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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Is suicide a selfish act?
    #6202082 -

The taking of your own life is a selfish act. It is the wanton destruction of peoples lives around you. Think about it

1. You kill yourself at home - someone has to find you
2. You kill yourself by throwing yourself off a bridge - someone you dont know finds you and then you have an inquest
3. You throw yourself off a ferry - no-one finds you can you cant be declared dead for 7 years - more heartache for all.

Is there a way to do it without being selfish? I think not.

Unless anyone can come up with a better way?

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6202197 -

Of course it's selfish. You're doing it for yourself. :grin: That doesn't make it wrong or bad. If you must please try not to make others clean up the mess. It's easy to disappear into the wilderness or such.  :wink: Have fun. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6202304 -

I recommend eating a bathtub full of baked beans. It's the man's way out. Sure, someone will have to clean it up. But you can bet they will be laughing the whole time.

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6202362 -

That thinking has stopped a lot of people from doing it in the first place including myself. Others truly are selfish when it comes to that matter and the thought never crosses their mind how it will affect other people.

I feel like I've been suicidal almost all my life. I've always thought about doing it since I hit basically 4th grade. I can remember being so upset over how hard I felt like my parents were on me that I told myself I would kill myself the next day to make them feel bad and to end my suffering. Throughout the years I've wanted to do it for many different reasons. Whether it be over having only a couple friends, or no friends, or feeling like my family didn't like me, or I had no one that understands me. It all seems petty when I look back on it, but I know how much that stuff hurt when I was younger and I didn't have anything but time to heal the pain.

I'm definitely an introvert though, and if anyone in my family or friends found that out I was suicidal, I know they would be absolutely stunned. That's why I know if I ever did it they would be crushed. Which is why I don't think I'll ever do it unless I get locked up for more than 20 years.

Right now I'm ok, but that's just because things are good. Me and my g/f of 7 years off and on are better than ever and the future is bright for us, and I'm graduating college. I have a feeling if my G/f dicked me over though I would slip into the same behaviors. Depression sucks.


--------------------
“Let’s put it this way – to lump psychedelic mushrooms into the same group as methamphetamine is like lumping the Bible into the same group as Mein Kampf.
I mean shit; they’re both books, right?”

Joe Rogan


R.I.P. - "Bones" - One of the greatest people I've ever had the pleasure of getting to know and become friends with.

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: cookeman]
    #6202393 -

hey cookeman. if ever you get down, simply visit this website.

it's cool and always brings me round.

Clicky

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6202402 -

Ahahahahahaahaha. :thumbup: good stuff


--------------------
“Let’s put it this way – to lump psychedelic mushrooms into the same group as methamphetamine is like lumping the Bible into the same group as Mein Kampf.
I mean shit; they’re both books, right?”

Joe Rogan


R.I.P. - "Bones" - One of the greatest people I've ever had the pleasure of getting to know and become friends with.

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6202485 -

Everything you do is selfish. How one lives their life or ends it is their own business.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6202677 -

Not true huehuewhatever

Quote:
CORONADO, Calif. - A Navy SEAL sacrificed his life to save his comrades by throwing himself on top of a grenade Iraqi insurgents tossed into their sniper hideout, fellow members of the elite force said.

Petty Officer 2nd Class Michael A. Monsoor had been near the only door to the rooftop structure Sept. 29 when the grenade hit him in the chest and bounced to the floor, said four SEALs who spoke to The Associated Press last week on condition of anonymity because their work requires their identities to remain secret.

"He never took his eye off the grenade. His only movement was down toward it," said a 28-year-old lieutenant who sustained shrapnel wounds to both legs that day. "He undoubtedly saved mine and the other SEALs' lives, and we owe him."


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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6202686 -

Oh, and I nearly forgot



Boning him must be considered an act of charity

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6202707 -

And no one else can be hurt by your "selfish" act unless they choose to be hurt.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6202716 -

Choose to be hurt? are you dumb?

So finding your sister swinging by a beam is a choice someone made?

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6202734 -

No I'm not dumb or delusional or self-indulgent about this. You choose how you will feel and no one but yourself can make you feel anything. No matter what they do. I've had this debate a dozen times.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6202763 -

headvoid said:
Choose to be hurt? are you dumb?


Asking someone else if they are "dumb" for expressing their point of view is not acceptable in this forum. Please review the forum rules, and if you have any questions or concerns regarding the matter, feel free to send me a private message - do not reply to this notice in this thread, as it is not up for discussion in this thread. :wink:

Icelander said:
No I'm not dumb or delusional or self-indulgent about this. You choose how you will feel and no one but yourself can make you feel anything. No matter what they do. I've had this debate a dozen times.


Exactly. :thumbup:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6202820 -

Icelander said:
No I'm not dumb or delusional or self-indulgent about this. You choose how you will feel and no one but yourself can make you feel anything. No matter what they do. I've had this debate a dozen times.


That sounds like some BS to me. Most people don't choose their emotional response to actions. Just because you've discussed a subject doesn't mean you're right.

First off - if you're right, then there's really no reason not to harm other people emotionally. After all, the victim is merely choosing to be hurt.

There are autonomic responses we all have, which may be overridden to varying degrees, but still cause some immediate response. You can't completely and immediately stop a chemical cascade from going off in response to something that's very emotionally charged.

Sure, some really developed people of above average intelligence or emotional capabilities do have great control over their emotions, but the grieving one feels for the loss of a loved one isn't something most have control over. Even those who can control such emotions most likely shouldn't and don't really want to. I felt guilty for years because I shut down emotionally after a friend's death. In retrospect, simply dealing with it immediately would have been much better.

Most of the people I know are largely automatons by age 30, almost completely locked in their ways. I doubt any of them would be able to control their emotional response to anything as severe as the loss of a loved one.


Now as far as suicide being a selfish action - sure it is. Pretty much everything we do is a selfish action in some way. Even the marine who jumps on a grenade to save his buddies is being selfish in the sense that at the moment he jumps he is doing what he feels is right and what he wants to do. Nobody physically put him on the grenade, he did it for a reason - probably because he values the life of his squad over his own or wants to die a hero or whatever. We only ever do what we want to do. Even if someone puts a gun to my head and says "punch yourself in the balls" my punch to my own groin would be a selfish act since it's much better than the alternative in my mind.

This sort of selfishness isn't the same kind which deprives other people of their right to limited resources. Miserly selfishness is a bad thing and not all that common in my experience.


--------------------
Yes, I could go drive somewhere everytime the urge to defecate hits, but...where's the fun in that.
-Moth

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: SilentG]
    #6202846 -

Perhaps most individuals are not capable of controlling their emotions at the present moment, and perhaps they emotionally react to situations without making a conscious choice to do so, but yet, at the same time, I think we will all agree that they themselves are responsible for their emotional state of being. :wink:

I do not think it necessarily follows that, because individuals are capable of choosing how they will experience life, people will have no reason to not inflict suffering upon others. For one thing, physical pain still exists. For another thing, why inflict suffering on others in the first place? :grin:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6202965 -

fireworks_god said:
Perhaps most individuals are not capable of controlling their emotions at the present moment, and perhaps they emotionally react to situations without making a conscious choice to do so, but yet, at the same time, I think we will all agree that they themselves are responsible for their emotional state of being. :wink:

I do not think it necessarily follows that, because individuals are capable of choosing how they will experience life, people will have no reason to not inflict suffering upon others. For one thing, physical pain still exists. For another thing, why inflict suffering on others in the first place? :grin:

:levitate:


I would agree that in a long-term sense people are largely responsible for their own state of being. Of course there are situations like refugee camps where the overall situation is so horrible that you can't expect everyone to develop as in say, the US. In situations where like 90% of people die young or lead deplorable lives there's got to be some outside factor that does hold some sway over folks' lives.

But for most of us leading relatively normal, care-free lives, yes, we are primarily responsible for our overall state of being.

This doesn't mean the weeks of emotional anguish following a loved one's death is something we have any control over. Even if we did, controling something like that probably isn't too healthy. Grief is a pretty necessary emotion sometimes, and subjecting your loved ones to such a horrible time had damn well better be justified before someone commits suicide. I have no clue how to justify that though, since everyone's experience of life is subjective. I'd imagine the best thing to say/do is just "hey, you're gonna hurt a lot of people by killing yourself - so take that into consideration first. Explore all your options before you take the back door out."

What I was saying with the "the victim is at fault for feeling emotional pain you caused" is just that if the prior post was right, and we are all always responsible for everything we feel, than any argument about not harming others unduly is kinda shot. What if it makes me happy to hurt someone else, but I wouldn't do it because on a rational level I think it's wrong to inflict pain. If the victim is the one responsible, then that rational argument is no longer valid, and why not make myself happy by hurting others? Btw - I was talking about purely emotional pain too. Although, in reality, I view emotional and physical pain as very similar. No, I am not a horrible person who hurts others, I was simply making another argument vs the prior points which I so clearly believe to be utter self-indulgent, juvenile, Ayn Randian BS.


--------------------
Yes, I could go drive somewhere everytime the urge to defecate hits, but...where's the fun in that.
-Moth

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6202978 -

"A Navy SEAL sacrificed his life to save his comrades by throwing himself on top of a grenade Iraqi insurgents tossed into their sniper hideout, fellow members of the elite force said."

I used to be an Infantry soldier myself. I knew and trained with lots of SF, Seals, SAS, Rangers, and other hardcorp types. These guys are not about selfless sacrifice. With few exceptions it is about competition and advancement. One of the guys from my battalion during the Korean war threw himself on 5 grenades in one day (yes it is survivable) before the last one got him. His medal of honor hung on our battalion wall. In the military it is commonly made known that the whole deal is not about self sacrifice, but about watching you and your buddies ass so you can fight another day. The military doesn't care who gets killed you or someone else so they put no actual value on such actions. I often heard The Purple Heart refered to as disciplinary action for fucking up. In any case even a decision to sacrifice ones self for others is made purely out of self interest as is every decision.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6202999 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
One of the guys from my battalion during the Korean war threw himself on 5 grenades in one day (yes it is survivable) before the last one got him.


LOL, that's a joke right??

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6203016 -

NO it is real. He had to be an idiot....


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (10/23/06 07:26 PM)

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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: SilentG]
    #6203037 -

"Most people don't choose their emotional response to actions."

That is because they react instead of act. The wiser humans among us just ACT.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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