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InvisibleSwami
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Selfishness is Good
    #2569408 - 04/16/04 08:35 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

But highly misunderstood. It an evolutionary mechanism, but can be expanded with awareness.

Scenario 1. Gnarg and Thog find a dead carcass and fight over it.
Immediate needs are all that is considered,

Scenario 2. Gnarg and Thog figure out that they can get even more food by hunting together.
This type of cooperation is a form of forward-thinking selfishness.

In any war between country X and country Y; both countries lose no matter whom is declared the victor. Whereas, with mutual cooperation, both countries win.

If we expanded our "selfishness" sufficiently into the future, then this world would indeed be a garden; all of us getting what we want. So it is not the motivation that is flawed, but the limited perspective in which it is applied.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineDroz
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2569501 - 04/16/04 08:57 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Very well put Swami.

Now i'll trade you some of my tomatoes for those cucumbers.


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Evolution of Time.

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2569664 - 04/16/04 09:50 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

But, in the examples you have provided, it is not only your own well-being that is considered in the solution. Thats being selfless. Of course you have an intention for yourself and it will be provided for you, naturally, if you can trust that others will radiate the same selflessness as you.


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


Edited by psyka (04/16/04 09:53 PM)

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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2569679 - 04/16/04 09:57 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Excellent point Swami, and I think I agree. Part of an 'evolutionary' view of selfishness should take into account that selfishness to the point of eliminating all other or most or many other human beings would be highly negative because it would reduce the gene pool and thus limit possibilities for future adaptations. More cooperative forms of selfishness could be beneficial because they would maintain (or with mutations, enlarge) the gene pool and allow for better possibilities for future adaptations.

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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2569685 - 04/16/04 09:58 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Be divinely selfish.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2569712 - 04/16/04 10:10 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I don't like 'em, it's like eating snot off a tea cup saucer.



** edit **
:blush: Whoops!  Sorry, I thought this thread was about oysters.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (04/16/04 10:15 PM)

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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2569719 - 04/16/04 10:14 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

edit

Edited by 2Experimental (04/16/04 10:15 PM)

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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2569734 - 04/16/04 10:29 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Cooperate? But wouldn't that require generous amounts of tolerance and eventual sharing?


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2569975 - 04/17/04 12:23 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

your trading one set of meaning off for another? What is the point? Your getting someone to look through a different vantage point.

People are fooling themselves when they think that any decision they make is not at least on some definable surface as "selfish". What are the extents of selfishness... does selfishness have a world of its own. Does selflesness find it self in sefishness....


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What?

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2570000 - 04/17/04 12:29 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Selfish (Self"ish) (?), a.

1. Caring supremely or unduly for one's self; regarding one's own comfort, advantage, etc., in disregard, or at the expense, of those of others. "They judge of things according to their own private appetites and selfish passions." Cudworth. "In that throng of selfish hearts untrue." Keble.
2. (Ethics) Believing or teaching that the chief motives of human action are derived from gratifying one's own pleasure. "Hobbes and the selfish school of philosophers." Fleming.
3. Meanly covetous or avarcious in dealing with others; stingy.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: trendal]
    #2570067 - 04/17/04 12:52 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

right, but im going to guess swamis intentions are differently on this thread. Maybe... i presume hes trying to lead it back to definition 2.


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What?

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OfflineSource
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2570127 - 04/17/04 01:14 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Selfishness will never lead to self - the closer it gets, the further it will be. Because the self does not exist silly MAN!


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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OfflineSource
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2570138 - 04/17/04 01:21 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Swami,

Beautiful post man! I like the way you think! So the question is Swami: Why are our "leaders/slave holders" using the most primitive and short-term form of selfishness (direct, immediate competition) and why haven't they devoloped to the more sophisticated level of cooperative selfishness?

Are they really so far behind evolutionarily, or do they know time is short?


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Source]
    #2570480 - 04/17/04 08:15 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Source said:
Why are our "leaders/slave holders" using the most primitive and short-term form of selfishness (direct, immediate competition) and why haven't they devoloped to the more sophisticated level of cooperative selfishness?




they've been allowed to.
and there's not a whole lot they're smart enough to figure out for themselves...


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2570495 - 04/17/04 08:27 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Greed which could be seen as a grossly exagerated form of selfishness is not good in my current opinion. It could well be the one of the root causes of much which is wrong with the world today.


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Always Smi2le

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Offlinedaba
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2570498 - 04/17/04 08:36 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe this thread should be entitled: Cooperation is Good, since cooperation is socially represented as a "good" thing.


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Fold for The Shroomery!

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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2570518 - 04/17/04 08:54 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

so swami...do we have the capacity to help others simply by jsut wanting to? or is that just some flimsy pipe dream?


I agree we should work together, but working together for mea at least will only truley work if we are out for each other more than we are for ourselves. we've been tring to out-do each other for some time and it really hasn't helped much, or has it??

are you saying underneath all of our actions is a plan (consciously) to benefit ourselves? hmmmm....


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: daba]
    #2570526 - 04/17/04 09:04 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Cooperation is good, thats why society represents it thus!


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Always Smi2le

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: kaiowas]
    #2570586 - 04/17/04 09:29 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

are you saying underneath all of our actions is a plan (consciously) to benefit ourselves? hmmmm....

Of course it is though not always consciously.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2570617 - 04/17/04 09:57 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I dont see how you can claim that as a fact. You believers annoy me with your bold unsubstantiated claims!  :smirk:


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: GazzBut]
    #2571302 - 04/17/04 02:33 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

from my perspective it always seems that people want to help others in order to be a "good" person. ego-boosting. even though there are no tangible gains by helping others, they do gain a sense of self-satisfaction. even that is a selfish motive, though it's not a "greedy" motive.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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OfflineHeterodox
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2571373 - 04/17/04 03:17 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Lately I've been batting around the idea that existance as we know it is a form of selfishness.

By simply choosing to consciously exist in this paradigm of life we are constantly taking and devouring from the external world around us. Life feeds on life, etc. Even by sucking in the surrounding oxygen we are making a choice to affect the world (for better or worse) to sustain life for one additional breath. Is this not the epitomy of selfishness?

But, of coure, this is a very one-dimensional point of view. It doesn't figure in, for instance, how our continued existance could result in positive (selfLESS) actions, thus balancing the equation.

Still, it would seem that to be ultimately humble, one must make the conscious decision to stop taking from this world. To simply allow oneself to die. Perhaps it is in this "non-action" that we would truly find ourselves - and the accompanying happiness.

Anyone willing to document this experiment and let us know how it turns out?

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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Heterodox]
    #2571384 - 04/17/04 03:22 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Heterodox said:
Still, it would seem that to be ultimately humble, one must make the conscious decision to stop taking from this world. To simply allow oneself to die. Perhaps it is in this "non-action" that we would truly find ourselves - and the accompanying happiness.

Anyone willing to document this experiment and let us know how it turns out?




well, frankly, NO.
every living being in existence has one major goal - self preservation. selfishness. we all exist to live long enough to replicate ourselves. and living your life and behaving in a way which will always, ultimately seem selfish can't really be considered all that bad... the only other option is suicide... and I'd rather, um, be alive. it's like, instinctual and shit, ya dig?  :tongue:


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2571388 - 04/17/04 03:25 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

self-ISH-ness

Doesn't the "ish" part of the word indicate a description of someone who is only "kinda full of themself?"

Hmm...ish means potential  :yesnod:


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #2571404 - 04/17/04 03:31 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I think it is possible to move past the ego-reward reason for doing "good" acts and simply do them out of a sense of knowing that they need to be done.


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: GazzBut]
    #2571459 - 04/17/04 03:56 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
I think it is possible to move past the ego-reward reason for doing "good" acts and simply do them out of a sense of knowing that they need to be done.





"need" to be done for what purpose?


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2571596 - 04/17/04 05:02 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

There is a line between selfishness for survival and selfishness that willfully harms others.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Shroomism]
    #2571674 - 04/17/04 05:26 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

There is a line between selfishness for survival and selfishness that willfully harms others.

Not in a fight.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Sclorch]
    #2571691 - 04/17/04 05:30 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Indeed.  :yesnod:


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OfflineHeterodox
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #2571711 - 04/17/04 05:37 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Albino, your argument holds plenty of weight. But, whereas its defintely natural and instinctual for us to do the things we are born into, humanity seems to think this makes them "right."

I wouldn't really consider this the case. I think its a misconception to say "We are born into this world where everything else is killing to survive, so it must not be a bad thing..." Consider for a moment that we were born into a flawed world. Instinct is not a model of perfection. In fact, consider that the selfish nature of man (to consume and replicate) is indeed how you and I got here (selfish consuming and replicating parents).

And in the same vein of thought... "the only other option is suicide"

Choosing not to participate in the cycle of selfishness is far from suicide in my opinion. That is to say, the universe will inevitably kill you, and merely letting it do so (rather than putting up a fight for 80 years) is indirectly harming yourself at best. Physically controlling an object (including your body) with the intention of lethally harming yourself is suicide. Note: there is definately a difference between controlling and choosing NOT to control. I note this to discredit the idea that "letting yourself die would be physically controlling your body to instigate your own death," or similar arguments. In reality it is the absence of control, and the world is doing the killing.

Once again though, this all is obviously a bit narrow and elitist (if not just downright negative). It's as if I'm saying the secret to life is death. Despite how romantic that sounds, I'm not sure I'm ready to stop breathing. I've tried to sort of metathink on this path of thoughts. I envisioned myself choosing to die in this world, and upon "opening my eyes" in the next world (whatever that paradigm of existance might be), simply letting myself die again. In this manner I would fall aimlessly though countless realities in a sort of constantly clean, zen-like state.

That string of logic seemed flawwed, however, as I soon realized that babies do not have the intelligence to choose non-action as a rebellion to selfishness. Of course, maybe I'm wrong about that too. Maybe if a cleansed and selfLESS soul of someone who'd chosen death through non-action in another world were to inhabit a baby in this one, it would subconsciously choose to die. Could this be the reason behind unexplained stillbirths? Its as if they'd open their eyes (or EYE) and say "Whoa whoa man...fuck this place, I'm out!"

So maybe we're all dirty, fucking disgusting selfish pigs who didn't figure out anything last go round, and continue to go with the flow this time out?



So, please don't take any of that too seriously. Its all just a bunch of pondering and metathinking on a subject I feel we have no answer for. I don't particularly believe in anything I mentioned (souls, multiple reality/existance paradigms, evolving from each "life's" experiences, etc), but I don't disbelieve them either. Let's just say I'd love for them to be true.


Oh, and GazzBut seems to be referring to the primary belief of existentialists - that there is an obvious and innate responsibility for every conscious living thing to contribute positively to the world it resides in. I'm quite a fan of this train of thought...kind of like a spiritual "common sense." (We're supposed to do good things? Duh.)

Dictionary.com, existentialist:
A philosophy that emphasizes the uniqueness and isolation of the individual experience in a hostile or indifferent universe, regards human existence as unexplainable, and stresses freedom of choice and responsibility for the consequences of one's acts.

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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Heterodox]
    #2571848 - 04/17/04 06:17 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Heterodox said:
Albino, your argument holds plenty of weight. But, whereas its defintely natural and instinctual for us to do the things we are born into, humanity seems to think this makes them "right."

I wouldn't really consider this the case. I think its a misconception to say "We are born into this world where everything else is killing to survive, so it must not be a bad thing..." Consider for a moment that we were born into a flawed world. Instinct is not a model of perfection.





I'm not making this an argument of right or wrong, as I personally don't believe either exist in such context. same thing for "flaw", or "perfection".. that's not the issue. you asked if anyone would like to pursue the experiment you mentioned, I said HELL NO and gave you my reason why. because self-preservation is deeply ingrained into myself and every other living thing that does, has, or will exist, because its the only reason such things exist in the first place.... I want to be alive and I could give fuckall if it's the "right" thing to do =)


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Viaggio]
    #2571907 - 04/17/04 06:31 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Doesn't the "ish" part of the word indicate a description of someone who is only "kinda full of themself?"

Hmm...ish means potential


THEY CALL ME ISH-MAEL!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Shroomism]
    #2571916 - 04/17/04 06:35 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

There is a line between selfishness for survival and selfishness that willfully harms others.

There is "a line" (objective) or a unique line (subjective) for each person on the planet?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineHeterodox
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #2572008 - 04/17/04 07:12 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Good points Albino. Noted.


Perfect imperfections.

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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Heterodox]
    #2572020 - 04/17/04 07:18 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

"Still, it would seem that to be ultimately humble, one must make the conscious decision to stop taking from this world."

I do not think living in nature and surviving in the wild is taking from the world. Our ancestors shitted out the very essence they took, restoring the cycle. Life was not always as destructive as it is now, or has been for the past 1000 years.

"In this manner I would fall aimlessly though countless realities in a sort of constantly clean, zen-like state."

I am not sure about this. I think at one point ones soul would realize ' maybe there is more to life then dying and completing the cycle, like experiencing change and evolving to something greater.

"So maybe we're all dirty, fucking disgusting selfish pigs who didn't figure out anything last go round, and continue to go with the flow this time out"

Maybe some of us. But there are many 'good' people, despite harmful things they have done in the past, their soul is still 'clean'. You make it sound like every person is evil . Although about 1/2 of people in the world are 'evil'(IMO). But I think that number is going up way to fast.

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OfflineHeterodox
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2572108 - 04/17/04 07:51 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Great reply. These are actually some of the comments I think I've been trying to find myself, in attempt to curb this thought process.

I will state, however, that I don't believe in a true good/evil. Negative and positive, perhaps, but everything is relative from its position. Even if there were some absolute "True Good" / "True Evil," change is always possible, and will always happen. For this reason, I don't believe any human or 'soul' could be truly "evil."

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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2572678 - 04/18/04 12:03 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Ayn Rand's premise for several of her books (Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead) was that man should be selfish because it benefits society. If man puts himself and his needs first, and works hard to accomplish those, he will ultimately benefit society as the product of his struggles. But I think she's talking about a "good" selfishness rather than a "bad" selfishness. Egocentricism, I think.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #2573134 - 04/18/04 03:40 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

"need" to be done for what purpose?




If a person is hungry they need to be fed. If a person is freezing they need to be warmed etc etc. If people are unable to fulfil their needs for whatever reason then it needs to be done by somebody else. These are the most simple examples obviously. But I do think its possible for people to help others out of a sense of neccesity rather than trying to generate a warm glow inside themselves!


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Always Smi2le

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