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Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question
    #6232436 -

This is mostly a vent, but please chime in and let me know what you think.

In philosophical debate, it is a common technique to pose carefully designed questions to the person arguing an opposing point of view in an effort to whittle away irrelevancies in the crucible of logic, and arrive (or try to arrive) at the Truth.

Clearly, it can be the case that a YES|NO question cannot be answered with a simple Yes or No. But in that case, the correct response is to explain to your debate opponent that the question is insufficiently-narrow for a simple Yes or No response. Replying with a stubborn 'maybe' pretty much leads to the end of the debate because if the answers are always 'maybe', then there can be no progress.

This is a loss for both participants because neither side can learn anything new, which presumably is the reason for the debate. It is for me, at least.

If instead of answering with 'maybe' you explain to your opponent EXACTLY what part of the question is too broad or vague for a simple Yes or No reply and then give him an opportunity to refine the question to your satisfaction, the debate can continue and the logic tree explored.

Here's an example:

Philosopher #1: Yes or no, is it ethical to steal?

Philosopher #2: That depends. You'll need to precisely define the word 'theft', and specify what is being stolen and the conditions under which the theft occurs. For example, if you mean stealing a stereo from a department store, then No it's not ethical, but if you mean stealing food because you're starving, Yes it is.

Philosopher #1: OK, the refined question is "Yes or no, defining 'theft' as the taking of something without permission, is it ethical to steal money from a friend's wallet when he left it unattended momentarily and you know he is rich and will not miss it?"

You see that, with the help of his opponent, the questioner has refined the question to a point where it CAN be answered with a simple, unqualified Yes or No. If it's still not narrow enough, the process repeats until the pair arrive at a satisfactory question.

This is philosophy.

I'm often frustrated by the members of this forum who refuse to follow the rules of logic in debate; rules that form the core of philosophy. They seem more interested in being the winner than in approaching the Truth. Rather than help their opponent form satisfactory questions so they can together approach some understanding of the Truth, they debate in an adversarial, ego-driven fashion, and no knowledge is gained by either side.

Philosophical debate shouldn't be about winning, it should be about learning... for both sides.  :heart:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Diploid]
    #6232890 -

I agree. That's why I elaborate on my "maybes."


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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Diploid]
    #6232904 -

I'm mostly just verbose. :frown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Diploid]
    #6232976 -

I witness this and am guilty of this. But my problem is generally, I don't know how to either word what I'm trying to say to get the point across or I don't know exactly what I'm trying to grasp/say.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Diploid]
    #6233903 -

Diploid said:
Rather than help their opponent form satisfactory questions so they can together approach some understanding of the Truth, they debate in an adversarial, ego-driven fashion, and no knowledge is gained by either side.

Philosophical debate shouldn't be about winning, it should be about learning... for both sides.  :heart:


Maybe your method of debate encourages this kind of debate....


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Diploid]
    #6233913 -

If logic is all there is to philosophy, there would be no philosophy, just logic. life cannot be broken down into two fields, one being yes and one being no. What you say may be valid, but you can not derive right and wrong from true and false.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (11/01/06 04:05 AM)

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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: daytripper23]
    #6234000 -

Maybe your method of debate encourages this kind of debate....

The method of debate is irrelevant. So long as I don't flame anyone, it is valid for philosophical debate.

If logic is all there is to philosophy, there would be no philosophy, just logic. life cannot be broken down into two fields, one being yes and one being no.

Life may not be logical, but philosophical debate IS logical. Logic is at the CORE of philosophy. Without the procedures of logic, all you end up arguing is whose emotional attachment to an idea is more valid. That's the equivalent to answering 'maybe' to every question.

Can you not see that with everything being 'maybe', you're just sitting around chatting with friends and not doing philosophy any more? There's nothing wrong with that, but it's the type of discourse that belongs in the Pub, not here.

What you say may be valid, but you can not derive right and wrong from true and false.

Perhaps not, but you CAN analyze right and wrong more precisely and more rigorously with logic than you can by chatting.

Rigorous analysis of ideas IS philosophy.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Diploid]
    #6234008 -

Can ethics be understood by logic though? Am i right in saying that the basis of ethics is defining what is right wrong, to highly undefinable things?


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: daytripper23]
    #6234046 -

*two highly unidentifiable things


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: daytripper23]
    #6234084 -

Can ethics be understood by logic though?

It can be better understood through logic than through emotional arguments.

And even during emotional arguments, you're employing logic. You make a statement you believe to be True (Truth and Falsity are constructs of logic), and you also make supporting statements, claiming those supporting statements demonstrate the Veracity (Veracity is a logical construct) of your primary statement. You've now created a Logical dependency: IF your supporting statements are TRUE, THEN your primary statement is also TRUE, otherwise your primary statement is FALSE. More logic.

You see, there is no way to escape logic if you want to make sense of things. It's what makes words like "if" and "then" and "but" work.

Saying "This is True because I say it is" doesn't mean anything. It's a useless statement because I can say "It's NOT true because I say it's not". And you end up debating like 3rd grade kids do: Yes it is, no it's not, yes it is, no it's not... neener neener!

You need logic so when your opponent makes a statement that Contradicts (Contradiction is a logical construct too) something you both agree to be True, then you can point to the agreed-on Truth, and the statement contradicting that Truth to show that one or the other is wrong and has to be re-evaluated.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Diploid]
    #6234129 -

werd.

Ethics is some sketchy buisness.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Diploid]
    #6234177 -

Diploid IMO, your argument is rock solid. :thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Diploid]
    #6234343 -

"Maybe; ..all may be!"
~Unknown


(I only read the topic.)

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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Diploid]
    #6236308 -

I would like to pose a related question: Is it improper to contribute to a debate on a topic on which you have yet to form a strong opinion one way or another?


--------------------

Edited by Silversoul (11/01/06 08:13 PM)

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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Silversoul]
    #6236410 -

Oldwoodspector made a career out of it. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/01/06 07:47 PM)

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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Silversoul]
    #6236514 -

I would like to pose a related question: Is is improper to contribute to a debate on a topic on which you have yet to form a strong opinion one way or another?

I think that's all the MORE reason to contribute. How better to form an opinion about a difficult issue than to solicit input from your friends?

But here's the thing, for me anyway: When I'm confronted by a problem too hard for me to tackle, I break it down into several simpler sub-problems and solve those instead. When I'm done, I back up, put the pieces together, and voila! Problem solved.

I think this applies to philosophical problems too. If an issue is sufficiently complex to prevent you from reaching a definitive opinion about it, the best way to move forward is to deconstruct it. Break it down into simpler and simpler sub-issues (Yes/No questions) until you reach a point where you CAN form definitive sub-opinions, then back up and consider the resulting gestalt.

This may not finally lead you to a definitive macro-opinion, but I think it will usually get you closer. :mushroom2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Diploid]
    #6236666 -

Diploid said:
Philosopher #1: Yes or no, is it ethical to steal?
.
Philosopher #2: That depends. You'll need to precisely define the word 'theft', and specify what is being stolen and the conditions under which the theft occurs. For example, if you mean stealing a stereo from a department store, then No it's not ethical, but if you mean stealing food because you're starving, Yes it is.
.
Philosopher #1: OK, the refined question is "Yes or no, defining 'theft' as the taking of something without permission, is it ethical to steal money from a friend's wallet when he left it unattended momentarily and you know he is rich and will not miss it?"



Philosopher #2:  That depends....  How long have I been friends with this person....?

Philosopher #1: OK, the refined question is,  ""Yes or no, defining 'theft' as the taking of something without permission, is it ethical to steal money from a lifelong friend's wallet when he left it unattended momentarily and you know he is rich and will not miss it?

Philosopher #2:  How much money does my lifelong friend have in his wallet....?

Philosopher #1: OK, the refined question is,  ""Yes or no, defining 'theft' as the taking of something without permission, is it ethical to steal money from a lifelong friend's wallet filled with $2500 cash, when he left it unattended momentarily and you know he is rich and will not miss it?

Philosopher #2:  That depends....  How much money am I gonna be stealing from his wallet....?

Philosopher #1: OK, the refined question is,  ""Yes or no, defining 'theft' as the taking of something without permission, is it ethical to steal $500 from a lifelong friend's wallet filled with $2500 cash, when he left it unattended momentarily and you know he is rich and will not miss it?

Philosopher #2:  What am I stealing this money for....?

Philosopher #1: OK, the refined question is,  ""Yes or no, defining 'theft' as the taking of something without permission, is it ethical to steal $500 from a lifelong friend's wallet filled with $2500 cash, when he left it unattended momentarily and you know he is rich and will not miss it - and you really want to buy a new monitor for your computer?

Philosopher #2:  It doesn't matter, I would never ever steal money, or anything else, from ANYONE....  Never, EVER....    :noway:

Philosopher #1: :fork:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Diploid]
    #6236861 -

Replying with a stubborn 'maybe' pretty much leads to the end of the debate because if the answers are always 'maybe', then there can be no progress.

What about: "Maybe, but based on evidence-A,B,C it seems likely that my position is correct (or that your position is incorrect)." Is this acceptable?

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Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6236899 -

What about: "Maybe, but based on evidence-A,B,C it seems likely that my position is correct (or that your position is incorrect)." Is this acceptable?

Of course. But that's not really a 'maybe'.

Translated into a logiceze, it says something like: "My position is correct because A, B, and C supporting statements are True".

Now the debate can move forward by picking on A, B, and C. If they withstand scrutiny, I'd have to concede that it looks like I was wrong. But if I can find a hole in A, B, or C, then we have more debating to do.  :thumbup:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Answering 'Maybe' To A YES|NO Question [Re: Diploid]
    #6237069 -

I should've clarified this, but I can be a lazy bastard. I was referring to induction. Deduction is a good tool for formulating coherent, precise, and - the result - easily understood arguments. While deduction is useful in this regard, I doubt the efficiency of deduction for "proving" (in a loose sense of the word) an argument. In my [empiricist] opinion, rationalism has been utilized too much in the history of philosophy. Other than the style in which they are presented, I don't see much of a difference between most deductions and speculation. You can "prove" anything with a deduction as long as it follows the rules of logic.

Now that you know how much I disapprove of deduction, :lol: the big question - Is deduction the only tool available in an ethical argument?

Edited by MushmanTheManic (11/01/06 10:06 PM)

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