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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6205417 - 10/24/06 09:25 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

In response to

Poster: headvoid
Subject: Re: Is suicide a selfish act?

Oh, and I nearly forgot



Boning him must be considered an act of charity






Yes but she has SOO much to give.

Why think of killing yourself when there are such objects of beauty floating in space??


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Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (10/24/06 09:42 AM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: cloudtop]
    #6205626 - 10/24/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cloudtop said:
BTW, though it might be slightly off topic, I wanted to appreciate the values expressed in this thread by a number of people including especially Icelander, Huehuecoyotl, and Veritas. Here's hoping value systems such as these will one day be more widely expressed throughout all cultures and much suffering will thusly be eliminated.




Thank you. I built my ideas around this topic with the idea of supporting people in their life/death choices and recogonizing that we all have the obligation to be selfish and care for ourselves. This is IMO a healthy way to program ones self. I often would not make the choices that others do. Yet if they are not physically harming me I choose to honor their autonomy by getting out of their way with my judgements and personal demands. (that doesn't mean I won't give them my opinion but that I have no demands that they agree with it or act on it.) I can certainly take care of myself and need/want nothing that isn't freely given by others.

The kind of world I would prefer to live in is that world where we don't need to should all over each other. It's enough just to love those we choose to love exactly the way they are.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6205725 - 10/24/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I would say that making assisted suicide for someone terminally ill illegal is selfish. But the Kevorkian came along and maybe we need to have that remain illegal. Too many wackos out there.

Still, isn't it amazing how many doctors knowingly prescribe meds that they know terminally ill patients will take enough of to die? I mean I was amazed when a physician friend of mine confided to me that he does this as does his colleagues.

For the rest of us whose problems seem to overwhelm us to the point of suicide yet otherwise are healthy, I would say self indulgently stupid rather than selfish per se. I mean, it's an option but (usually) you don't get a second chance.

Then there are the people who have "tried" to kill themselves six times as they proudly show you their sliced wrists. I mean seriously, if I was going to kill myself I could think of a lot better ways than slicing wrists. Somehow a big drop off a tall building seems a lot faster and more certain.

So one asks oneself what is the "reward" for the person that "tries" to kill themself? Attention, attention, attention. Otherwise, there is no try there is only do.


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #6205744 - 10/24/06 10:55 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

there is no try there is only do.

True enough.

Like you I don't often agree with a persons choice to take their life when they are not overwhelmed with physical suffering. But in truth I can not know what they are feeling. I'm sure they choose to believe there is no other way out and often they seem to be acting in very unskillful ways. I think self-indulgent is the correct term and you nailed that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6205809 - 10/24/06 11:12 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

When in college, there were people who would jump off the bridge to their deaths 100+ feet down on the rocks. Some probably did this because they didn't make the grades needed to get into medical school or law school. Or maybe they made their first "B". It amazed me that people took school that seriously to feel that "failing" meant they needed to Gorge Out as we called it in the day. Worse, those people probably didn't say boo to anyone they just did the base jump without the parachute on that cold day in May (it was always freaking cold where I went to school and May was no exception).


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #6205838 - 10/24/06 11:22 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I like to get perspective. I noticed that everyone dies. I also noticed that most of us aren't important. :wink: We are all already dead in a way. So why fret about the circumstances? It's really unimportant. If we are no more important than anything else, which I believe; then it's only our programs that are making a big deal about an Inevitability. I think that's because our ego structure believes that it is immortal. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6205873 - 10/24/06 11:34 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I also noticed that most of us aren't important. We are all already dead in a way. So why fret about the circumstances?




I'm already dead and just waiting to get to Heaven. Other than that it's just a matter of the timing and how much BS will I choose to endure given the choice between a life of BS or the alternative. I hope it doesn't come to that but it might. I'm thinking tall building. Hey you know what would be cool, going over Niagara Falls on a raft.


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #6205893 - 10/24/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

waiting to get to Heaven.

You may have a long wait.

There is  a special place for those who shoot deer with the BB gun. :hellfire:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Basilides]
    #6205895 - 10/24/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BUT... I'm going to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that alot of people here simply do alot of trash talking in P&S. We're all guilty of it from one time to another. I think everyone here would respond to a said suicide scenario of a loved one with grief and extensive lacrimation like the rest of humanity.




The question is: did the person who committed suicide cause you to grieve, or did you react with your very own, personally-created grief response.

I, and the others who are "trash talking" (:rolleyes:), have asserted that no one causes you to feel anything.  At best, you could find a correlation between an event and your personal emotional reaction.  Correlation is NOT causation.

No one has said that they would not have an emotional reaction to a loved ones' death, by any method.  Does this mean that dying of a heart attack is selfish?  After all, they should have know that their love of deep-fried food would eventually make someone grieve.

We own our own lives, and do not owe them to anyone else, no matter how much they love us.  Perhaps it is selfish to commit suicide, but who has the right to criticize?  If someone is suffering so intensely that they no longer wish to be alive, it is selfish to demand that they live and spare you grief.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6206080 - 10/24/06 12:39 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Hope springs eternal. Deer have tough hides...

Are you saying that anyone who shoots a deer is doomed to Hell?? What of The "real" Deer Hunter?


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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OfflineAJ4U
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #6206392 - 10/24/06 01:46 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Im suidideal right now, i belief the only thing thats stopping me is the fact that if i did take my own life, my bestfriend would do the same. We keep each other alive  :thumbup:


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Edited by AJ4U (10/24/06 01:48 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: AJ4U]
    #6206542 - 10/24/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

And what is wrong with your life that you want so much to end it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6206582 - 10/24/06 02:30 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

headvoid said:
The taking of your own life is a selfish act. It is the wanton destruction of peoples lives around you. Think about it

1. You kill yourself at home - someone has to find you
2. You kill yourself by throwing yourself off a bridge - someone you dont know finds you and then you have an inquest
3. You throw yourself off a ferry - no-one finds you can you cant be declared dead for 7 years - more heartache for all.

Is there a way to do it without being selfish? I think not.

Unless anyone can come up with a better way?




Nice question..

Reminds me of the question, of one could 'take suicide' in self defence..
It being illegal some places and all!?

Write a letter that you attacked yourself, and claim you only try to defend against the attack,... Then you turn'ed' on yourself and killed the attacker...

Of free! :laugh:

:crazy2::thumbup:

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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6206619 - 10/24/06 02:37 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Speaking of grief and reaction, this brings to mind the conscious decision Robert Anton Wilson and his wife made following the murder of their daughter: They strove to follow Tim Leary's example and remain positive and strong.

By this example the expression of grief becomes a choice: One can choose, in his or her grief, to be provoked into adopting a belief system out of convenience (i.e. anger towards the killer, desire for vengeance, rage rage rage...), or one can choose to remain strong in convictions and...

shit. i gotta go to work.


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"A Bad Day for Pants"

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6206624 - 10/24/06 02:37 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Unless anyone can come up with a better way?

Smoke yourself to death. It's legal and no one will blame you because it's a socially accepted form of suicide. And you can pretend that you don't know and aren't responsible. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineAJ4U
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6206736 - 10/24/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
And what is wrong with your life that you want so much to end it?




Nothing for the first time everything is perfect, but i just cant help but feel depresse dand dont know why. I suppose theres a reason i just cant decide on what to do, i dont think i would take my life any time too soon so dont wory =)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6206813 - 10/24/06 03:22 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

The taking of your own life is a selfish act.

Yes, but...! I really have a hard time understanding those who think individuals who take their own life, or attempt to take their own life, are rotten, selfish people.

If a person feels their own life is so hopelessly worthless that it would be better to end it now rather than continue on suffering, then I have a hardtime mustering up anything other than compassion. Although there are exceptions (Ex: Suicide-bombers), few people take their own life with the intent of harming those that care for them. Some may leave suicides notes which convey this message, but ultimately they decided to commit suicide because they were in a seriously negative emotional state and saw no possibility of it ever improving.

Plus, getting angry at or chastising a person who commits suicide seems to be selfish to an absurd degree. It is their life.

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OfflineAJ4U
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6206840 - 10/24/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Sometimes people just cant get themselves out of a suicidal/depressing mind state and need a little help. Yes i could feel for the cancer patient who has a few months to live and would rather get it over with now, but i would rather try to talk someone out of it or get them to seek help before they do anything drastic.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: AJ4U]
    #6206913 - 10/24/06 03:41 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

AJ4U said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
And what is wrong with your life that you want so much to end it?




Nothing for the first time everything is perfect, but i just cant help but feel depresse dand dont know why. I suppose theres a reason i just cant decide on what to do, i dont think i would take my life any time too soon so dont wory =)




Perfect? I've never enjoyed that state of being. :wink:

so don't worry.

I won't. It wouldn't help.

Good luck, whatever you choose. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineAJ4U
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6207107 - 10/24/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I think its because i use drugs smoke pot/pop pills and in the back of my mind i know how much society looks down on drugs and the people who use them, like teachers, parents, friends and so on. Which leads me to not wanting to get help, but theres other factors besides that ( feeling good when on them/ not wanting to stop) I'v always figured the only way your gonna stop is if you wanna, and i dont but im ok with that and what people think about it :thumbup:


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