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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Are relationships selfish?
    #3026366 - 08/19/04 11:00 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I submit that they are. If they weren't, we would not actively seek them out, and would not be hurt when the other person decides to break it off. Sure, you may feel like you care about your partner's feelings, but for the most part, isn't this mainly because you want to keep them happy enough to stay with you? Now, I would like to clarify that I do not think love is selfish. Loving someone in and of itself means you have a genuine concern for them and their well-being. But the desire to be with them is entirely selfish. Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3026389 - 08/19/04 11:09 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Monogamous relationships are very selfish in nature.

You're surprising me here, my opinion of you has been changing for the better a lot lately.

That's quite honest of you to make that statement.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3026400 - 08/19/04 11:11 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Ya, I have to say I've been surprised by some of your posts lately. I guess that one trip you had really did change you.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleladychemist84
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3026407 - 08/19/04 11:12 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I do not agree with you. Relationships are completely based on giving. Trust, vulnerability, respect and attention, all those things significant in relationships are all based on giving. Just because you want someone to want or love you doesn't make you selfish. It yells out lonliness. If your in a relationship only to comfort your lonliness yet your still not happy, then thats when it becomes selfish.
That's just my thoughts on the matter.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: ladychemist84]
    #3026428 - 08/19/04 11:17 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ladychemist84 said:
Relationships are completely based on giving.



Maybe so, but to what end? You give so the person will want to stay with you.

Quote:

Just because you want someone to want or love you doesn't make you selfish. It yells out lonliness.



Loneliness is a selfish desire for attention.

Quote:

If your in a relationship only to comfort your lonliness yet your still not happy, then thats when it becomes selfish.



No, it becomes selfish as soon as you demand any fidelity, attention, or affection from your partner.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3026442 - 08/19/04 11:20 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I dont think a relationship is inherently anything. It is what the parties involved make it.

I prefer not to think of relationships as inherently selfish because I think its just a rationalization for making them so. A relationship can be completely unselfish if the parties involved make it that way, and part of being able to do that is believing it can happen.

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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3026451 - 08/19/04 11:21 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

  :thumbup: I realized quite recently that some things that I thought mattered actually do not, and some things I used to take for granted matter quite greatly.

ladychemist:

Taking another human being and considering them your personal property, and imprisoning their sexual light from the rest of the world is extremely selfish.

Monogamy is actually one of the most sinister forms of selfishness ever devised.

think outside the norm for a minute and try to look at things as if you are an observer from another world and you'll see what i mean.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3026460 - 08/19/04 11:23 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I agree with you J, take a good family for instance. Two couples... copulate... to make children... If they are good parents, they will be there for their children, and they will form a bond as to raise their kids well.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #3026466 - 08/19/04 11:24 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Or the children could just become part of the tribe. :lol:


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3026474 - 08/19/04 11:26 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

tribe?


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #3026510 - 08/19/04 11:34 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, the tribe. Wouldn't things be a lot simpler if there were tribal unity?

I'm just not into the whole molded existance thing. That is what creates all the confusion in the first place.

Big brother is no one's brother.

Imagine an entire world that is all one big family. The best way to get there would be to start with going back to tribal living.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3026571 - 08/19/04 11:49 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Well if im going to dig into your past thoughts, im going to assume that this is the conclusion you came to.

You either think that how i refer to the "nuclear" family is bullshit, and that it only keeps seperate families, seperate.

Even if im wrong in assuming why you came to that conclusion, it wouldnt make a difference. Moving on.

A big happy family would be nice. BUt the sad part is, people who have kids cant take care of them, and neither can the adoption agencies (usually) who give their kids away.

Were not gonna have some nice tribe again till people can start doing there part. Thats what makes a tribe.

I see a world of couples who cant take care of their offspring, of men who cant seem to "deserve circumcision", catch my drift?

I think levels of intimacy are only possible by two people, this makes dealing with offspring much easier.

Besides, i consider my friends my family, my tribe, I even consider some people here at these boards, "my tribesman of the wood"... dont take that the wrong way now!!  :grin:


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Invisibleladychemist84
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3026580 - 08/19/04 11:50 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:



Taking another human being and considering them your personal property, and imprisoning their sexual light from the rest of the world is extremely selfish.

Monogamy is actually one of the most sinister forms of selfishness ever devised.

think outside the norm for a minute and try to look at things as if you are an observer from another world and you'll see what i mean.





You must not be in a happy relationship. If your not ready for monogomy, then why be in a relationship? That's the point isn't it? Being happy, with one person. Having a family, having a lifetime friend and lover. If that's selfish, then I'm one selfish bitch.

Besides, your viewing it from a sexual point of view. Consider the other aspects of it.

Think outside of the sex, and then explain why relationships are selfish.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: ladychemist84]
    #3026590 - 08/19/04 11:53 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You must not be in a happy relationship. If your not ready for monogomy, then why be in a relationship? That's the point isn't it? Being happy, with one person. Having a family, having a lifetime friend and lover. If that's selfish, then I'm one selfish bitch.



As long as you can admit it. Don't get me wrong--I very much long to be in a relationship with someone, but I also recognize that that is a selfish desire, and I'm willing to live with that.

Quote:

Besides, your viewing it from a sexual point of view. Consider the other aspects of it.

Think outside of the sex, and then explain why relationships are selfish.



Sex is a big part of relationships. If you tell someone they can't have sex with anyone else besides you, how is that not selfish?


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: ladychemist84]
    #3026609 - 08/19/04 11:57 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Well, "relationship" can mean anything. I have a good "relationship" with my cat.

I guess I got off topic, because i was speaking of "monogamous sexual relationships".

And yes, those are selfish as hell. But it's the way most people are brainwashed into thinkng, so I'm not gonna try to offend anyone by arguing the point to much.

I want an egoless world where everyone fucks whoever they choose.

My bad.


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Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3026626 - 08/19/04 11:59 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

have you ever been sexually active with two women at once (not a menage trois, but separately)?

it made me feel both guilty and selfish, much moreso than any monogamous relationship I've been in.

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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3026627 - 08/19/04 11:59 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Yay!! Aids!!!  :laugh:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3026636 - 08/20/04 12:01 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
have you ever been sexually active with two women at once (not a menage trois, but separately)?

it made me feel both guilty and selfish, much moreso than any monogamous relationship I've been in.



No, can't say I have.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3026666 - 08/20/04 12:08 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

this is what I think:

many people have hardwired emotional mechanisms that make polyamoury very difficult for them to accept. These human beings tend to seek eachother out because they share this common acknowledgement of their own weakness, if you want to call it that. Really I dont think its a weakness, just a difference.

Some people don't have this inhibition, and I say more power to them. But I tend to not get involved with people like that, because I know where I'll end up emotionally if I do.

Personally I've seen a lot of evidence that monogamy is a beneficial evolutionary mechanism. I think i've already mentioned the mountain voles versus the prairie voles arguement before in this forum.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3026683 - 08/20/04 12:12 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Oh, I don't doubt that monogamy is helpful to our evolution, but that doesn't make it any less selfish, unless of course you're just doing it for the survival of the species.


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Invisibleladychemist84
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3026686 - 08/20/04 12:12 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)


Quote:

silversoul7

Quote:

I said:
You must not be in a happy relationship. If your not readyfor monogomy, then why be in a relationship? That's the point isn't it? Being happy, with one person. Having a family, having a lifetime friend and lover. If that's selfish, then I'm one selfish bitch.





As long as you can admit it. Don't get me wrong--I very much long to be in a relationship with someone, but I also recognize that that is a selfish desire, and I'm willing to live with that.
 




If you continue to believe that's a selfish desire, how is that going to affect your partner? If your wanting a serious relationship, that takes giving. Giving yourself mind body and soul. Explain to me what changes in a relationship when YOU decide you don't feel like being selfish anymore? Do you allow your partner to go out and screw other guys? I mean..that's not a selfish act on your part. But your partner's out there getting there groove on with another knowing your at home waiting. Who's the selfish one then? Of course sex is a big deal in a relationship, but it's not the most important.
A relationship allows you to be open and honest and comfortable enough to share your thoughts and feelings. In turn allows a relationship to build on love and respect. That is complete giving of yourself.  :heart:

Edited by ladychemist84 (08/20/04 12:21 AM)

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Invisibleladychemist84
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3026705 - 08/20/04 12:16 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

oopsi, I edited that post wrong. Didn't mean for it to look all screwed up like that. But you get the point!!


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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3026720 - 08/20/04 12:20 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sure a few of you may have already read my views on monogomy, which I detest. Monogamous sexual relationships are rooted in selfishness, jealousy and fear (of loneliness). Unfortunately, this is the way the majority of people think things must be.

In a Buddhist sense, any desire is inherently selfish, as the desire stems from the self or 'I.' The sense of 'selfness' is an illusion maintained by the ego which results in many types of fear, including loneliness.

A relationship NOT based on selfishness would be one where two people enjoy each other's company but also allow each other to do whatever they like and accept whatever that is. Try telling that to the average person who would be horrified to find their partner sleeping with someone else.  :rolleyes:

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: ladychemist84]
    #3026723 - 08/20/04 12:22 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ladychemist84 said:
If you continue to believe that's a selfish desire, how is that going to affect your partner?



If she's mature enough, hopefully she'll understand.

Quote:

If your wanting a serious relationship, that takes giving. Giving yourself mind body and soul.



Yes, I've been in relationships before, and there was all of that.  But underlying all that was one irrefutable fact:  I wanted to be with that person.

Quote:

Explain to me what changes in a relationship when YOU decide you don't feel like being selfish anymore? Do you allow your partner to go out and screw other guys?



I can only hope that I can be so selfless as to do just that.  But I fear I am too jealous to actually do that.

Quote:

Of course sex is a big deal in a relationship, but it's not the most important.
A relationship allows you to be open and honest and comfortable enough to share your thoughts and feelings. In turn allows a relationship to build on love and respect. That is complete giving of yourself.  :heart:



Don't lecture me about giving.  I've experienced love of the highest order.  Our relationship ended long ago, but I still love her.  She told me a while back that she was with another guy, and I accepted that and embraced it, because she seemed happy.  True love is taking yourself completely out of the picture, where it is only the other person that matters.


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Invisibleladychemist84
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3026769 - 08/20/04 12:34 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Don't lecture me about giving. I've experienced love of the highest order. Our relationship ended long ago, but I still love her. She told me a while back that she was with another guy, and I accepted that and embraced it, because she seemed happy.





Sorry, I wasn't lecturing. I was giving my opinion.

Quote:

True love is taking yourself completely out of the picture, where it is only the other person that matters.




You said it my friend...that is a completely unselfish act!!! Thank You!


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: ladychemist84]
    #3026775 - 08/20/04 12:36 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ladychemist84 said:
Quote:

True love is taking yourself completely out of the picture, where it is only the other person that matters.




You said it my friend...that is a completely unselfish act!!! Thank You!



And do you not see how this is incompatible with monogamy?


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Invisibleladychemist84
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3026811 - 08/20/04 12:53 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Of course it isn't! I guess you said it earlier, love isn't a selfish act. You've obviously loved enough to make another happy. I can't say it enough how unselfish that is. Sometimes, in relationships, that's what you must do. Now your alone knowing your love is with another. That's hard to do. That is true love. That is giving.

Your obviously not together anymore so where should compatibilty fit in here.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: ladychemist84]
    #3026818 - 08/20/04 12:55 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Again, answer my question: How is it not selfish to forbid someone else from sleeping with anyone they choose? If we only care about the other's happiness, then it would naturally follow that we allow them to do whatever makes them happy, even if that includes sleeping with other people.


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OfflineCaRnAgECaNdYS
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3026868 - 08/20/04 01:16 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Forbidding someone from sleeping with anyone they choose can be selfish IF your not in a relationship with them. If you are, then that's not selfish at all, that's love! IMHO, I think sometimes relationships can be selfish, depending on what type of relationship your in. If your in an open relationship, then there's an opportunity to be as selfish as you wanna be. If your in a committed and loving relationship where there's mutual respect and trust, then there's no room for selfishness.

We are still on that topic here right?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: CaRnAgECaNdY]
    #3026998 - 08/20/04 02:07 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Desiree said:
Forbidding someone from sleeping with anyone they choose can be selfish IF your not in a relationship with them. If you are, then that's not selfish at all, that's love!



Pardon my rudeness, but what a load of bullshit. Love is wanting the other person to be happy, not restricting them from being with others.

Quote:

IMHO, I think sometimes relationships can be selfish, depending on what type of relationship your in. If your in an open relationship, then there's an opportunity to be as selfish as you wanna be.



Or to be completely selfless. If you can let the one you love sleep with other people, that is selfless devotion.

Quote:

If your in a committed and loving relationship where there's mutual respect and trust, then there's no room for selfishness.



No, it requires selfishness. Sure, you have to be unselfish enough to not sleep with other people because your partner doesn't want you to, but you also have to be selfish enough to demand that they do the same.

Basically, you have four options:

a. Stay out of relationships
b. Be in an open relationship where you don't prohibit your partner from doing anything with other people
c. Admit to yourself that you are a human being with flaws, and are either unable or unwilling to give up your selfish desires
d. Continue to live in denial and believe that your desire to be with someone is anything other than selfish


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3027057 - 08/20/04 02:31 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

although it could be seen as emotionally selfish for me to desire commitment, from my emotional position it seems selfish for a woman to want to share that level of intimacy with me and yet still be with other guys. Because I am a human being, and no amount of enlightenment is going to keep me from being jealous. I can use logic to run from this reality all I want, but I think thats escapism, and ultimately it wont work.

Honestly I think people who expect a certain amount of intimacy without commitment are selfish because they are ignoring the emotions of all the people they are involved with. These people are having their cake and eating it too, at the emotional expense of others.

Also, a word about commitment: I believe that commitment is the basis of society. We have only been able to accomplish such grand endeavors as a race because we accept a certain amount of commitment to eachother as fellow beings. If you want to live in a world without commitment, you should go live in the wilderness and do everything yourself. But even then you would still be living with commitment because in order to survive in such an endeavor you would have to be committed to yourself.

Imagine if one day I were to decide to build a car. But then halfway through that, I get bored and decide to build a boat. But then building the boat gets old, so I decide to build a house... and so on and so on until what I end up with is a bunch of time wasted on half-finished projects. You cant build anything substantial without commitment and follow through. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices and endure a litlle pain in order to create something beautiful, and thats what committed relationships are all about. Too many people start projects they dont finish, and in the end make no emotional progress. Instead of seeing a singular vision through, they become distracted and end up with a bunch of scars and emotuional baggage from the unfinished business of relationships that failed because they were given up on.

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OfflineCaRnAgECaNdYS
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3027325 - 08/20/04 05:35 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Basically, you have four options:

a. Stay out of relationships
b. Be in an open relationship where you don't prohibit your partner from doing anything with other people
c. Admit to yourself that you are a human being with flaws, and are either unable or unwilling to give up your selfish desires
d. Continue to live in denial and believe that your desire to be with someone is anything other than selfish





I think that's so wrong.

I love the thought of having one man for the rest of my life. Period.
The thought of committing myself completely to just one man in one relationship, is absolutely amazing!
I couldn't imagine it any other way. Hmm, maybe you haven't really loved. Or you'd understand the difference between being selfish and being unselfish in a real relationship. My thoughts have been expressed. I really hope that you find someone who'll make you happy enough to understand the real meaning of unselfishness. I'm done here.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3027397 - 08/20/04 06:15 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Disillusionment. Remove the blindfolds to see everyone else is blindfolded. You've got it right, ss7.

Yes, relationships are very selfish in nature. Some people wont understand it this way, because it makes them happy to be with someone else. Its a romantic dependancy kind of thing. All movies, literature, magazines, society, pretty much everything exploit this image and it has been ingrained in our heads, understandably.

How can I prove this? Quite easily, really. Look at the marriage and divorce rates in the US. Boy we americans sure lack dedication to committment, eh? But, then again, why feel obliged to stay in something forever that you really dont want to? So then why marry in the first place? All these answers point to selfishness.

Then there is true love. I've heard it exists, although, I've never been convinced. Usually true love is when a guy sees a really hot chick and doesnt want to stop banging her... I've been fooled before :smile:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Offlinefredthetree
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3027507 - 08/20/04 07:33 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

If a person will leave a relationship because it was "bad" then yes it is selfish, no?

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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: CaRnAgECaNdY]
    #3027778 - 08/20/04 08:59 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Desiree said:
Quote:

Basically, you have four options:

a. Stay out of relationships
b. Be in an open relationship where you don't prohibit your partner from doing anything with other people
c. Admit to yourself that you are a human being with flaws, and are either unable or unwilling to give up your selfish desires
d. Continue to live in denial and believe that your desire to be with someone is anything other than selfish





I think that's so wrong.

I love the thought of having one man for the rest of my life. Period.



And I'm sure you would be more than happy to restrict him from seeing other women, right?

Quote:

The thought of committing myself completely to just one man in one relationship, is absolutely amazing!



Oh, I understand.  I personally could easily see myself devoting myself entirely to one woman.  But to demand the same of her would be selfish.

Quote:

I couldn't imagine it any other way. Hmm, maybe you haven't really loved. Or you'd understand the difference between being selfish and being unselfish in a real relationship.



I believe it is you who have not truly loved.  I have loved more deeply than you can imagine.  As I said before, true love involves taking yourself completely out the equation, and desiring only the other's happiness, even if it involves ending the relationship.

Quote:

My thoughts have been expressed. I really hope that you find someone who'll make you happy enough to understand the real meaning of unselfishness. I'm done here.



:lol:  I pity you for not knowing what true unselfishness is.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3028005 - 08/20/04 10:04 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

how is it selfish to ask someone for the same thing you are willing to give them? I could see how it would be selfish to ask someone for commitment if I wasnt committed to them. But if its a mutual exchange of my commitment for theirs, how is that selfish?

My love is an exclusive contract. I dont see how that is any more selfish than a landlord asking someone to sign a lease agreement.

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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3028022 - 08/20/04 10:10 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

If they are willing to voluntarily stay faithful to you, then that's fine. But if you demand it of them, I think that is a bit restrictive. True love is unconditional, and if you truly love someone, then you will love them regardless of whether or not they remain exclusive to you. Love is not a contract. It is a gift, and it is given unconditionally.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3028044 - 08/20/04 10:17 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

yeah but if someone truly loved you, why would they put you through the emotional pain of being with someone else?

Faithfulness isnt a demand, its just something people do for eachother when they respect eachother's feelings. I dont think love can exist if the parties involved dont respect eachother's feelings.

I understand the whole 'unconditional love' thing, believe me. There is one girl in particular I will always love despite the many things she has done to hurt me. But its not really that simple or logical. Because the love is unrequited, there is pain there. And anger. Do I truly love her? Absolutely. I would take a bullet for her. But even though I truly love her unconditionally, there is still a lot of bitterness and resentment. These matters are not as clean cut and simple as you or I would like them to be.

the bottom line is, all I want out of a girl is a person who is capable of matching what i have to bring to the table. And that includes commitment. No, I dont think thats selfish at all, because I'm willing to do the exact same for her, whoever she may be.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3028062 - 08/20/04 10:21 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
yeah but if someone truly loved you, why would they put you through the emotional pain of being with someone else?



This isn't about whether the other person loves you or not. If you love them, then you will let them do what makes them happy.

Quote:

Faithfulness isnt a demand, its just something people do for eachother when they respect eachother's feelings. I dont think love can exist if the parties involved dont respect eachother's feelings.



I understand, and I personally would never cheat on someone I loved. But if I loved them, I would not make such demands on them.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3028076 - 08/20/04 10:25 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

faithfulness isnt a demand you make on someone else, its a demand you make on yourself:

"I'm going to be faithful to this person because I love them. If they disrespect my feelings by not doing the same, then its obvious they dont love me, and its time to move on. I may still love that person for the rest of my life, but I cant be with someone who makes me feel like shit. I owe that to myself."

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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3028111 - 08/20/04 10:31 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Point taken. I see where you're coming from, but I think it's precisely because of our selfish desire to have that person all to ourselves that we are hurt by their infidelity. Jealousy is a manifestation of selfishness and possessiveness. I think if you could truly get past your ego to the point of only desiring their happiness, then you would not be hurt by them fooling around with other people.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3028134 - 08/20/04 10:40 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

man, I 've eaten a lot of acid and studied under a lot of yogis and meditated for God knows how many thousands of hours, but I have to admit I'm still a jealous motherfucker. I could ignore the emotion, but I counldnt prevent it from occuring. And also, I'm not a big fan of denial based in pipe-dream idealism.

if we didnt have egos, we wouldnt be human beings. I'm not aware of a living creature that doesnt have some form of ego, or at least self-preservation instincts. These things are not all that we are, but they do have their purpose. If you're going to deny them, you might as well cut out a big chunk of your DNA and deny that, too.

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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3028153 - 08/20/04 10:45 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, I understand it's going against our biology, but so is celebacy, and people manage to pull that off. I'm sure it's possible with enough self-discipline.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3028158 - 08/20/04 10:47 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

There are no selfish relationships; only selfish PEOPLE.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3028205 - 08/20/04 11:00 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Again, answer my question:  How is it not selfish to forbid someone else from sleeping with anyone they choose?  If we only care about the other's happiness, then it would naturally follow that we allow them to do whatever makes them happy, even if that includes sleeping with other people.




Short and to the point, open relationships are unselfish, and monogamous ones are extremely selfish.

If I had my way... :evil:

..I would dissolve every relationship on Earth and plunge humanity back into an entirely egoless existance!! :mushroom2: :thumbup:


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3028212 - 08/20/04 11:03 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Again, answer my question:  How is it not selfish to forbid someone else from sleeping with anyone they choose?  If we only care about the other's happiness, then it would naturally follow that we allow them to do whatever makes them happy, even if that includes sleeping with other people.




Short and to the point, open relationships are unselfish, and monogamous ones are extremely selfish.

If I had my way... :evil:

..I would dissolve every relationship on Earth and plunge humanity back into an entirely egoless existance!! :mushroom2: :thumbup:



I actually wouldn't go that far.  I've said monogamy is selfish, but what I didn't say was that selfishness is necessarily a bad thing.  As long as we still have our physical bodies, we'll still have a need for an ego.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineTheChiaPetFarmer
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3028232 - 08/20/04 11:08 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

SS7: Why does it matter to you if relationships are selfish or not? Are you having girl problems? What are your internal motivations for asking this question?

If two people both agree to take part in a monogamous relationship, then it's not selfish to not want the other person to mate with others. It's not selfish because they both agreed to a BINDING CONTRACT. Most binding contracts require the participating parties to surrender *some* of their respective rights. In a monogamous relationship, you surrender your right to mate with other people. It's not about jealousy or selfishness. The reason why a person in a monogamous relationship gets mad when the other person goes off humping someone else is because he/she violated the contract of monogamy. In other words, that person got the short end of the stick. Is it wrong for you to be mad if you got screwed over in a deal? I think not. It's not selfish for wanting the other person to stay true to their words when they entered into the contract.

Along the same lines:
I assume you live in the US (if not, then just say you do for hypothetical reasons). And since you are a citizen of the US, you are under some kind of contract whereby you surrender some of your rights. Is the US *selfish* for not allowing you to leave the country, join al queda and become a traitor, and fight against the US?

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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: TheChiaPetFarmer]
    #3028249 - 08/20/04 11:14 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SS7: Why does it matter to you if relationships are selfish or not? Are you having girl problems? What are your internal motivations for asking this question?



Why is it that people must always suspect a personal motivation for my philosophical ideas? I arrived at this conclusion through logic, and nothing else.

Quote:

If two people both agree to take part in a monogamous relationship, then it's not selfish to not want the other person to mate with others. It's not selfish because they both agreed to a BINDING CONTRACT. Most binding contracts require the participating parties to surrender *some* of their respective rights. In a monogamous relationship, you surrender your right to mate with other people. It's not about jealousy or selfishness. The reason why a person in a monogamous relationship gets mad when the other person goes off humping someone else is because he/she violated the contract of monogamy. In other words, that person got the short end of the stick. Is it wrong for you to be mad if you got screwed over in a deal? I think not. It's not selfish for wanting the other person to stay true to their when they entered into the contract.



I understand the whole contract argument, but I think the very reason why you have to agree to not see other people is because of a selfish desire to have that person all to yourself. If we didn't have such self-serving desires, we wouldn't feel the need to enter into such a contract.

Quote:

Along the same lines:
I assume you live in the US (if not, then just say you do for hypothetical reasons). And since you are a citizen of the US, you are under some kind of contract whereby you surrender some of your rights.



Bullshit. I refuse to surrender my rights simply because my parents happened to fuck here.

Quote:

Is the US *selfish* for not allowing you to leave the country, join al queda and become a traitor, and fight against the US?



Very much so.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3028276 - 08/20/04 11:26 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I think they are basically selfish, no matter how you like loving someone, your doing it becasue YOU want to.

I was involved with a girl with a boyfriend and i loved her so much and loved giving her so much attention, i thought i liked making her happy, but at the end of the day it didnt make me happy anymore so i dropped her stankinass. I still love her in some weird way, but i wish i didnt!


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OfflineTheChiaPetFarmer
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3028284 - 08/20/04 11:28 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bullshit. I refuse to surrender my rights simply because my parents happened to fuck here.




Haha. Funny. That's not your choice. Whether you agree to it, or even choose to comprehend it, you've given up some of your rights already buddy. Rethink this one before you get yourself into trouble, ok? Don't go into a theater and yell "fire", yeah?


Quote:

I arrived at this conclusion through logic, and nothing else.




And this is the same logic you used to arrive at the conclusion in the first quote? Yeah, ok. I can definitely see where you're coming from now.


Quote:

Very much so.



Then what are you doing in the US? If the US is "being selfish", then by you staying here, aren't you approving of their selfishness?

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: TheChiaPetFarmer]
    #3028297 - 08/20/04 11:32 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

He's just pointing out that its selfish and it is.

Chill out, jeez.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: TheChiaPetFarmer]
    #3029522 - 08/20/04 05:27 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TheChiaPetFarmer said:
Quote:

Bullshit. I refuse to surrender my rights simply because my parents happened to fuck here.




Haha. Funny. That's not your choice. Whether you agree to it, or even choose to comprehend it, you've given up some of your rights already buddy. Rethink this one before you get yourself into trouble, ok? Don't go into a theater and yell "fire", yeah?



Just because the government does not recognize certain rights does not mean I have surrendered them. They don't recognize my right to smoke weed, but I do that anyway.

Quote:

Quote:

I arrived at this conclusion through logic, and nothing else.




And this is the same logic you used to arrive at the conclusion in the first quote? Yeah, ok. I can definitely see where you're coming from now.



Is this going to deteriorate into a flame war? Cuz if so, I'd like to know ahead of time so I can put you on ignore.

Quote:

Quote:

Very much so.



Then what are you doing in the US? If the US is "being selfish", then by you staying here, aren't you approving of their selfishness?



Unfortunately, there are no unselfish countries out there. There are few, if any, unselfish people out there. Selfishness is a part of human nature.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3029588 - 08/20/04 05:44 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I have to agree with DoctorJ here.

I think you may be overlooking a small thing - if you're involved in anything, youre connecting yourself with it. Yes, if you're in a relationship, you're "selfish" because you are binding your ego with someone else's.
Example: It is selfish to play sports.
It is selfish to act kindly. ( because of the reciprocal relationship here - if you are kind to others, you expect others to see you as kind. OR, as I've noticed in some people, they automatically feel you owe them for their un-requested kindndess )
It is selfish to exercise
It is selfish to smoke.
*EVERYTHING* can be interpreted as selfish, depending on who is doing it. Thats what makes evolutionary psychology such a solid theory.

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OfflineSevenFlowers
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3029780 - 08/20/04 06:35 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


think outside the norm for a minute and try to look at things as if you are an observer from another world and you'll see what i mean.




That sounds like a very anthropological perspective.

It?s like the geology/biology of human societies. Jealousy and monogamous relationships are not intrinsic human traits, nor are they necessarily biologically beneficial. The structure and conditioning of our society make us believe in monogamy and our romantic ideals about courting and love. These "Romantic" ideals have not existed since the beginning of time. Different practices have existed in different societies. Nuclear families work well with our social dynamics. And... our relationships are quite like intimate friendships in which you own the other person's genitals. Yes, there are plenty of differences but that's the most stripped down and fundamental anthropological element of it.

I want a regular loving romantic relationship like most people, but when you study about how whole societies work and what they believe, you see the two have more than a casual correlation. The original question is a very personal one, so I don't really think too much anthropological thought should be applied to it, but it's great to keep it in mind. I can't really answer on a personal basis, for lack of experience (damnit).


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OfflineMad_Buhdda_Abuser
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Re: Are relationships selfish? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3029798 - 08/20/04 06:39 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

As the chef from southpark say's " you gotta make love to your woman, you gotta lay her down by that fire". This type of relationship is sexual, but not selfish. How you ask? Well when the Chef is making love to his women they are sharing and giving to eachother what god gave them, their sexual organs. On the basis that they are in a meaningful relationship and care for the other well being. But when monogamous relationshps arise it is extremeley selfish, why you ask? Simple, because these so called relationships do not mean anything, both people involved are in it to complete their sexual desires. Or in the words of fifty Cent they are there "to bust a nut".

EZ BUhdda as in the green

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