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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Fat people. [Re: Asante]
    #7591493 -

Don't get defensive, please? This is why I dont like discussing anything with you.

The fact is, your above scenarios are all impossible if exercise is being taken into account.

Quote:
So the guy who needs 3.000 kcal to feel right now eats 2.000 kcal and after a long stall... he is gaining weight on 2.000 kcal, NO CHEATING INVOLVED.


If you are telling me that he is eating 2000 calories, and burning more than that, and he is gaining weight, you are a liar. It is impossible.

Quote:
So the diet goes down. The guy who needs 3.000 kcal to feel right now eats 1.500 kcal and loses some weight.. but then starts gaining on 1.500.


Again, obviously less than 1500 calorie are being burned through exercise, and there is more energy entering the system than exiting it.

Quote:
So the diet goes down again. The guy who needs 3.000 kcal to feel right now eats 1.000 kcal and loses some weight.. but then starts gaining on 1.000. What now? Umm by your logic..


Again, a logical fallacy. If 1000 calories are being consumed, and more than 1000 are being burned, there is no possible way to gain weight.

Tell me, in the hypothetical world that you have narrated for us, where is this magical weight coming from? If a person is burning 1500 calories, but consuming 1000, and they gain weight, how does this happen?

Is it magical mystery fat? Is it being obtained from the atmosphere through respiration?

What?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Fat people. [Re: Asante]
    #7591494 -

What about exercise, W_S?

My buddy weighs about three and a half bills, 30 minutes on the treadmill is about 600 calories for him. Takes me twice as long to burn that much.

EDIT: Lets not let tempers get in the way of a good argument, gentlemen.


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.

Edited by Kid_Orgo (11/03/07 03:30 PM)

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Re: Fat people. [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #7591538 -

Yeah everyone... chill... we're all friends here, right? :heart:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Fat people. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7591611 -

Quote:
Again, obviously less than 1500 calorie are being burned through exercise, and there is more energy entering the system than exiting it.




You can't exercise all your calories, your body needs a lot of calories for its functioning.

If you need 2.500 kcal and you do another 500 kcal worth of exercise, then the situation has changed and you need 3.000 kcal, because you have spent 500 extra calories on exercise.

Exercise enhances your quality of life and allows you to gain weight slower. Like dieting, in itself it is NO solution, it's just a clumsy patch for a problem thats hardwired into a person.

If an obese person burns more calories than he consumes, he's dead in a few years. Burning more calories than you consume is NOT a lifetime solution, it is only a way to shorten that lifetime.

If you burn more than you consume, your basic energy needs will go from 2.500 kcal to 800 kcal. If you exercise 1.000 kcal with that your needs will go from 3.500 kcal to 1.800 kcal. That extra doesn't make it more than the metabolic minimum though.

Burning more than you consume, or eating less than you burn, neither provides any solution whatsoever. Diet and exercise are no cures, they are crutches at best.

Burning more than you consume only works in the third world and in concentration camps where people have no choice. When they have a choice survival instinct will override any motivation they might have and they'll start eating more.


Quote:
Again, a logical fallacy. If 1000 calories are being consumed, and more than 1000 are being burned, there is no possible way to gain weight.




Fuel efficiency. You start needing less to do the same amount of work. In time that will slip under the amount you burn and you will gain weight.

Why will it do that? Because the nature of obese people is to gain weight, and their bodies will do everything to make that happen.
Why? Because it's a disease. Homeostasis is broken, diet exercise or not, and it will stay broken. To date there is no cure for obesity.

People have been saying "diet and exercise" over and over since the 1950s, and look how well it worked. Look at the results of all the diet doctors and nutritionalists and fitness trainers and what have you not: 95% of fat people who opt to lose weight, gain it back on or worse within 3-5 years.

If it doesn't heal 95% of your patients, you're selling snake oil.
"Diet & Exercise" is snake oil.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Fat people. [Re: Asante]
    #7591668 -

I disagree with almost everything you said.

It must be terrible to be stuck in the kind of mental rut that you are in. You are 100% sure that nothing will work for you, and so have just given up completely?

I dont see how people can claim that over-eating is not the main cause of weight loss. I dont think that its a coincidence that gastic bypass surgery gives LASTING results for the majority of people who have it.

You dont see 95% of the people who have gastric bypass back up to 500 lbs in a few years. Why? Because it is physically impossible for them to put as much food into themselves as they did before.

There has to be a correlation there...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Fat people. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7591735 -

Quote:
I disagree with almost everything you said.


That's because you misunderstand the issue. Something sensible looks like complete nonsense if you don't have the facts.


Quote:
I dont see how people can claim that over-eating is not the main cause of weight loss.


What causes this overeating? And what are the results of having been obese?


Quote:
You dont see 95% of the people who have gastric bypass back up to 500 lbs in a few years. Why? Because it is physically impossible for them to put as much food into themselves as they did before.

There has to be a correlation there...



The correlation is that they are being put in a position where there is no choice, like in the third world or a concentration camp, and this for the rest of their lives.

They can never eat a normal meal again. Thay cannot eat their pound of vegetables or an apple. They need nutritional supplements because if they ate the best food money can buy, they still could eat so little of it that they end up with multiple nutrient deficiencies.

Being obese by no means is as bad as a life lived with your stomach cut off and sewn shut. You will still crave those 3.000 calories.. and you will crave vegetables and fruits and normal sized meals and food that isn't dense in calories like lettuce and watermelon.

A gastric bypass should come with a magnum revolver to blow your brains out a couple months later when it dawns on you what you have done to yourself. For the rest of your life you now are forced by mutilation to adhere to a diet you COULDN'T POSSIBLY adhere to if you had a choice.

I'd rather die next year than have a gastric bypass and die in ten years thank you very much.

You're saying that the simplest of logics is right and that millions upon millions of people across five decades have all sucked at life because they all failed to understand it. It is the simplest thing you can think of and yet all those darn fatties all don't get it somehow.
Might it be that your logic is incorrect?


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Fat people. [Re: Asante]
    #7591743 -

Quote:
The correlation is that they are being put in a position where there is no choice, like in the third world or a concentration camp, and this for the rest of their lives.



So you admit that outside of all of the metabolism and energy needs and exercise and everything else that you've stated, its simply a matter of willpower?

Which is pretty much what I've said all along.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Fat people. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7591770 -

Quote:
So you admit that outside of all of the metabolism and energy needs and exercise and everything else that you've stated, its simply a matter of willpower?

Which is pretty much what I've said all along.



No, it's a matter of unreasonable demands. Willpower cannot do it, as evidenced by the statistic that 95% of obese people who lose weight gain it back on in 3-5 years. As evidenced by the fact that you can only come up with drastic bariatric surgery as a means to keep the weight off more often than not.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Fat people. [Re: Asante]
    #7591773 -

But if surgery which prevents people from eating too much, causes weight loss, doesn't that mean that the cause of weight gain is eating too much? It seems that regardless if you want to call it "drastic" or "inhumane", or whatever, the only thing it does is stops people from eating too much. It doesn't change your genes, or your mind, or anything.

I mean, I realize nobody wants to hear that they are at fault for anything. But if the shoe fits....


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Fat people. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7591822 -

Quote:
But if surgery which prevents people from eating too much, causes weight loss, doesn't that mean that the cause of weight gain is eating too much?



The number of calories you take in has an effect on your weight, yes.

But, I ask you again, what makes people eat too much? What makes people eat too much that is so persistent that people walk around hundreds of pounds overweight all their lives, that makes 95% of all diet/exercise plans fail and which only gives your bariatric surgery a 70% success rate? One out of three gets fatter and fatter still even with his stomach cut out. And those two out of three who lose weight.. are still overweight:

Quote:
Weight loss of 65 to 80% of excess body weight (the amount by which actual body weight exceeds actuarial ideal body weight) is typical of most large series of Gastric Bypass operations reported



That is not a matter of *willpower* it's a matter of *disease* just like what Diploid has been so very clear about.

"diet and exercise" only works for 1 in 20 people
"gastric bypass surgery" only works for 2 in 3 people, who lose part of but not all their overweight fat tissue.

It's not a matter of willpower. It's a matter of being tortured to death by your own body, just like other chronic diseases are.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Fat people. [Re: Asante]
    #7591878 -

I hate to hurt anybodys feelings, but for a smart guy you are in SERIOUS denial about your weight problem. This isn't the first time you'v tried to argue that it is impossible for you to lose weight through some crazy science.

If try hard enough to lose weight, you will. Eat less bad foods, and take a walk every day.
I'v suffered from obesity in the past, and you know how i fixed it?
I started walking to school instead of riding the bus, i ordered a single cheeseburger instead of a double, and while the results weren't imediate, or staggering, i did go from being a lard ass, to being able to take my shirt off in public without repulsing women.
I don't think this puts me in some magicly lucky 5%.


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Re: Fat people. [Re: Dreamer987]
    #7592103 -

Quote:
Dreamer987 said: I don't think this puts me in some magicly lucky 5%.


Lol me either!

If you want to play on the genetic aspect, saying that genes keep people at a certain weight because they just have to eat that much. Then why is it when anorexics start off at a normal weight, and start eating much less and exercise more they lose so much weight? After a while they don't even have the same hunger patterns as they did before because their body and mind adapts. Sure they might be starving themselves to death, but if an anorexic can starve themselves to death I'm pretty sure an obese person can go just a weee bit hungry to shed a few pounds. Shouldn't that gene be keeping them from being able to stop eating or losing weight? Even if that weight is normal that gene should not allow them to eat less right? I've yet to see an overweight person seriously start making smart changes in their diet and seriously exercising not lose weight. Anytime I see an overweight person saying that they just can't lose the weight they seem to have gave up a diet/exercise routine long ago (what a coincidence?) It may not be immediate, but it does work.

Hell I'm 6'1 and ~160 lbs. I've been around 180 lbs before and have noticed how my diet affects my weight, and even though I wasn't seriously overweight I did make changes in my diet and start eating a little less. After a short period of time I wasn't accustomed to eating so much and I didn't even think twice about it. I changed my food intake and my body adapted. I didn't have some crazy hunger pains that never went away because I started eating less. Sure maybe a few small ones right when I did because it was what I was used to, but they went away fast.

Also that adipose gene exists to keep animals lean in times of plenty. I seriously doubt that humans are going to have a gene that makes them a ridiculously unhealthy weight, without their eating and exercise patterns playing the biggest part of it.

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Re: Fat people. [Re: StreetFreak]
    #7592591 -

Wiccans argument is crazy, that would be like saying many people are genetically predisposed to abuse and become addicted to drugs and that a very high percentage of those who try recovery/abstinance relapse that you really shouldn't try to get clean.


--------------------
-QuantumMeltdown

Total abstinence is so excellent a thing that it cannot be carried to too great an extent. In my passion for it I even carry it so far as to totally abstain from total abstinence itself.
  -Mark Twain

"The time has come the walrus said, little oysters  hide their heads, my Twain of thought is loosely bound I guess its time to Mark this down, Be good and you will be lonesome
Be lonesome and you will be free
Live a lie and you will live to regret it
That's what livin' is to me
That's what livin' is to me"
Jimmy Buffett

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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