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Tangerines




Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 17,918
Loc: woodwork
Last seen: 4 years, 23 days
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Diploid]
#7591238 - 11/03/07 02:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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why is there even an argument? fat people are fat. skinny people are skinny. who cares it is the way shit is.
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Kid_Orgo



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 5,514
Loc: Hale-Bopp
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Diploid]
#7591284 - 11/03/07 02:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Evolution has pretty much ceased to affect us
This isn't true. Stoopid people still die faster than smart people.
Evolutionarily, the critical factor isn't whether or not you die, but how many offspring you produce. If anything, stupid people have more babies.
Quote:
Diploid said: Because in nature, there is not usually an overabundance of food. It's for exactly this reason that these neurons evolved, in humans and lower animals too.
Give a lower animal unlimited food and these hard-wired PHYSIOLOGICAL factors kick in. Have you never seen a fat cat? Duh.
I've seen some seriously obese cats, whose owners just fed them all the time. The physiological process is a "how" and not a "why" Cats, true, evolved the same as us. Unlike cats, however, we have the ability to think ahead. We create the food surplus, and we have the ability to exist without being destroyed by it.
-------------------- He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.
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Kid_Orgo



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 5,514
Loc: Hale-Bopp
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Quote:
Tangerines said: why is there even an argument? fat people are fat. skinny people are skinny. who cares it is the way shit is.
Because it's killing people and ruining their quality of life, and it doesn't have to.
-------------------- He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.
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pong
kretan




Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 4,311
Loc: west coast
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Kid_Orgo]
#7591318 - 11/03/07 02:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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how i look at it is people are killing themselves, as with smoking, and other hazardous activities such as shooting heroin or drinking 21 shots on your 21st even though you weigh 130 pounds

IT, whatever IT is, isnt killing anybody.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Kid_Orgo]
#7591322 - 11/03/07 02:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
it's killing people and ruining their quality of life, and it doesn't have to.
You're assuming it can be changed. That might be wrong. Over 95% of all people who lose a lot of weight, gain that weight and often more back on in 3-5 years. That's not people being silly. That's nature telling you something.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Kid_Orgo



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 5,514
Loc: Hale-Bopp
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Asante]
#7591336 - 11/03/07 02:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:
it's killing people and ruining their quality of life, and it doesn't have to.
You're assuming it can be changed. That might be wrong. Over 95% of all people who lose a lot of weight, gain that weight and often more back on in 3-5 years. That's not people being silly. That's nature telling you something.
My guess is that it's difficult to entirely change one's lifestyle.
-------------------- He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Kid_Orgo]
#7591342 - 11/03/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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If only 5% succeeds longterm, that means you have to be abnormal to succeed longterm.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Kid_Orgo



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 5,514
Loc: Hale-Bopp
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Asante]
#7591361 - 11/03/07 02:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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If you're referring to some physiological difference, it doesn't follow that a low rate of success implies one.
Perhaps that 5% are more motivated, or have made some kind of critical change.
-------------------- He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.
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Tangerines




Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 17,918
Loc: woodwork
Last seen: 4 years, 23 days
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Kid_Orgo]
#7591371 - 11/03/07 02:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kid_Orgo said:
Quote:
Tangerines said: why is there even an argument? fat people are fat. skinny people are skinny. who cares it is the way shit is.
Because it's killing people and ruining their quality of life, and it doesn't have to.
oh ok so your whining about your dislike about fat people is going to change that? no. You going out IRL and trying to raise awareness about fat people? no
yes it is unhealthy but it is a personal decision. you think fat people actually LIKE to be fat? or that they think it is actually beneficial to them? no, they know it is bad for you but they DONT CARE. and neither should you.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Kid_Orgo]
#7591377 - 11/03/07 02:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Unlike cats, however, we have the ability to think ahead.
Yeah man, that's why we can consciously diet, but people who have the fat neurons would have to ALWAYS diet, ALWAYS being hungry and miserable for their entire lives to stay at a healthy weight. This is because their brains up-regulate appetite and muscle efficiency. This means that I may burn 50 calories an hour reading online and a fat guy only burns 10.
So yes, it's possible for fat people to lose weight, but that comes at the cost of being miserably hungry all the time. It's got to be hell to have only two choices:
1. Hate yourself for being fat 2. Hate your life because you're always hungry
Let's have some compassion and stop blaming people for something that, from the available evidence, isn't as simple as just using will-power.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Kid_Orgo



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 5,514
Loc: Hale-Bopp
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Quote:
Tangerines said:
oh ok so your whining about your dislike about fat people is going to change that? no. You going out IRL and trying to raise awareness about fat people? no
yes it is unhealthy but it is a personal decision. you think fat people actually LIKE to be fat? or that they think it is actually beneficial to them? no, they know it is bad for you but they DONT CARE. and neither should you. 
Show me where I said that I dislike fat people, show me where I said that I thought that fat people liked to be fat, show me where I said that it was anything but the consequence of lifestyle and diet choices.
As a matter of fact, if you had read the posts I've made in this thread, you'd know I have been arguing the exact opposite, without a shred of self-contradiction.
I care about the obese people I know, I care because I don't want my buddies to die.
-------------------- He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.
Edited by Kid_Orgo (11/03/07 02:51 PM)
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Kid_Orgo



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 5,514
Loc: Hale-Bopp
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Diploid]
#7591397 - 11/03/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Unlike cats, however, we have the ability to think ahead.
Yeah man, that's why we can consciously diet, but people who have the fat neurons would have to ALWAYS diet, ALWAYS being hungry and miserable for their entire lives to stay at a healthy weight. This is because their brains up-regulate appetite and muscle efficiency. This means that I may burn 50 calories an hour reading online and a fat guy only burns 10.
So yes, it's possible for fat people to lose weight, but that comes at the cost of being miserably hungry all the time. It's got to be hell to have only two choices:
1. Hate yourself for being fat 2. Hate your life because you're always hungry
Let's have some compassion and stop blaming people for something that, from the available evidence, isn't as simple as just using will-power.
Touche, diploid.
I concede to you and Wiccan that willpower may not be enough.
I would like to note, however, that option one also entails a much shorter life, as well as other declines in life quality. You're way better off just suffering from hunger.
-------------------- He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Diploid]
#7591409 - 11/03/07 03:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's got to be hell to have only two choices:
1. Hate yourself for being fat 2. Hate your life because you're always hungry
Or, you can try what you can to lose weight and keep it off, accept that you won't succeed and probably will die young, and love yourself every step of the way
Theres no reason to hate yourself for being fat, like you say it's a chronic disease. Should you hate yourself for leprosy?
I diet, I work out, I'll stay obese for the rest of my life just like half my family that I can trace back to my great-grandparents.
It's important that you live a life worth living. That can be had without eyesight, hearing, functional limbs or when you're 100+lbs overweight like me. It's your job to make your life worth living with what you have, reincarnation will take care of the rest
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Diploid]
#7591412 - 11/03/07 03:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Unlike cats, however, we have the ability to think ahead.
Yeah man, that's why we can consciously diet, but people who have the fat neurons would have to ALWAYS diet, ALWAYS being hungry and miserable for their entire lives to stay at a healthy weight. This is because their brains up-regulate appetite and muscle efficiency. This means that I may burn 50 calories an hour reading online and a fat guy only burns 10.
So yes, it's possible for fat people to lose weight, but that comes at the cost of being miserably hungry all the time. It's got to be hell to have only two choices:
1. Hate yourself for being fat 2. Hate your life because you're always hungry
Let's have some compassion and stop blaming people for something that, from the available evidence, isn't as simple as just using will-power.
You're a scientist, Diploid, you should know better.
There is no magical "Fat Person Physics" at work here.
If a fat person, or any person, burns through exercise more calories than they put into their gaping maw, they will become thinner. This is not rocket science. Its simple fact.
Anyone who is obese, if they would eat right, and exercise would become thin.
The problem is, this is not easy. It is hard to exercise. Except for a few abnormal folks, people do not ENJOY doing it. Running 2K will never be as fun as eating a dozen ho-hos to most people. Exercise involves physical motion and sweat and effort. Eating does not.
But fat people are not breaking the laws of physics. There is not some marvelous source of zero-point energy built into their digestive systems. If they continue to gain weight, or even stay mass-neutral, then they are consuming AT LEAST as many calories as they are burning, and quite likely more.
Reverse this, and you will lose weight.
This is undeniable.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Hyper_Panda_GO
Team Action!


Registered: 05/28/06
Posts: 9,720
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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What about Samoa?
I wonder what their penises are like
-------------------- There is no valid reason you should be reading this
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Kid_Orgo]
#7591427 - 11/03/07 03:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I would like to note, however, that option one also entails a much shorter life, as well as other declines in life quality. You're way better off just suffering from hunger.
No 
You're by and by better off living a reasonably comfortable life and keel over at age 35 from massive stroke than to live 50 years on eating just 800 kcal a day.
Because that happens with a lifetime of dieting. You end up eating 800 kcal instead of 2.500, and then the 800 kcal will become fattening, and you can't take any less because that doesn't sustain life.
If you're obese, truly obese, dieting cannot save you. The more you diet, the more your body breaks.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Asante]
#7591438 - 11/03/07 03:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said:
Because that happens with a lifetime of dieting. You end up eating 800 kcal instead of 2.500, and then the 800 kcal will become fattening, and you can't take any less because that doesn't sustain life.
Again, this is just plain wrong. If you eat 800,000 calories, and you burn 850,000 calories, I guarantee you will not gain weight, except water weight.
It is impossible!
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Madtowntripper, you misunderstand the issue because you are ignorant of the facts.
Quote:
f a fat person, or any person, burns through exercise more calories than they put into their gaping maw, they will become thinner.
But when a fat person who needs 2500 kcal eats only 2000.. guess what happens.. his metabolism economizes so that he only needs 1900 kcal.
So the guy who needs 3.000 kcal to feel right now eats 2.000 kcal and after a long stall... he is gaining weight on 2.000 kcal, NO CHEATING INVOLVED.
So the diet goes down. The guy who needs 3.000 kcal to feel right now eats 1.500 kcal and loses some weight.. but then starts gaining on 1.500.
So the diet goes down again. The guy who needs 3.000 kcal to feel right now eats 1.000 kcal and loses some weight.. but then starts gaining on 1.000. What now? Umm by your logic..
The diet goes down again. The guy who needs 3.000 kcal to feel right now eats 800 kcal, the metabolic minimum, and loses some weight.. but then starts gaining on 800.
END OF THE LINE, and this WITHIN TWO YEARS OF DIETING.
The guy gives in to his urges!! He starts eating 3.000 kcal again, which as you know for him feels right. Starved and nutrient-deprived he sometimes eats more. But because he now doesnt need 2.500 kcal but only 800 kcal, HE GAINS WEIGHT THREE TIMES AS FAST AS HE DID BACK WHEN HE DIDN'T DIET. Net result: after two years of dieting and one year of not dieting, he gained as much weight as he wouldf have in four years of not dieting.
THAT madtowntripper is fat man's physics. Can you do the math?
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Fat people. [Re: Asante]
#7591473 - 11/03/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's your job to make your life worth living with what you have, reincarnation will take care of the rest
I don't buy that reincarnation thing, but if you're happy, I'm happy for you.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Running 2K will never be as fun as eating a dozen ho-hos to most people.
LOL
Ho-hos?? WTF is a ho-ho? A pair of prostitutes?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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