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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: FollowTheMusic]
    #7226398 -

FollowTheMusic said:
Contemplate the following view:

1) You have been repeatedly attacked by a militarily superior force. The sons and daughters of your people have been slaughtered, often not even in honorable battle but by fire from the sky.


Then why are Sunni and Shia muslims in Iraq killing each other daily by suicide bombings and by cutting off each other's heads?

Quote:
2) Western society is a plague, a blight consuming the earth. It brings hollow materialism, capitalist slavery, and cultural annihilation. Yes, freedom of speech is wonderful, but look what we have chosen to utter: McDonalds, strip mines and bombs. YOUR WAY OF LIFE IS BEING DESTROYED.


Of the 19 hijackers that perpetrated the 9/11 killings, 15 were from Saudi Arabia, one of the most strict islamic societies on the planet. Where is the decadent western threat in Saudi Arabia?

Quote:
3) The invading force is not just the Western governments, but the people. Because they continue their behavior of consumption and destruction, then justify this through ignorance of their government's activity. They let the government/corporate conglomerates do the dirty work that enables their avarice; they are thus complicit.


Or maybe the problem lies within Islam itself. Islamic societies that have the heaviest western influence, like for example Turkey, produce relatively few terrorists compared to Saudi Arabia.

Quote:
I am NOT saying I endorse this view or the actions of extremists. I am NOT saying that one side or the other has some moral superiority. I AM saying, it would be more enlightening to spend a day understanding this world view than to spend a day poking holes in it.


Agreed, it's vital for us to understand how they think. Because soon Al-Qaida will have nukes.

I can understand why americans need to take a close and critical look at their needlessly aggressive foreign policy. But militant Islam is a very real threat not only to America, but also to small peaceful countries in Europe, Africa, and Asia, that have never invaded any muslim country.

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Rhizoid]
    #7226442 -

Remember that America developed the first nukes and is the ONLY country to have ever used atomic weapons and would not likely hesitate to use them again.

Does that not create an atmosfear of phere?

Karma anyone?


--------------------

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7226468 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
I AM saying, it would be more enlightening to spend a day understanding this world view than to spend a day poking holes in it.



Amen.

The day of 9/11 I was as saddened and as horrified as most Americans, but I seemed to be alone in my sentiment of asking, "What would drive these men to do such a desperate act?" instead of "Why are these men so evil?"

Understanding will solve more problems than any bloodletting ever will.


Thats right! In a way I could completely understand to some degree why they would attack America, given the things that it has done to various Islamic countires in the name of progress and'democracy'. In fact, what has been done, in terms of terrorism so far is nothing in comparison to what the U.S have done to Muslim countries in general.


--------------------

Edited by Sinbad (07/26/07 12:58 PM)

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Sinbad]
    #7227178 -

I think a lot of you are trying to blame religion while ignoring history and politics.
Granted, many of the political groups that parade as religious groups are the thesis on why religion and politics should be seperated..... but it seems that some of you are saying that without religion, there would be no terrorist acts.


I think it is very easy to sit back as an American and act like muslims are committing acts unprovoked, or at the very least, claiming that they are over-reacting.
Just try putting yourself in their shoes for a moment. Your country has been broken, your family and life has been destroyed due to being caught in the middle of a political struggle.... then comes along a "saviour" who gives you money, shelter, care, goals...etc.

You wills tart to identify and have affinity for these groups, because they are the only ones who truly seem to give a shit about you.
America forced every single terrorist to choose who they thought was the good guy, and who was the bad guy... and we made that decision very easy for them.
One one side we had people who were using the country's resources and people for political gain, inciting wars, dropping bombs, installing dictators, deposing presidents.... and on the other side you have a caring group of religious people who have social cohesion, pray together, laugh together and band together to stop the erosion of their culture and way of life.

you tell me which side you would pick if you were put in that situation. what you call suicide bombing through brainwashing, I call the highest form of patriotism. While I dont agree with the philosophy behind suicide bombing, I do respect someone feeling so strongly about being picked on by a bully that they would willingly give their life to deal the slightest blow to their opponents.

You want to call our troops hero's and label them as being "brave" clad in armor, inside tanks, surrounded by peers armed with automatic rifles watching their back... and then turn around and label the terrorists as cowards... a people who have tattered clothing and a homemade bomb in hand running face first towards the worlds largest military.... why? because they feel so strongly about it.
As opposed to the majority of people in Iraq are kids with GED's who had nothing better to do with their lives.

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7227214 -

Religion is a refuge when you are up against a wall.

And

Religion is a handy tool of National conquest.

IMO there will continue to be war as long as we play monopoly with the earth (separate tribes and resources and competition for limited space and resources) and as long as fear rules the heart of man.

As far as nukes go it might be better if most countries had them. Countries with nukes are invested in limited engagement warfare. They know the loss would be too devastating to recover from and the game would be over. Look at how often they have been used since we dropped the big one. No one wants to risk it, it seems.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Icelander]
    #7227596 -

Icelander said:
Religion is a refuge when you are up against a wall.

And

Religion is a handy tool of National conquest.

IMO there will continue to be war as long as we play monopoly with the earth (separate tribes and resources and competition for limited space and resources) and as long as fear rules the heart of man.

As far as nukes go it might be better if most countries had them. Countries with nukes are invested in limited engagement warfare. They know the loss would be too devastating to recover from and the game would be over. Look at how often they have been used since we dropped the big one. No one wants to risk it, it seems.


yeah, but judging how unstable a lot of Islamic extremists are, wouldn't you assume they would use one without thinking twice?


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Syle]
    #7227605 -





maybe you need to make a sequel to this.... about the islamofascists.

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7229222 -

YawningAnus said:
One one side we had people who were using the country's resources and people for political gain, inciting wars, dropping bombs, installing dictators, deposing presidents.... and on the other side you have a caring group of religious people who have social cohesion, pray together, laugh together and band together to stop the erosion of their culture and way of life.


... the same caring group that crashes airplanes into buildings together, blows up other muslims together, executes rape victims together, etc. Many countries around the world have been hurt by U.S. involvement. Of all these countries, why is it only people from the muslim ones that retaliate by killing indiscriminately? And not only in retaliation against the U.S. but also against random people in Indonesia, the Philippines, India, Thailand, Nigeria, Russia, Sudan, Algeria, etc. I know that violence and conflicts can happen anywhere, and for all sorts of reasons. But the presence of Islam seems to increase the probability of conflict. Why?

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Rhizoid]
    #7229460 -

so what was the oklahoma city bombing? discriminate killing?

what was the Rwanda Genocide? an unprovoked civil war?

Kamikaze pilots, the korean war, the vietnam war, the IRA, Flight 455,Nicaragua, Flight 182, Chechnya.... there are plenty of groups that have carried out terrorist acts, from all over the globe... and they werent muslims.

When it is the world against you, any offensive move you make is a terrorist act. I guess you can still call "I want to kill anyone not in my group" indiscriminate killing, just like you can call dead iraqi civilians "innocent bystanders" and "collateral damage".

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7229729 -

YawningAnus said:
... Kamikaze pilots, the korean war, the vietnam war, the IRA, Flight 455,Nicaragua, Flight 182, Chechnya.... there are plenty of groups that have carried out terrorist acts, from all over the globe... and they werent muslims.


I know, I know, but I was talking about current terrorist activities. Apart from the war in Chechnya which is still going on, all the examples you mention are essentially past history now. And the current (second) war in Chechnya was started in 1999 from an escalation of a conflict with islamic extremists in Dagestan.

So my point still holds. The only current terrorist activities that are non-muslim related that I hear about are a few communist guerillas in South America and Asia, the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, plus the last death throes of the Euskadi Ta Askatasuna in Spain. And none of these have anything to do with retaliation for wrongdoings by the wicked western world.

I would definitely agree that it's important to study the principles behind all types of ideologically motivated terrorism, whether the perpetrators are communists, irish, sikhs, racists, fascists, survivalists, nationalists, patriots, or whatever. I mean really analyze the underlying ideological framework and figure out how and why it affects attitudes and behaviour. And that means looking closely at how islamic ideology influences islamic terrorism.

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Rhizoid]
    #7230084 -

I would definitely agree that it's important to study the principles behind all types of ideologically motivated terrorism,

Check your mirror. All your study materials are right inside you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (07/27/07 10:58 AM)

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Rhizoid]
    #7230114 -

If I truly wanted to understand such a phenomenon I would become friends with people who support that mindset, and hang out with them engaging them in nonjudgmental ways. In the end they are just trying to be free, and are using the only tools they are aware of....their cultural programming.

Quote:
I discovered that most things you consider evil or wicked are simply lonely, and lacking in the social niceties.

--Big Fish (a movie)


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Icelander]
    #7230381 -

Icelander said:
Check your mirror. All your study materials are right inside you.


My mirror only shows me primitive stuff like fear, anger, hate, jealousy, and spite. Not ideologically motivated evil, probably because I was a loner in my younger years so I totally missed the "fanatic idealist" step in my spiritual development.

How do I get my mirror to show the flaws in various ideologies without studying them first? Or are you saying that ideology is without consequence?

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Rhizoid]
    #7230397 -

Or are you saying that ideology is without consequence?

That's what I think.

My mirror only shows me primitive stuff like fear, anger, hate, jealousy, and spite. Not ideologically motivated evil,

This is all of it IMO. Ideologically motivated "evil" is just an extension of inner states, and cannot be remedied from other than that place.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7230451 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
If I truly wanted to understand such a phenomenon I would become friends with people who support that mindset, and hang out with them engaging them in nonjudgmental ways. In the end they are just trying to be free, and are using the only tools they are aware of....their cultural programming.


:thumbup:

Chances are low though that I would travel to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia just in order to hang out with people who would want to kill me at the first opportunity...

I remember a time about 15-20 years ago, when neo-nazis were the biggest focus of media hysteria in my country. One day I tried to understand the nazi way of thinking by smoking a huge bowl of pure sativa bud, and then I sat down and read some articles written by both old (WWII) and new nazis. It was pretty mindblowing, because the marijuana managed to suspend my disbelief enough for me to immerse myself into the world of nazi ideology. After about half an hour later the effect faded, and I became both exhilarated due to having finally understood them, and at the same time scared shitless seeing how convincing the nazi wordview must be for people who can't switch between different viewpoints.

I have done the same thing trying to understand islamic ideology. Same result: once you begin to understand the cultural programming, you get the point how extremely vital this understanding is.

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Rhizoid]
    #7230461 -

Rhizoid said:
Icelander said:
Check your mirror. All your study materials are right inside you.


My mirror only shows me primitive stuff like fear, anger, hate, jealousy, and spite. Not ideologically motivated evil, probably because I was a loner in my younger years so I totally missed the "fanatic idealist" step in my spiritual development.



A mirror is good, but we need 'tools' to work with what we see in it.


--------------------

Edited by Sinbad (07/27/07 04:33 PM)

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Icelander]
    #7230508 -

Icelander said:
Or are you saying that ideology is without consequence?

That's what I think.


Well, I don't think so. Most persistent or semi-persistent ideologies get their power from memes, and memes can have side-effects (i.e. consequences) that are very different from the main intent of the original inventors of the ideology.

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Rhizoid]
    #7230853 -

You are entitled.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: Icelander]
    #7394927 -

I come from a muslim family and was raised in a muslim country and have visited a lot of muslim countries. Had been a muslim for the better part of my life.

When it comes to religion, I do not have a specific answer. I am not a follower of any religion but I do not completely deny the existance of a higher power. After about 10+ years of researching on many different religions in this world, I have given up. I try to be a good human with good morals and always try my best to contribute positive things to the society. If the higher power exists and chooses to punish me for not being able to solve the puzzle of finding out the right religion then I guess, that is my fate.

As for the extremist nature of Islam, I am sure you have all heard this a million times before but you have to understand the fact that the majority of muslim countries are ruled by harsh dictators and the majority of the population is poor and uneducated and life has very little for them to offer. Having not much to live for in life, they resort to religion and make it their only reason for living.

Islam, even though has a shorter history than the other major religions in my opinion has become much more complex in nature for a lot of different reasons which are beyond the scope of this thread. The religion itself is divided into atleast 50 sects each of whom has a different belief system. The main book of Islam which is followed by pretty much all the different sects by itself is not as harsh as you might expect.

From my extensive research, the first few hundred years when Islam was introduced, the people followed only the main book and things were a lot more peaceful and this was the prime time for Islam. Over time, people added new concepts into the religion such as Hadith and Fatwa. Hadith is said to be the compilation of the sayings of the prophet. Fatwa is when the so-called scholars get together and come up with ideas and make them a part of the religion. There is a lot of controversy regarding Hadith but the majority of the sects consider it to be as important as the main book itself. Furthermore, Shias follow a different hadith compilation from Sunnis as do many other sects within Islam.

Hadith in my opinion seems to be one of the main source for some of the wrong concepts given that it does not stem from one source but from a huge number of people who overtime compiled it.

Being extremly poor and uneducated is bad enough by itself but when the country which is already suffering is faced with war and constant bombardment over trivial political reasons, the people who otherwise would have been peaceful are pushed beyond their threshold and give up whatever hope they have left and resort to unnecessary violence.

I would say that there is not just one particular reason for the extremism. I would also like to say that it would be unwise to think that all muslims are not trust worthy. There happen to be a billion of them and even 1% of a billion who are flawed can change the world perception. As to why the majority do not protest the extremism, they have a lot of other things that they would rather do first such as being able to feed themselves. Furthermore, they do not have as strong of a say in the media as in the western society either so even if they do protest, its likely that you will not hear about it.

I hope my post helps change any wrong/bad perception about the 1/6th of the world population among fellow trippers :smile:

Life is short and holding grudges is wasteful :smile:

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Re: The philosophy behind extremist Islam [Re: azseattle]
    #7395212 -

Great post. :thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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