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how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... *DELETED*
    #6763083 -

Post deleted by wishcouldeletethis

Reason for deletion: k


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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #6763102 -

There is a study that shows that the human brain is "hard-wired" to believe in a higher being. I'll try and find it.


--------------------
"LSD is really baby blood"

danlennon3 said:
whoever isn't permanently tripping just isn't paying attention

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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: aaei67]
    #6763279 -

Where is the evidence against a creator?

MM


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Want to be of the shaman mind? Carlos Castaneda is the godfather of the New Age Movement which is based off the peyote & shroom eating natives in Mexico.

Read his library of books to expand your mind.

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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... *DELETED* [Re: mikemushroom]
    #6763521 -

Post deleted by wishcouldeletethis

Reason for deletion: k


Edited by wishcouldeletethis (04/09/07 12:22 AM)

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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #6763538 -

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showthreaded.php/Cat/0/Number/6739646/page/0/vc/1


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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #6763591 -

puritybinge said:
i guess it was more aimed towards the bible lovers, but the fact people complain about why is there evil, why is there pain, why do prayers go unanswered, apparently this creator doesnt give a shit about anyone so why would they hold faith in such a thing? and if this creator doesnt give a shit, then why would it bother. people love abuse i guess as for me i won't belittle myself and worship anything but the beauty of the day and love of the moment.


If you want to know how and why Christians believe what they do, get a Bible, an intro to Christian doctrine book, and a book about worldviews. Really, I think this would be the best way to understand things.

MM


--------------------
Want to be of the shaman mind? Carlos Castaneda is the godfather of the New Age Movement which is based off the peyote & shroom eating natives in Mexico.

Read his library of books to expand your mind.

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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... *DELETED* [Re: mikemushroom]
    #6763709 -

Post deleted by wishcouldeletethis

Reason for deletion: k


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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #6764809 -

puritybinge said:
how many christians actually read the bible and interpret it themselves instead of going to church and having someone read it to them aloud... besides i have out of respect for a really old book, read the bible cover to cover, i dont know many people that can say that...


I totally agree with what you are saying. The Bible is understandable to everyone as long a they know how to read things in context. Study is more than mere reading of the Bible. Resource are of great value a long as you don't use one source. This would leave you at the author's mercy.

Churches are good and theys serve a purpose. But many traditional churches have some crazy stuff in their bylaws that makes it impossible to explore differences in ideas. Here are examples that I experienced as a kid, followed by my smart ass remarks:

1.KJV only- really? Which of the 20+ verions of the KJ is correct?
2.Pre tribulation (rapture) is the only theory of the end time that can be taught-Thats great. I especially like the ideas that the rapture is not even in the Bible, the idea is only 200 years old at best, and it would require a 3rd comming of the Christ.
3.Men cannot have earrings or long hair- I guess different cultures are not as worthy as this churches'.
4.Women cannot wear jeans- but a short skirt is ok?
5.No stringed instruments-Isn't a piano a stringed instrument?

Now how can ideas be exchanged when everything is being dictated for you? The scary thing is that this church has a K-12 grade school.

Reading the Bible from cover to cover is great. Not many people have done this. Try reading it in chronological order. This helps with the OT tremendously.

I almost got in a fight in jail (don't ask) with a guy who said that we should not even look at anything that pertained to different religions than Christianity. I asked him if this same logic would be good if he grew up Muslim in Iran. He proceeded to threaten me. Nice. What a dumbass.

MM


--------------------
Want to be of the shaman mind? Carlos Castaneda is the godfather of the New Age Movement which is based off the peyote & shroom eating natives in Mexico.

Read his library of books to expand your mind.

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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: mikemushroom]
    #6765259 -

mikemushroom said:
Where is the evidence against a creator?

MM


93
Within the question of who created the creator? Creation is a lie, there is only discovery. The sense of a Demiurge is only held by those with an infantile fear of death. When this fear is abolished, certainty replaces doubt and the question is slain by the answer. All gods burn up when they get too close to the star.
93 93/93


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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: lavod]
    #6765617 -

A frog in a well can try to tell a turtle from the ocean how great and big and wonderful the well is, but the frog has never been outside the well how could he possibly know what is good and wrong...:peace::yinyang::peace:

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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #6768338 -

93
Success. Provided that the frog is alive to tell the turtle(allusion to the hexagram?) of the well, it is obvious that the well contained all things necessary for the sustenance of the frog. When the frog emerges from the well to tell the turtle of it's greatness, the frog views the turtle's world as unnecessary. The frog attained enlightenment through isolation, unhindered by the illusions imposed by the turtle's world, provided by the well.
Turtle says unto froggie:"You speak of the greatness of this well, why then did you leave, and why do you suppose it better than my world?" And the frog saith to turtle: "I left as a step towards universal attainment. It would be quite selfish of me to live in the well for the rest of my days. I have departed to tell you of my success as a ways to help you better yourself. I know that my world is better, otherwise you would not be asking me these questions." Of course, how could this communication ever take place unless the frog was in contact with external forces able to provide the language of the turtle, or through knowledge of hir own communication structure, was able to correlate it to that of the frogs'? We are dealing with no ordinary frog!
But indeed, the frog overlooked the fact that the well is not necessary for the turtle, or even hirself. In fact, the frog turned out to be jealous of the turtle after all! 0=2
93 93/93


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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: lavod]
    #6768419 -

HAhahaha


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #6768818 -

> Given no evidence to the existence

I used to think like you. I didn't understand how brilliant scientists, such as Einstein, could believe that we are anything more than a big wet chemical reaction. Eventually, I found my answer... the evidence is there... I asked, and I got my proof, but unfortunately, it isn't something tangible that I can share with others. Such is the nature of faith...


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: Seuss]
    #6769409 -

Seuss said:
> Given no evidence to the existence

I used to think like you. I didn't understand how brilliant scientists, such as Einstein, could believe that we are anything more than a big wet chemical reaction. Eventually, I found my answer... the evidence is there... I asked, and I got my proof, but unfortunately, it isn't something tangible that I can share with others. Such is the nature of faith...


I totally agree Seuss. And as for being scared of death- I am offended...slightly (This is not at you, Seuss). If you really had any understanding of the Christian faith, you would know that we embrace death, knowing that when our time on earth is finished we will move on to true enlightenment and perfection. Read the Bible- For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain (Phillipians 1:21). Go ahead and read the rest of chapter 1 as well. I can't think of one religion that fears death. The act of dying sure, but death itself, no.

As far as the creator of God- this works, in a sense, with scientology (i.e. who created the aliens?), but not with any major religion. This is basic stuff. Just do a little research. It is impossible for mortal beings to understand the infinite nature of God.

It takes energy for two atoms to split, so who created the first two atoms? Where did they come from? Who created the energy? There MUST be a source.

I believe it takes just a much faith to believe we evolved from a soup as it does to believe in a creator.

If you find a pocket watch in the middle of the jungle, only one thing can be assumed- a watch maker.

Faith is what religions are about. Faith in God, the Christian God, has never been negative for me. Faith never hurt me any.

Suppose the atheist are right. What did I lose? Nothing. But, if the Bible is correct, what do nonbelievers stand to lose? Everything.

MM


--------------------
Want to be of the shaman mind? Carlos Castaneda is the godfather of the New Age Movement which is based off the peyote & shroom eating natives in Mexico.

Read his library of books to expand your mind.

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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: mikemushroom]
    #6770170 -

ahahh thats tight lol thats completely true i guess my analogy didnt express exactly what i meant...:peace:

How can a frog tell a turtle what everything is when all he knows is the well? Its impossible for the frog to know anything outside its box it has been inside... Even if the frog gained enlightenment (lol) he would realize that he doesnt know everything...:yinyang:

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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: mikemushroom]
    #6770196 -

93
Numbers related to paragraph in question.
1. Religions do'nt fear death, people do.  I was not talking solely about physical death when I said that those who believe in a creator are afraid of death although it certainly applies.  What most consider to be enlightenment, in it's many forms-posh posh, is attained by elimination(death, if you will) of the restrictions preventing one from "reaching" "it".  How can one attain this "enlightenment" that you speak of, if one feels that all of what they have done is being judged by a superior force?  Does this not propagate fear?  And supposing that this enlightenment is attained, be it everlasting?  If so, would not it become stagnation?  How can there be balance if the "enlightened individual" were to suppose that that which is enlightenment is better than that which is not enlightenment?  Is not your God found in all?  Your devil becomes an illusion, does it not?  Of course, the usual Christian concept of what happens after physical death is bullshit.  Ask Choronzon.
"To live is Christ, and to die is gain"(Philippians 1,21) Very good, this can be something to go on!  Kevin likes to say that in death is life concealed, in life is death triumphant.
2.Yes, basic stuff for basic brains.  Supposing that there is creation, would not God become finite?
3.Once again, creation is a lie.  Manifestation occurs when the conditions for it to occur are proper.  Yes, the definition of the word creation can be twisted to say the same thing, but the fact that manifestation does'nt just happen is what I am trying to get at, without the grand debacle of communication.  I see that you say that I am proving nothing.  Indeed, I am trying to prove NOTHING, as that is your answer.  NOTHINGn to be precise.  I ca'nt really do this subject proper justice.  I can only recommend that you read Magick without tears  ch. 5- The universe: the 0=2 equation(Aleister Crowley).  Do your best to also look into what is Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur.
5.No, conditions proper for the manifestation of the watch.  Nature can be quite complex.  Also, the perception of the watch finder that it is actually a watch.  A delusion can be quite powerful.  Perhaps it is best to not assume at all, lest thou mingle with the dogs of reason;).
6. "Faith never hurt me any".  That sucks!  Sometimes a stiff kick in the pants is needed to really put things in perspective!  Die in a fire is an encouragement, not an insult!
7.C'mon, this is pure foolishness.  The atheist would say the same thing!  Kevin is only a atheist in the eyes of people who define God.  But he knows where love must go, and it's not unto definitions.
Do not take this in offense in any way.  I am only encouraging us to die.
93 93/93


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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: lavod]
    #6770991 -

Okay, lavod-I numbered things to simplify. WTF does 93 mean? Just curious.

1.Under Christian beliefs "enlightenment/perfection" is reached through Jesus (I know you know). It is a free gift. You can't earn it. If you could than Jesus' life was pointless. Heaven is obtainable by the ABC factor (cheezy, I know):
A: Accept that you are a sinner.
B: Believe in the birth, life, death, and ressurection of Jesus.
C: Confess with your mouth.

Judgement is for all, but true judgement is based upon the acceptance of Christ. It is nothing to fear if you know where you stand. A side note- People can't be scared into heaven; shame on those that try to do this.

Yes, Heaven is eternal. Would it become stagnant? I don't believe so. I think it will be different for everybody. I believe it is Eden with no chance of an Adam and Eve drama. Forget the streets of gold and pearly gates. I think that is just to symbolically show the granduer of Heaven. It is hard to comprehend a place with 0 faults, but I don't think it would get old.

I don't believe God is in "all". He is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnipotent, but that does not mean that God backed bin Laden or any oppressive dictator. The OT shows this over and over.

Is Satan an illusion? No. Is the general paradigm of hell? Certainly. The Bible speaks of eternal death not eternal burning. The KJV is a good example of how a group of catholics can take many concepts (Sheol, Hades, Lake of Fire, Gehenna) and mash them all together to make up some BS to scare people. There is some truth in the catholic dogma of "hell", but I would pay no attention to it if I was doing a study of the subject. NIV and NASB sorts out whats what.

Usual concepts of the afterlife? Well...I am not sure what you mean. The concepts formed during the early 1900s? If so that is definitely flawed. I could get into that, but I think this is not the appropriate thread. I will say that traditional churches hold to these old ideas, but contemporary churches do not- the ones with educated pastors that are not scared to shift concepts from myth.

2. The Bible tells us that there were worlds before us and more to come. That's all it says, so I can't elaborate. As far as a finite God, here is a couple of thoughts. Everything has to begin somewhere, so where did God's great great God (if you follow here) come from? A catalyst must be infinite with this trane of thought. There are plenty of verses I could regurgitate, but I find the previous statement fascinating (wish I could take credit).

3. Creation is not a lie. It must be real or we wouldn't be here. This is applicable to evolution or any religous ideas. The term creation is subjective though.

4.Where is 4? lol

5.Nature can be complex. Scientist that believe in evolution would tell you that the odds of everything evolving from a sludge is almost equivalent to that of setting off an explosion in a junkyard and it forming a Boeing 747. You don't have to look any futher than a human eye to find the complexities.

6.If one has faith, no fear of hell is needed or fear of anything else. People do find faith when they are looking for it. I agree with Seuss.

7. I don't think it is foolishness, just an honest observation. Of cource atheist can say the same thing. I am repeating (adlib) Hume and Russel afterall.

lol. I am not taking offense. I missunderstood you earlier. Very intelligent conversation. Don't take me for some Louis the 14th, converting people with the sword, type of guy. I love honest conversation. I appreciate everyones belief system that does not include hate cloaked as mercy.

MM


--------------------
Want to be of the shaman mind? Carlos Castaneda is the godfather of the New Age Movement which is based off the peyote & shroom eating natives in Mexico.

Read his library of books to expand your mind.

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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: mikemushroom]
    #6773329 -

93
93 is the numerical value of the words Thelema and Agape(will and love in Greek respectively). 93(wilt)= "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" Al I,40. 93 93/93(love love/will)= "Love is the law, love under will" Al I,57. This is the traditional Thelemic greeting and answer. Kevin originally thought this was superfluous, but has recently figured it to be beneficial, thought not necessary.
Kevin, the person who posts under Lavod, recognizes the Law of Thelema as essential to the progress of humanity and tries as best he can to operate in accordance with the Law. He recognizes that a new æon is indeed upon us and certain changes in the consensus reality need to be made, through the individual, not the mass, to advance as a race.
Indeed, one can ask if Kevin is a hypocrite for following a system if he speaks against other systems. He quite possibly is. However, there are no words in the ordeals. Even within Liber Al, the entire core of the universes and the key to liberation is found within only a few passages, the rest are merely hints to prevent folly. Liber Al is not foolproof against interpretation which can lead one astray, just like any other holy book. It is of no odds how one has reached the highest heights, what matters is that one is there and what one is going to do to get everyone else there. No! Everyone else does'nt belong there, only him(or her). Everyone has their own place. Any worthwhile help would be to help eliminate the restrictions preventing one from reaching this place, which, I might add, is not stationary, but ever changing and never known.

I(yes, I) do appreciate this topic and conversation. It has been a pleasure. However, if this thread is to advance, new blood is necessary. By writing down our conceptions and interpretation of experience, we are not only potentially providing a new outlook for others, we are shedding light within ourselves by placing emphasis upon things that cannot be realized unless a conscious effort is made to recognize them(writing). One must not get carried away though. The kick in the pants I mentioned earlier is not really obtainable by writing. Go through the ordeals with courage. When they come, you will not remember how you got there, you are simply there. Be thou Hapocrates as he stands upon the two crocs. I encourage any reader of this thread to spend a little time to write something beneficial if thou wilt. To prove? Nay. To conquer. The reader must know that silence is key, for when there is motion(writing), there is dis-ease. So the stoppage shall be the seal of death. And with this, Kevin shall leave this thread. But Lavod forever remain.
93 93/93


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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: lavod]
    #6774280 -

The title God has been so altered over the course of time that we have forgotten its true definition. God is not one person but a term used to describe all humanity working together as one. It was our combined consciousnesses that forged this universe, for if there were no life to experience its beauty then what is its purpose? We created our physical selves, this earth, sun and solar system. How else could we get so lucky by existing upon the only inhabitable planet we know of in the universe?

It is hard to remember creating all this, for we have become a believer of our own matrix. As humanity grows, so does its understanding of everything; we are still subconsciously creating what we want to know and experience. It is us who rule the land and turn the planets, create the stars and expand the universe.

And when it comes down to it; who judges us, but other people.

Edited by mikebart101 (04/11/07 09:26 AM)

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Re: how and why would anyone want to believe in a god, a creator, a judge of character and life..... [Re: wishcouldeletethis]
    #6775261 -

Thats simple.

At some point in evolution our brains became clever enough for us to comprehend this question;

How and why are we here?

Then somebody formulated an answer albeit a flawed answer. They said another being like us, must of created us. An ultimate being.

The obvious flaw however, is that who would of created the ultimate being and so on...

But as far as I can see. Gods are simply a product of the realisation of self awareness.

Now, a large part of the human population has realised this. But it still thrives. Why? Because it makes us feel secure. If we don't understand how something works then we seek to find out how it does and we are not satisfied until we have an answer.

People feel more secure accpeting a man-made answer to our biggest questions than to leave them open. Unfortunately this has resulting in the forming of religions, cults etc

The people who realise people want an answer will often abuse this to create a position of power and wealth within the natural human heirarchy (scientology for example).

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General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
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