within the spiritual/religious expereince.


Do you KNOW, or do you have faith?  I readily admit that I have issues with the idea of faith.  I am inclined towards examination, verification, analysis and testing.  Does it work?  Does it have congruence?  Does it make sense?  Faith seems too much like giving up one's right to question and doubt and test what IS vs. what is not.

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643106 -

Veritas said:
So it's more like lighting a match to briefly view your surroundings, vs. turning on an everlasting light bulb.  It seems to me that it is also about recognizing that we ALL have a pack of matches in our pocket, and that they are not the exclusive property of gurus, to be dispensed according to our progress towards a lofty goal.


not at all.
you must be thinking in terms of inspirational visions (they get pretty tired after a while).
the light is a lighter heart a lighter step and a light that shines on all things to help see impermanence and beauty in what already is.

the light work of meditation is in bending the wild reality (of the beast) into a tamer one by shaping attitude: attitude is like posture, mudra, practice, mantra, gesture, expression, movement, all those things bend reality in little ways.

bending reality is not seeing reality, but it is work we have to do, and a thing we are going to do anyway, cause we always have some attitude.

but we can shape attitude so that the intentional bending counters other (habitual) bending we have been doing,
and that flattenning out of our twisted lives also lets more light in.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643120 -

Quote:
Wouldn't the belief in a permanent cessation of dukkha be contrary to a basic tenet of Buddhism, which is that everything in life is impermanent?  How could one assert that a particular state of mind would be exempt from impermanence?  :confused:

I don't see a contradiction at all.  Everything is subject to impermanence - i.e., death - but that does not mean that one could not live continuously in states of consciousness which are not marked by suffering, dukkha, or whatever you wish to call it.

Take red hair.  Sure, everything is impermanent...ultimately your red hair will fall off your white skull and decay...but your hair is continuously red while your body is alive.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643123 -

Veritas said:
This sounds nice, but what does it mean?  What are "spiritual" thoughts as compared to "non-spiritual" thoughts?  Why are they spiritual?  How can we reliably distinguish between spiritual and fantastical and practical and __________?  If it is intangible, how do we know that it is real?  Is it as real as any other intangible thought?

What is a "spiritual being," as compared to a "non-spiritual being" (if there is such a thing)?  How do you tell the difference between a spiritual and a non-spiritual being?  Does this distinction involve an immaterial/immortal soul, or does the "spiritual" part of us die when we die?

BTW, I never said that spirituality was not real.


Yeah... you basically argued every point I hoped you would argue.

Thanks.

It makes my reply easier to compose. :wink:

I believe ALL THOUGHT is spiritual. By definition, thought is spiritual. Thoughts are intangible.

You were just saying yesterday how you can't prove thoughts exist... but you can prove that neurological activity exists.

I simply go one step further. Thoughts exist... but only in a spiritual form. Like I said, thoughts are intangible. Therefore thoughts are spiritual.

If you imagine something, like a jet-pack... it is not tangible. It only exists as a thought. It is an imaginary jet-pack.

If you CREATE a jet-pack based on what you imagined, you use intangible thoughts, to CREATE something tangible.

I suspect any human with a working brain is a spiritual being capable of spiritual thought.

Who doesn't qualify as a spiritual being? Uh... Living vegetable, Terry Shivo! There's an example of a non-spiritual human. May she rest in peace.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Veritas]
    #8643130 -

Veritas said:
dblaney said:
The noble truths teach that the cessation of dukkha is possible. Maybe that means that for a truly enlightened person, there is no more fear, pain, anger, disappointment, anxiety, loneliness, loss, grief, etc.



Wouldn't the belief in a permanent cessation of dukkha be contrary to a basic tenet of Buddhism, which is that everything in life is impermanent?  How could one assert that a particular state of mind would be exempt from impermanence?  :confused:


this is correct, however the 4 NT's help orient students to the mathematics of suffering, and the relief that can be had in the moment by taking refuge in meditation practice.

this mathematics of suffering is not like string theory or about the big bang, it is only about the humble moment to moment human condition - many dharma arguments lose perspective of this, and leave proponents and disputers confused as shit.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment? Not likely. [Re: Rose]
    #8643141 -

you are right
thought is spiritual.
some of it bends reality
some of it is reality.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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