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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: SilentG]
    #6203057 - 10/23/06 06:23 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

feels for the loss of a loved one isn't something most have control over

This sounds like some BS to me. :grin:  You choose to have control or you choose not to. That's it. Just because someone is weak does not mean they don't have choice.  Just because you won't accept this doesn't mean you're right. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSapphireCat
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6203317 - 10/23/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

i've been down the same road as you cookeman, the magical little shroomies saved my life. Those evil evil things! Turn you insane they do! ^^,


--------------------
Beauty of style and harmony and grace and good rhythm depend on Simplicity ~Plato


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6203862 - 10/23/06 08:55 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

headvoid said:
The taking of your own life is a selfish act. It is the wanton destruction of peoples lives around you. Think about it

1. You kill yourself at home - someone has to find you
2. You kill yourself by throwing yourself off a bridge - someone you dont know finds you and then you have an inquest
3. You throw yourself off a ferry - no-one finds you can you cant be declared dead for 7 years - more heartache for all.

Is there a way to do it without being selfish? I think not.

Unless anyone can come up with a better way?




I'd say so. A whole lot of suiciders are so wrapped up in their own little world that they give less a shit how their self-inflicted murder will effect loved ones. Half of them don't even leave a damn note.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6203875 - 10/23/06 08:58 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
feels for the loss of a loved one isn't something most have control over

This sounds like some BS to me. :grin:  You choose to have control or you choose not to. That's it. Just because someone is weak does not mean they don't have choice.  Just because you won't accept this doesn't mean you're right. :wink:




If grief over a lost loved one is a display of lack of control, then honestly, no living human on this planet has any control whatsoever.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6204002 - 10/23/06 09:22 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
No I'm not dumb or delusional or self-indulgent about this. You choose how you will feel and no one but yourself can make you feel anything. No matter what they do. I've had this debate a dozen times.




i wholeheartedly agree. i am not saying i would be able to control my mind say, if my girlfriend was tragically killed before my eyes. but my response to that horrific scene would souly be my decision whether I was conscious of it or not.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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Offlineheadvoid
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Syle]
    #6204107 - 10/23/06 09:46 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
but my response to that horrific scene would souly be my decision whether I was conscious of it or not.




Sorry. my supposition is that you are conscious when you walk into a room and your girlfriend is swinging from a beam with her lips blue and her eyes bulging.

Are you saying you would be unconscious at that point? Or are you saying that Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is the choice of war veterans? Because that is the logical step.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6204178 - 10/23/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Perhaps "intentional" would be a better term here than "conscious."  While someone may be physically conscious, this does not mean that their knee-jerk reactions to the events of their life are intentional.

Taking full responsibility for one's reactions to events is not about becoming an emotionless robot, nor about excusing the thoughtless and obnoxious behaviors of others.  Control is not the issue--intention is.

How intentional are your responses to the events in your everyday life?  Do you often react (i.e. take action) without considering your other options?  Do you feel overwhelmed by your emotions, or do your emotional reactions eventually integrate themselves into an intentional response?  Are you creating the experience of life you wish to have?

These are the questions which can lead to some degree of personal freedom, and a sense that you are not at the mercy of your circumstances.  The goal is NOT eliminating emotions, but shaping your interaction with life.

:peace:


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Veritas]
    #6204589 - 10/23/06 11:37 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I think we're all missing the point here.

If someone doesn't react to their girlfriend swinging from a beam with blue lips and buldging eyes, well, they are either emotionless (sociopathic) or they are simply grieving the situation on a repressed, pathological spectrum.

BUT... I'm going to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that alot of people here simply do alot of trash talking in P&S. We're all guilty of it from one time to another. I think everyone here would respond to a said suicide scenario of a loved one with grief and extensive lacrimation like the rest of humanity.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Basilides]
    #6204819 - 10/24/06 12:37 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Just look at the name 'ICE'lander. I'm pure black ice myself. I don't get very emotional about anything. I am emotionally independent of most people. Meaning I don't rely on anyone emotionally to provide any meaning to my life. If a girl was swinging from a beam I'd probably laugh if I was fucked up. In fact that sounds kinda funny right now. And you all are probably thinking what a sick twisted dude. But who doesn't enjoy a good horror flick.


Edited by capliberty (10/24/06 04:29 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: capliberty]
    #6205100 - 10/24/06 04:43 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I'm pure black ice myself. I don't get very emotional about anything. I am emotionally independent of most people. Meaning I don't rely on anyone emotionally to provide any meaning to my life. If a girl was swinging from a beam I'd probably laugh if I was fucked up. In fact that sounds kinda funny right now. And you all are probably thinking what a sick twisted dude.




That is how I used to see myself. I ended up with borderline schizoid tendencies. I experienced an inability to express myself, and had severe depression that manifested itself as severe anger. I was permanently pissed off for over a decade. Having the cold mentality may seem useful at times, but it is a major block to personal power. I refused to put myself out there and get emotionally involved in the world out of fear and alienation. Speaking of suicide...such an attitude could become a fast track to extinction.

Quote:

You don't know me from the wind
you never will, you never did
I'm the little Jew
who wrote the Bible
I've seen the nations rise and fall
I've heard their stories, heard them all
but love's the only engine of survival --Leonard Cohen




--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (10/24/06 04:51 AM)


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6205148 - 10/24/06 06:20 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Personal power, sounds interesting. I hope its not anything related to Tony Robbins, the guys a fraud.

I don't see myself detached, cold or inexpressive per se.

I just have a certain demeanor, in which its reserved, inquisitive, controlled, rational and deliberate. Much of this is facilitated by being such a pothead, but I like being somewhat indifferent. That is what herb does, make people indifferent to situations by showing them a different prospective than run of the mill sober prospective.

Partly it subverts your tendencies to react to the world impulsively and gives you that delayed prospective to choose a more preferable path. Also I don't really think me being who I am is a denial complex, but rather something that I've been accustomed and acclimated to over the years not being around that many people that I consider somewhat significant. Being a solo soldier and not depending on anyone for emotional support is a result of my surroundings rather than an instilled attitude. I guess some people can hack it and some people blow their heads off with 45 caliber, or whatever in being this way. To me its natural.


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Offlineheadvoid
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Registered: 10/23/06
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: capliberty]
    #6205263 - 10/24/06 07:55 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

capliberty said:
But who doesn't enjoy a good horror flick.




Yeh, that's right. I love to get some popcorn and watch my sister swing from a beam with blue lips and her eyes popping out. It's a blast.

What is wrong with you people? some of you are basically saying that if you saw said blue lipped girl you could detach yourself from this entirely and not let it touch you.

Do you lot have night vision goggles and a deep basement? You are all so far down your own navels you can see your arsehole. Start telling the truth or at least debate this sensibly.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Basilides]
    #6205283 - 10/24/06 08:12 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

headvoid said:
The taking of your own life is a selfish act. It is the wanton destruction of peoples lives around you. Think about it

1. You kill yourself at home - someone has to find you
2. You kill yourself by throwing yourself off a bridge - someone you dont know finds you and then you have an inquest
3. You throw yourself off a ferry - no-one finds you can you cant be declared dead for 7 years - more heartache for all.

Is there a way to do it without being selfish? I think not.

Unless anyone can come up with a better way?




I'd say so. A whole lot of suiciders are so wrapped up in their own little world that they give less a shit how their self-inflicted murder will effect loved ones. Half of them don't even leave a damn note.




And so many "loved ones" are so completely self centered and selfish that they think they need to control every one elses life by guilt tripping them. Most people don't leave a note because they  don't even like their "loved ones". :wink: Most "loved ones" care more about themselves than anyone else and that is the real truth here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Basilides]
    #6205287 - 10/24/06 08:16 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
feels for the loss of a loved one isn't something most have control over

This sounds like some BS to me. :grin:  You choose to have control or you choose not to. That's it. Just because someone is weak does not mean they don't have choice.  Just because you won't accept this doesn't mean you're right. :wink:




If grief over a lost loved one is a display of lack of control, then honestly, no living human on this planet has any control whatsoever.




Who said anything about grief and lack of control? You can grieve without trying to control anyone else. You sure like to twist things. :tongue:  You miss the point completely. :thumbdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Basilides]
    #6205297 - 10/24/06 08:22 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

BUT... I'm going to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that alot of people here simply do alot of trash talking in P&S. We're all guilty of it from one time to another. I think everyone here would respond to a said suicide scenario of a loved one with grief and extensive lacrimation like the rest of humanity.

Once again you miss the point by a mile. Yes most would grieve and that is a choice. I would grieve if my friend or lover killed them self. I would also understand that they knew best and it was their choice alone and I had no right to expect them to fulfill my desires over their own. That would be incredibly selfish and unconscious. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: headvoid]
    #6205306 - 10/24/06 08:28 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

headvoid said:
Quote:

capliberty said:
But who doesn't enjoy a good horror flick.




Yeh, that's right. I love to get some popcorn and watch my sister swing from a beam with blue lips and her eyes popping out. It's a blast.

What is wrong with you people? some of you are basically saying that if you saw said blue lipped girl you could detach yourself from this entirely and not let it touch you.

Do you lot have night vision goggles and a deep basement? You are all so far down your own navels you can see your arsehole. Start telling the truth or at least debate this sensibly.




I think what we are talking about is do people have a right to be selfish with their own life. Everything else is besides the point and emotional grandstanding IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6205326 - 10/24/06 08:38 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

My next door neighbor who was a friend of sorts killed himself in my driveway.

Here's what I felt. I felt sorry that he felt so bad that life held no joy and he was suffering in his mind. At no time did I feel he didn't have the right to make that decision or that it was in any way a problem for me.

If it was a very close loved one I would feel the exact same way except I would grieve more.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblecloudtop
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: Icelander]
    #6205342 - 10/24/06 08:46 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Absolutely suicide is selfish -- as are all actions. The hope, of course, is that it is a fully intentional and aware action, just as I think is the hope for all actions because of the insight that knowledge reduces suffering. If one is concerned about reducing potential impact of one's actions in relation to loved ones, communication is key. Specifically, discussing the possibility before the fact can reduce shock that prevents people from rationally comprehending the act, its details, and the loss of connection that goes along with it.

And yes, people feel things of their own accord. Grieving is a natural process to assist a person in comprehending loss, but the quality of the grief is obviously going to be different from person to person.

Any person who avoids taking their life for fear of how it'll affect others once they are gone doesn't deserve the beauty of a life of self-value. Likely they'll develop resentment towards those whom they felt obligated to.


--------------------
peacefromabovecloudtop



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: cloudtop]
    #6205350 - 10/24/06 08:50 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Yes indeed. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblecloudtop
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Re: Is suicide a selfish act? [Re: cloudtop]
    #6205370 - 10/24/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

BTW, though it might be slightly off topic, I wanted to appreciate the values expressed in this thread by a number of people including especially Icelander, Huehuecoyotl, and Veritas. Here's hoping value systems such as these will one day be more widely expressed throughout all cultures and much suffering will thusly be eliminated.


--------------------
peacefromabovecloudtop



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