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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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On-Topic Fat Thread
#6504769 - 01/28/07 12:32 PM (17 years, 3 days ago) |
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I am still interested in discussing a topic that was in a thread that has been locked, so I am going to copy and paste a post I made in that thread and then reply to it with some more thoughts on the subject. Please do not make negative comments about fat people in this thread. That is a fair warning - don't make me whip out the ban stick.
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Wiccan_Seeker said: If over 9 out of 10 affected people cannot do it, in a population that spans tens of millions of people in all the countries of the world and a period of over 50 years, would you not say that unreasonable demands are being made.
Perhaps. I guess it depends on a case-by-case basis. I'm not certain that living healthy is an unreasonable demand - it is a lifestyle, and it requires considerable change in one's life. Perhaps that is an unreasonable demand in that most human beings develop such a routine that even minor changes in their life are difficult for them to maintain, myself included.
I mean common sense says get with the program, but the reality of the problem worldwide clearly demonstrates how common sense here simply does not work, for a zillion reasons.
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Perhaps the world doesn't work that way Fireworks. It's a blow to the face for all optimists and strivers. Up to a point we all got to deal with the cards that we get, and all of us know from experience that doing your very best simply won't be enough to get what you want.
It isn't like flapping one's arms in a vain attempt to fly. Perhaps I am viewing it too simply, and have not researched into it adequately enough, but I would think it all comes down to the amount of calories we intake, which is something that is within our control (we don't automatically eat, like our heart beats), and how much energy we expend through our daily activities.
Now, clearly some bodies have fucked up metabolisms. Sometimes it might be genetic or a physical problem, and sometimes it is simply due to one's activities and one's eating habits. If someone is barely eating and is exercising a lot, in a responsible way, and their health is not improving, then I'd start to look closer at the chemical processes and all of that... I understand there are medications to take to assist metabolism, but I haven't truly looked into it much.
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Most people find it cruel to say to a person who has lost his eyesight that he can see if only he had enough willpower.
I'm not convinced of the similarity.
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These people generally find no such objection to say the same to someone with severe obesity, even though it is proven that over 9 out of 10 of them cannot escape that fate no matter what they try.
Nine out of ten severely obese individuals have all made dramatic lifestyle changes in an attempt to become healthy? For how long? What kind of study are you referring to?
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Here's some other math: When you are really hungry your body is blackmailing you into taking in say 600 kcal. If you try to cheat it with a 100 kcal apple your body will send deprivation and frustration signals until the 600 calories are taken in. So, to comply with your body you eat "one meal" to get those 600 kcal.
"Until the calories are taken in". I think this is what I was referring to, about willpower. Individuals who are not obese face this same thing when they fast (I have some great threads on fasting in P&S we could link to for more information on that). One would think that fasting would be more difficult for those who are not obese, as they do not have such a margin of energy stored as fat.
I would never suggest starving oneself, but I am given to understand that fruit juice fasts are highly effective.
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The obese guy's body will thus blackmail his brain in every possible way to take "two meals" because that is "enough".
Precisely. Ride through it - willpower. I'll see if I can find some threads on fasting. The body's negative experiences it will inflict upon oneself to get you to needlessly consume more do not last for long, and this is what these fasters say. Past the third day, eating does not enter one's thoughts at all. 
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This isn't a matter of his "willpower", this is entirely a medical matter as his metabolism is broken. It is a disease. You can tell it is a disease because their bodies swell by dozens of pounds over time.
His metabolism might not be working effectively, but this is due to habit over time. One has to force it to correct itself. It is a matter of willpower in most cases, I have to assume.
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Common sense sometime is flawed, and one such flaw is to expect the willpower of a mere mortal to overcome a physical disease with factors beyond his control.
A mere mortal? We are capable as long as we realize it and exert ourselves. What factors are beyond control?
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No matter if it were brought on by bad habits or genetics - the result is a broken metabolism that needs to be healed, if diet and exercise are to have any effect other than temporary.
How does one heal oneself if one continues the patterns of behavior that are responsible in the first place? The body might desire more food, and that seems to me to be the cornerstone of the problem. Answer: willpower.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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All right, now I simply wanted to clarify that I was not proposing that fasting is a solution to obesity. I was simply using it as an example of willpower that relates to the topic at hand, since the body would be compelling one to consume more food in both situations.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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roby000
me

Registered: 02/28/05
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Moderator edit: This post does not address the topic at hand as I have outlined it.
Edited by fireworks_god (01/28/07 12:44 PM)
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Innominate


Registered: 06/12/05
Posts: 2,136
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Re: On-Topic Fat Thread [Re: roby000]
#6504798 - 01/28/07 12:41 PM (17 years, 3 days ago) |
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There are many things people can do to lose weight, but most obese/overwieght people just are not willing to change their lifestyles. If someone is seriously motivated and has the willpower, there's no excuse. There are harder things in life to do than to quit eating.
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



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Willpower works for alot of things.
Trying to not eat is even worse than trying to quit cigarettes or heroin.
Dieting accomplishes nothing without exercise, BTW
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers


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I guess I would lump obesity in with other addictions I dont understand, like smoking/drinking.
I mean...I guess I just dont have an addictive personality. I dont understand how if someone doesnt want to do something, they cant just stop.
My Mom has been trying to quit smoking since I was a kid, and every time I'm at home I grill her about it. I mean, the solution seems fool-proof to me. Dont buy them, take them out of the pack, light them, inhale them, etc. There are 100 actions along the way you could take that would stop you from smoking. It boggles my mind that she cannot see this. The only conclusion I can draw is that she *SAYS* she wants to stop, but in reality does not.
To me, fat people are the same. Just STOP eating so much shit. Dont eat Ho-Hos, dont eat Grilled Stuffed Burritos, and dont drink fucking root beer w/ ice cream all day. There is no magical mystery here. If you CONSUME less calories than you BURN, you will lose weight. 100% GUARANTEED.
If you are unwilling to take even the basic steps to maintain a healthy lifestyle, dont come crying to me when the airline wont let you take up seats A-C because you cant fit in one. Does this make sense?
Moderator edit: Removed comment that is inappropriate for this discussion.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
Edited by fireworks_god (01/28/07 12:45 PM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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I agree; the smoking addiction is one that really irks me. People start talking about how they want to quit, and then they pull out a cigarette and light it. One could argue that there is a chemical dependancy; however, one's choices got one into that situation, and it will only be solved by one's conscious choices. You literally have to stop picking one up. Willpower.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



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Re: On-Topic Fat Thread [Re: Innominate]
#6504820 - 01/28/07 12:47 PM (17 years, 3 days ago) |
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You could say the same thing about poverty.
It's poor people's own fault that they're poor.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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Kid_Orgo


Registered: 09/24/03
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There is an incredible burden placed on the health care system from obesity.
This comes from the prevalence of fast food and sedentary lifestyles.
I don't buy genetics as an excuse, no way has the genetic makeup of America changed alone in the last hundred years.
The friend that I have that is wicked obese has been raised with a very poor diet, and, as such, has bland-ass food preferences. I will eat anything, exotic, international, anything. I am skinny. He only eats porkchops and shit, he's fat.
I think it's useless to really get on anybody about their weight, weight is punishment itself. How many obese old people have you ever seen?
If my buddy wants to fix his weight problem, it's just like me fixing my girl problem, or me fixing my drinking problem. Has to come from within.
-------------------- He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.
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memes
Blessed


Registered: 01/11/05
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Loc: In a Tree
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said: You could say the same thing about poverty.
It's poor people's own fault that they're poor.
not really, but to a degree.
in america - maybe thats the way it is, but in other less developed countries, there literally are not jobs for people to do.
but here in america - yes, theres always a job to be done, it all depends on whether or not poor people wanna get out there and find it.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Perhaps it is, in some situations.
Being poor is often more situational; for example, being born into it. Being obese is primarily the result of one's eating habits, which might be conditioned into one, conscious or subconsicous, yet that is precisely the point - it is an exercise in willpower to overcome that. It is not a simple task, often, yet it is as easy as one makes it for oneself.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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AroundtheSon
Learning to See


Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4,427
Loc: Midwest.
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B) I agree completely and 100% percent Fireworks_God. I see myself getting fatter after gourging and binge drinking. I can control it. I could control. I choose not too.
Moderator edit: I have removed a comment that does not pertain to the topic at hand. Please stay completely on-topic.
Edited by fireworks_god (01/28/07 12:54 PM)
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Innominate


Registered: 06/12/05
Posts: 2,136
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Re: On-Topic Fat Thread [Re: Kid_Orgo]
#6504836 - 01/28/07 12:53 PM (17 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kid_Orgo said: How many obese old people have you ever seen?
Plenty. If fat people live to be old, and they still haven't changed their habits, they usually end up sucking up tax payers money and claiming disability.
Getting paid for being overindulgent.. I've seen it all.
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YuckMan
Student


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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: I guess I would lump obesity in with other addictions I dont understand, like smoking/drinking.
I used to feel the same way, it's partly the reason why i started smoking. I just couldn't understand how addiction worked... I understand fully now. You're better off not understanding it.
As for obesity, I battle it myself. I'm about 230lbs and 6 feet tall, i have a verry active job and only eat one small meal a day. usually just a sandwich. My metabolisim is just extremely slow. It's kinda nice that i don't have to spend much money on food, but i would like to be a little lighter. I've tried the "many small meals" a day to speed up my metabolisim, using about 5 triscuit crackers every 3-4 hours with little to no effect. I've also tried metabolisim drugs, none of wich worked.
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Psilocybeingzz


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I don't like the idea that people just become obese and they can't control it.
There is a difference between being a little chubby and being 350lbs. The later is from poor diet and lack of exercise in most cases. There aren't allot of people around that are 7 feet tall. (so don't bother pointing that out people)
I can't stand the idea its often socially(in many circles*) acceptable to tell skinny people that they need to eat a sandwich, your a twig etc, but when one shows concern for someones health, and the fact someone is over weight, even in a polite way, they are deemed cruel.
Its important to note that many people grow up with bad eating habits and keep them for life. In fact most experts on obesity would agree with the idea that the most important time to make the right choices is when you are a child. Too bad children often make poor choices, and its too bad their parents do to 
Many kids these days are raised on Coca Cola, and fast food.  (and all sorts of other junk) Whats even more pathetic is when food is used as a controlling mechanism, parents feed their children certain unhealthy foods to get the behavior they want from their children. Which is really a bad tactic, because it backfires eventually, and then parents end up giving their child anything they want just to get the behavior they are after.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: On-Topic Fat Thread [Re: YuckMan]
#6504842 - 01/28/07 12:56 PM (17 years, 3 days ago) |
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Please elaborate on what you refer to as a "very active job". What do you do?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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AroundtheSon
Learning to See


Registered: 01/11/07
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I think that we have neglected Stress as a factor to obesity.
People that live stressful lives, and are mentally stressed, tend to store fat more readily. Additionally, individuals who live stressful lives tend to eat poor diets based on so called "comfort foods".
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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That is a great point, and it probably plays a signfigant role in the epidemic.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Psilocybeingzz


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Re: On-Topic Fat Thread [Re: memes]
#6504865 - 01/28/07 01:03 PM (17 years, 3 days ago) |
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Everyone likes to reduce poverty to simple discussions but its not a simple topic. Chaos theory affects everything, even the economy. Plenty of hard working people find themselves in tough situations all the time.
However living frugally is a great way to stay a little more insulated from the ups and downs of the economy. And thats one of the many reasons I don't drive.
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YuckMan
Student


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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Please elaborate on what you refer to as a "very active job". What do you do?
I make kitchen cabinets, and i'm constantly lifting large 4x8 foot sheets of plywood and and lage stacks of wood usually between 25-50lbs. It's verry fast paced, almost to the point of running around.
If i were to eat the "recommended" 3 meals a day, i would easily be 300+ lbs.
Edited by YuckMan (01/28/07 01:06 PM)
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