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OfflineNomad
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3408528 - 11/25/04 05:20 PM (17 years, 7 days ago)

Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion, but I do not trust opinion - even my own. I have my own experience, which I compare and contrast with those whose experiences have been remembered through the ages. If ever I become wise in my own eyes, I will require a slap upside my head to adjust my attitude.

And you sir, if you believe that you can evaluate entire religious traditions from your armchair, and then misconstrue the physical and the metaphysical, epistemology and gnosis, then Life is going to deal you a startling blow. When it comes, think of it as a Compassionate blow from 'The Cosmic Zen Master' for falling asleep during a seshin of Zazen.


:confused:

Huh? Did I miss something? What have I done?

Was it the reference to Buddhaghosa? If so, I'm certainly sorry - I should perhaps have tried to shroud it in a different kind of language. Still, of one thing I am certain: I will prefer the direct, first-hand psychedelic experience over any scriptures.

If I have seen things with my own eyes, while a holy scripture claims the opposite, I will burn the scripture - in each and every case.

If that makes me "evaluating entire religious traditions from my armchair", then so be it. I can live with that.

And the reality of rivers, trees, and rocks is ultimate enough for me. I will stick to my understanding that the eightfold path is supposed to lead up to the triple knowledge - not to some mystification of epistomological concerns.  :rolleyes:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Nomad]
    #3409376 - 11/25/04 09:14 PM (17 years, 7 days ago)

"I will prefer the direct, first-hand psychedelic experience over any scriptures"

While the entheogenic experience has a spiritual dimension, so to do all things in life...walking in the forest...dreaming...reading a book...hunting or fishing...driving to work are examples. Entheogens can open one to new ideas as can they make one prey to falsehood and delusion. One's perception of the spirit should be based on much more than the ingestion of indole ring compounds and phenylethylamines. One's daily experience is direct communication with the spirit if one will but look. The spiritual signifigance of entheogens should never be given MORE weight than any other experience in life.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3410321 - 11/26/04 12:33 AM (17 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I just have to say, Markos, its been great, reading and feeling your perspective. :wink:

I'm amazed and reassured that someone such as yourself has evolved to this point in life where your mind is extremely encompassing and complexly structured, and not only this, but that it seems to be that the individual facets of that mind are networked properly. At the same time, it appears that your mind, while being an immense, elaborate system, is free of clutter and needless, emotional residue - its structure is kept at a bare minimum to perform its required tasks, and it does not interfere or obstruct your direct perception of reality.

Not only all of this, but perhaps the most important aspect of what I perceive of you is that while your mind is quite advanced and formed, the formless beyond your mind, your pure state of being, is almost infinitely more deep and conscious. I feel that you are experiencing reality and pure awareness beyond the constrains of the mind. :mushroom2:

I am not saying these things to cater to your ego, or mine, for that matter. I find these aspects that I have observed of you very interesting as they mirror myself to similar degrees, and considering your extensive worldly knowledge, your much longer time on this planet, and your apparent deep state of being to be a glimpse of where I may someday (soon :wink:) be, if I continue on this path moment by moment.

I surmise that perhaps there are times when you are almost completely free of the operation of your mind, and other times when your being might get lost in the complex workings of your mind, but the majority of the time, keeping a most important balance between the two, depending on the situation present in your life at the time and what it requires from you. It seems as though you have followed the upward spiral and have indeed reached a higher place. :thumbup:

Some might get lost in the structure and elaborations of your expressions here, but it seems that you hold it as a mere convention, a tool, and a powerful tool at that. The meaning and the being run deep and are formless and most ripe for experience.  :laugh:

Sorry, I just felt the need to express some appreciation for you and your being here, you've definitely helped me evolve and grow, perhaps this is partially why the similarities that I note developed in the first place.  :smirk:





Yup. :thumbup:



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3410746 - 11/26/04 02:29 AM (17 years, 6 days ago)

While the entheogenic experience has a spiritual dimension, so to do all things in life...walking in the forest...dreaming...reading a book...hunting or fishing...driving to work are examples.

I understand that you are coming from a shamanic perspective. I am on a different path; I don't say that you are wrong or something, but ultimately one has to accept that there may be different approaches to spirituality. I am a buddhist within a certain tradition; as such, my spirituality is based on certain primary texts which I rely on as the source of my understanding, through "rational faith" - as if, when one finds that a certain map is correct on known territory, one will use it when approaching the unknown, too. For me, in the context of my path, walking in the forest, hunting or fishing, and driving to work do not have a spiritual dimension - while entheogens, dreaming, and reading a book may have one.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Nomad]
    #3411663 - 11/26/04 11:42 AM (17 years, 6 days ago)

How is it that your own singular experience outweighs a consensus of a tradition that you supposedly hold dear?????????? I read the Bible for a long time, and because I could not see things from a higher perspective, I was in disagreement with certain doctrines. My response was not to "burn" the book, but to develop to the degree where I could understand and conform to the more profound perspective.

I also "prefer" MY own experience, psychedelically enhanced or otherwise because it's MINE, MINE, MINE,. I expecct that you get the point. If not, there are the ol' Beatle lyrics: "...all through the day...I-Me-Mine...I-Me-Mine...I-Me-Mine..." EGO, just EGO. One has to test one's own experience against the Wisdom of the ages. If one thinks that one's own individual experience is more insightful than a truly revered tradition, then one is wise in one's own eyes, and one is deluded by Ego. The scriptures serve as a higher frame of reference for individual experiences. NOW...interpretation of the scriptures based upon one's compelling experiences is another matter. For example, I can clearly see a whole Gnostic interpretation of St. Paul's words, pointed out BTW by Princeton scholar Elaine Pagels, whereas the whole world sees only a surface [my 'opinion'] meaning to Paul's words. My job (and yours too, I might add) is to be humble enough to listen and understand what the Elders were teaching, and to conform yourself and see your experiences through a higher perspective than one's own little Ego.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3411875 - 11/26/04 12:43 PM (17 years, 6 days ago)

I don't know quite what to say, so I'll deal with your kind adulation by working backwards with my reply and stating 'Nice puppy!" :smile: Coincidentally, my Lady and I just listened to a dog expert on the Diane Rheme [sp?] show on NPR. I wish you both a long and happy relationship.

As to the first part of your post, I believe that I have managed to keep my mind to a large extent "at a bare minimum to perform its required tasks." It is quite perceptive of you to know that. My Lady oftentimes reminds me how fortunate I am to live with so much free mental space. One major contributing factor is the nature of my job which has no paperwork, is from 8:20-3:40 PM, Monday-Friday, 212 days of the year. A second major component, which is too great a sacrifice for others, is that I have no children. This is not a sacrifice for me because I have never had even a fleeting desire for children, but the benefit is lots of free time for a contemplative, action-free lifestyle.

As to your kind projection of spiritual advancement: firstly, the same metaphysical depth that my being emerges from is the same metaphysical depth that your being emerges from - ONE and the same. If the 'weave' of my life is looser because of the 'space' that my lifestyle permits, you can more easily see the radiance of that metaphysical substratum come through with my words. It is not so much a matter of personal attainment as it is a lifestyle "free of clutter and emotional residue" as you so eloquently put it. I occurs to me that the swords belonging to wrathful Tibetan deities like Mahakala and Manjushri, are symbols for the continual cutting free of attachments. We have to do this because just like computer spyware, those virtual barnacles that keep secretly attaching to our PCs, the impressions of life - the sexy, the dangerous, the envious, etc. constantly register in us if only subliminally, weighing us down and slowing our journey.

As a professional counselor, I believe in what is called 'counselor transparency,' the opposite of an analyst who remains opaque and impenetrable to the analysand, so that my counselees can see that I have no hidden agendas, no dark motives moving about in my see-through being. This also is what comes through no doubt in my posts, and as I was blown away by similar perceptions of psychologist Richard Alpert (AKA Ram Dass) when he used to take callers on W-BAI radio in the 70's, I wanted to do as he did back then. He was one of my teachers. So was Stephen Gaskin of The Farm who wrote 'Monday Night Class' and 'Caravan.' These guys manifested ruthlessly, or should I say, Wrathfullly Truthful perspectives on selfhood.

So, thank you for your appreciation but allow me to leave you with this bit of Biblical Wisdom attributed to Jesus: "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God..."  -Matthew 19-17

With peace and affection,
-MtG


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3411991 - 11/26/04 01:24 PM (17 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
As to your kind projection of spiritual advancement: firstly, the same metaphysical depth that my being emerges from is the same metaphysical depth that your being emerges from - ONE and the same.




Indeed, and to put what you said of this following what I quoted in my own words, which I probably should have done in the first reply, it shines through because you are more conscious and aware of that state of being. Your mind is not seperating you from it. :wink:

I like that you used the word "transparent", I used that word to describe a better functioning mind in a post at the revolution forum not even a couple of hours ago, and it is not a word I have used in that context before... :shocked:

Anyways, I basically made that post because I've been having a lot of quick, new insights as a result of a long period of sobriety and constant seeking, and the state of mind and being that I've been slowly piecing together and striving for, with an idea of what I was developing but not as a whole, has really started to come to be, and reading your posts here, it really helped confirm and assure.

And, as to your closing comment, indeed. :laugh: Do not attempt to grasp onto this experience or identify it as "your" experience, or characterize it into a sense of self. Just let it be, let it flow through you, experience without attachment... etc. etc. etc...  :grin: :heart:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Nomad]
    #3412267 - 11/26/04 02:32 PM (17 years, 6 days ago)

You do not recognize that the process of living is a spiritual experience...only certain arcane texts or drug experiences have meaning for you? That sounds very limited and blind.


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (11/26/04 06:09 PM)


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OfflineNomad
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3412659 - 11/26/04 04:34 PM (17 years, 6 days ago)

You do not recognize that the process of living is a spiritual experience

Life can be an awesome spiritual experience; I just do not think it is necessarily that way. I try to make living into a spiritual experience - I do not think it inherently is.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3412709 - 11/26/04 04:56 PM (17 years, 6 days ago)

How is it that your own singular experience outweighs a consensus of a tradition that you supposedly hold dear??????????

Because Theravada is just one of several early buddhist schools; the commentaries were not held in common, but the Pali apparently was. Theravada did not survive because it was the school which best represented the Buddha's teaching. The other schools were wiped out through a historical accident.


"Be ye, therefore, islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the truth as your island, the truth as your refuge, seeking no other refuge. "

- Mahaparinibbana Sutta.


And thanks for the psychological evaluation, but you do not know a damn thing about me.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Nomad]
    #3420599 - 11/28/04 09:46 PM (17 years, 4 days ago)

I beg to differ inasmuch as the Theravadin school is the ONLY remaining school of the Hinayana (Small Vehicle), whereas the Mahayana (Great Vehicle) and Vajrayana (Thunderbolt/Diamond Vehicle_ continue to this day. The Buddhism of Thailand and Cambodia, monastic for the most part, are Theravadin schools.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineNomad
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3421915 - 11/29/04 03:02 AM (17 years, 3 days ago)

This not being my mother tongue, I sometimes have a hard time with grammatics. So this should read: "The reason why Theravada did survive was not because it was the school which best represented the Buddha's teachings. The other schools were wiped out through a historical accident." You do not differ at all.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3422044 - 11/29/04 03:47 AM (17 years, 3 days ago)

i suppose my downfall as a psychology and philosophy double major was the psychedelic experience.  my care and appreciation for the subjects became entirely extricated from the academic fields.  i found myself again and again charming my professors into letting me do what i wanted - e.g. i'd take a class on Taoism and wind up writing my final paper on Timothy Leary, instead of valuing and trying to understand the course material they presented - fortunately, my main philosophy prof. was a student of Alan Watts at Berkeley :smile:  nonetheless, unless you wind up in an extremely progressive and alternative school suited to your needs, i think the further you go with the psychedelics the more detached you will become from your intended fields of study. 
i mean, you really have to understand your own mind pretty well before you jump into a path like this.  what are your motives for doing this?  how much do you truly like -philosophy- as it is in academics - compared to your self-image as a philosopher.  you realize you have to throw all YOUR opinions, thoughts, likes and dislikes out the window, and develop a lust for history, culture, and the complex systems of thought that arose from them ---- that is, you want to objectively understand them, not judge them.
and can you still remain a youthful, social, sexual, hip person? can you integrate this rigid philosophy world of academia which you must strive for excellence to get into a grad program and have a real chance as a professor, while the psychedelic hepcat your youthful soul says you're born to be is just coming to life?

not i - i'm 24 years old now, it's been 2 years since i finished my degrees in 2002, and i'm finally back in school doing computer engineering so i can some day afford a house in downtown seattle. 
psychedelics showed me that regardless of whatever you do it's utterly essential that you are your own psychologist and philosopher, that you understand your own mind, your own existance. these are suprisingly only fully realized through comparatively much simpler practices than i ever allowed myself the time for as a philosophy student.

however, this is me, and i know nothing about you.  and nobody can rob you of your big decision.  i'm sure it would daunt me, excite me, and i'd inevitably go against the odds when i faced that situation.  you know, it really is an exciting time to be alive.  some major breakthroughs are headed your way no matter what direction you take.  keep us posted.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisiblerogue_pixie
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: ferago2]
    #3422159 - 11/29/04 05:11 AM (17 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

ferago2 said:
I'm studying philosophy in school myself. I'm in my 3rd semester of college, and so far I've taken an intro level class in which we read a whole variety of different philosophical writings, from political philosophy to metaphysics (do we have free will?) and epistimology (what are the limits of human knowledge?). I've also taken what's called "modern philosophy," which is really the progression of philosophical thought from Descartes (whose skeptical method would be useful on this board :p) to Kant, who has a whole lot to say about what we are able to know, and what we can never know. The third class I'm taking currently. It's philosophy of song, and we're focusing on what makes songs appealing, including analyzing the melody, rhythms, structure, lyrics and so on, as well as reading Shopenhauer, Plato, and some contemporary theorists.

Academic philosophy really breaks down into 3 areas: Political philosophy (self explanitory) value theory or aesthetics (what makes things beautiful, important, etc... like my song class) and metaphysics/epistimology (how the world is, and what constitutes knowledge). The later is probably going to be my area of focus, and is the most closely linked with what goes on on this board, although most of the posters here could learn a whole lot from any philosophy class's discussion of logic, and what constitutes valid and sound arguements.

I dunno what jobs you can get with a philosophy degree besides graduate school or law school, so I'm either going to double major in journalism, or triple major in that and another subject.

Hope this helps.




At last a sensible answer! :smile: Thank you, that has helped me a lot.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP



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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #3422751 - 11/29/04 01:19 PM (17 years, 3 days ago)

i'm sorry, my last post was directed to you, but apparently i replied to the last post, which at the time was Markos' post - now that I know what you want, I can tell you more specifics.
The intent from my academic program was that you'd do 3 different things: apply for grad school in philosophy to one day be a professor of philosophy, or use it as a springboard into seminary school or law school.
philosophy in my school was the easiest degree you could get you could obtain, there were no math or science or language requirements, though it's most likely your general education requirements for arts and sciences will require you to fulfill some of these. the philosophy degree itself required you merely to take 40hrs of philosophy, including Symbolic Logic and 3 classes over the 400 level. Symbolic Logic is a course that involves systematically testing whether or not philisophical arguments are valid and sound by basically reducing them to math. In fact, there was a low level course in philosophy for non majors called "The Principles of Reasoning" that was a less intensive Symbolic Logic course to fulfill a math General Education Requirement. Another way in my school you could avoid taking a course through the math department was to take a psychology statistics class. Anyways, our philosophy department lumped in all the comparative religions, so you could take Old Testatment, New Testament, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism as courses. A perk of taking the Christianity courses is that you will most likely get an incredible, rather expensive, annotated Oxford edition of the Old & New Testament. a philosophy course in Christianity will fall closely under the lines of history, you will learn about the history and culture of the mediterranean 2,000 years ago and will most likely compare the Gospels through different means, like their different themes, the different political agendas of their authors, ect. However, there was also a phiosophy of religion course that showed different philosophers across time's "proofs" (very similar to geometry proofs) of God's existance.
There will be a political philosophy, and you may be excited to jump to into the works of Karl Marx and Nietzsche. There will be a modern philosophy course and you'll learn about Descartes "evil deceivers" and you will slave over Spinoza's long lists of axioms and definitions.

That's a philosophy major in a nut shell, man.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Nomad]
    #3422958 - 11/29/04 02:25 PM (17 years, 3 days ago)

"While the entheogenic experience has a spiritual dimension, so to do all things in life...walking in the forest...dreaming...reading a book...hunting or fishing...driving to work are examples. "

hes absolutely right you know. And being a buddhist is not at all in contradiction with what hes saying, far from it. If you are forced to cut your life into the spiritual and the nonspiritual, the sacred and the mundane, your missing the point.

I used to make the same mistake, thinking if i just meditated more, just had a few more enlightening drug trips, or could just lucid dream more, i would be 'spiritual'

now i realize the single most important, difficult, and rewarding aspect of spirituality is being in touch with the tao, the essence of every experience you have. Awareness is the key to spiritual existance.

While on the bus, on the way to school, in class, whatever, being aware, being thankfull , being in love with the world, and trying to be in the moment are the most important parts of a spiritual life.

Meditation and such are good to , but whats the point in meditating or having drug trips if you dont carry over that wisdom into your regular life?

its as hollow and meaningless as the sinner who goes to church on sunday and then says fuck it all week, and does as he wants.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3426687 - 11/30/04 05:44 AM (17 years, 2 days ago)

While on the bus, on the way to school, in class, whatever, being aware, being thankfull , being in love with the world, and trying to be in the moment are the most important parts of a spiritual life.

Meditation and such are good to , but whats the point in meditating or having drug trips if you dont carry over that wisdom into your regular life?


I see what you mean, and I sort of agree. But I think that what is spiritual is the actual being in touch with the Tao, not the riding a bus thing in itself. Whatever you do, wherever you are, if you are in touch with the Tao, it is spiritual. If not, then not.

Hey, and whats up with all that talking about awareness? Gotta start a new thread.


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Invisiblerogue_pixie
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Re: A philosophy degree? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #3426799 - 11/30/04 07:05 AM (17 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
i'm sorry, my last post was directed to you, but apparently i replied to the last post, which at the time was Markos' post - now that I know what you want, I can tell you more specifics.
The intent from my academic program was that you'd do 3 different things: apply for grad school in philosophy to one day be a professor of philosophy, or use it as a springboard into seminary school or law school.
philosophy in my school was the easiest degree you could get you could obtain, there were no math or science or language requirements, though it's most likely your general education requirements for arts and sciences will require you to fulfill some of these. the philosophy degree itself required you merely to take 40hrs of philosophy, including Symbolic Logic and 3 classes over the 400 level. Symbolic Logic is a course that involves systematically testing whether or not philisophical arguments are valid and sound by basically reducing them to math. In fact, there was a low level course in philosophy for non majors called "The Principles of Reasoning" that was a less intensive Symbolic Logic course to fulfill a math General Education Requirement. Another way in my school you could avoid taking a course through the math department was to take a psychology statistics class. Anyways, our philosophy department lumped in all the comparative religions, so you could take Old Testatment, New Testament, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism as courses. A perk of taking the Christianity courses is that you will most likely get an incredible, rather expensive, annotated Oxford edition of the Old & New Testament. a philosophy course in Christianity will fall closely under the lines of history, you will learn about the history and culture of the mediterranean 2,000 years ago and will most likely compare the Gospels through different means, like their different themes, the different political agendas of their authors, ect. However, there was also a phiosophy of religion course that showed different philosophers across time's "proofs" (very similar to geometry proofs) of God's existance.
There will be a political philosophy, and you may be excited to jump to into the works of Karl Marx and Nietzsche. There will be a modern philosophy course and you'll learn about Descartes "evil deceivers" and you will slave over Spinoza's long lists of axioms and definitions.

That's a philosophy major in a nut shell, man.




Thank you for that valuable insight. I'm actually based in the UK so I expect things will be done slightly differently. The study of Taoism, which I recently stumbled accross fascinates me, as does Buddhism, another recent encounter. I'm a "political kind of person" so the philosophy of politics is definitely something that intrigues me, not so much the socialist side but the anarchist thought from the likes of Peter Kropkutin and Emma Goldman, which I don't think you cover in sociology or politics and probably not Philosophy but anyway maybe I could choose to specialise in that area at some point? I gathered your previous post was aimed at me, it was appreciated but I was looking more for a guide to the course specifics and what we learn about as opposed to what it will allow me to achieve in later life - which I have no interest in at the moment, I have no career plan (but I know it certainly won't be law) I just want to do something that interests me and this sounds like the right course from peoples responses. I couldn't help but feel your response was a tad pessimistic but I understand that it isn't the most practical degree in the world. Having said that, isn't every degree valid in society, no matter what it is in nowadays?


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP



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