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Shop: Myyco.com APE Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: GazzBut]
    #2571302 -

from my perspective it always seems that people want to help others in order to be a "good" person. ego-boosting. even though there are no tangible gains by helping others, they do gain a sense of self-satisfaction. even that is a selfish motive, though it's not a "greedy" motive.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2571373 -

Lately I've been batting around the idea that existance as we know it is a form of selfishness.

By simply choosing to consciously exist in this paradigm of life we are constantly taking and devouring from the external world around us. Life feeds on life, etc. Even by sucking in the surrounding oxygen we are making a choice to affect the world (for better or worse) to sustain life for one additional breath. Is this not the epitomy of selfishness?

But, of coure, this is a very one-dimensional point of view. It doesn't figure in, for instance, how our continued existance could result in positive (selfLESS) actions, thus balancing the equation.

Still, it would seem that to be ultimately humble, one must make the conscious decision to stop taking from this world. To simply allow oneself to die. Perhaps it is in this "non-action" that we would truly find ourselves - and the accompanying happiness.

Anyone willing to document this experiment and let us know how it turns out?

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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Heterodox]
    #2571384 -

Heterodox said:
Still, it would seem that to be ultimately humble, one must make the conscious decision to stop taking from this world. To simply allow oneself to die. Perhaps it is in this "non-action" that we would truly find ourselves - and the accompanying happiness.

Anyone willing to document this experiment and let us know how it turns out?


well, frankly, NO.
every living being in existence has one major goal - self preservation. selfishness. we all exist to live long enough to replicate ourselves. and living your life and behaving in a way which will always, ultimately seem selfish can't really be considered all that bad... the only other option is suicide... and I'd rather, um, be alive. it's like, instinctual and shit, ya dig?  :tongue:


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2571388 -

self-ISH-ness

Doesn't the "ish" part of the word indicate a description of someone who is only "kinda full of themself?"

Hmm...ish means potential  :yesnod:


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #2571404 -

I think it is possible to move past the ego-reward reason for doing "good" acts and simply do them out of a sense of knowing that they need to be done.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: GazzBut]
    #2571459 -

GazzBut said:
I think it is possible to move past the ego-reward reason for doing "good" acts and simply do them out of a sense of knowing that they need to be done.



"need" to be done for what purpose?


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2571596 -

There is a line between selfishness for survival and selfishness that willfully harms others.


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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Shroomism]
    #2571674 -

There is a line between selfishness for survival and selfishness that willfully harms others.

Not in a fight.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Sclorch]
    #2571691 -

Indeed.  :yesnod:


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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #2571711 -

Albino, your argument holds plenty of weight. But, whereas its defintely natural and instinctual for us to do the things we are born into, humanity seems to think this makes them "right."

I wouldn't really consider this the case. I think its a misconception to say "We are born into this world where everything else is killing to survive, so it must not be a bad thing..." Consider for a moment that we were born into a flawed world. Instinct is not a model of perfection. In fact, consider that the selfish nature of man (to consume and replicate) is indeed how you and I got here (selfish consuming and replicating parents).

And in the same vein of thought... "the only other option is suicide"

Choosing not to participate in the cycle of selfishness is far from suicide in my opinion. That is to say, the universe will inevitably kill you, and merely letting it do so (rather than putting up a fight for 80 years) is indirectly harming yourself at best. Physically controlling an object (including your body) with the intention of lethally harming yourself is suicide. Note: there is definately a difference between controlling and choosing NOT to control. I note this to discredit the idea that "letting yourself die would be physically controlling your body to instigate your own death," or similar arguments. In reality it is the absence of control, and the world is doing the killing.

Once again though, this all is obviously a bit narrow and elitist (if not just downright negative). It's as if I'm saying the secret to life is death. Despite how romantic that sounds, I'm not sure I'm ready to stop breathing. I've tried to sort of metathink on this path of thoughts. I envisioned myself choosing to die in this world, and upon "opening my eyes" in the next world (whatever that paradigm of existance might be), simply letting myself die again. In this manner I would fall aimlessly though countless realities in a sort of constantly clean, zen-like state.

That string of logic seemed flawwed, however, as I soon realized that babies do not have the intelligence to choose non-action as a rebellion to selfishness. Of course, maybe I'm wrong about that too. Maybe if a cleansed and selfLESS soul of someone who'd chosen death through non-action in another world were to inhabit a baby in this one, it would subconsciously choose to die. Could this be the reason behind unexplained stillbirths? Its as if they'd open their eyes (or EYE) and say "Whoa whoa man...fuck this place, I'm out!"

So maybe we're all dirty, fucking disgusting selfish pigs who didn't figure out anything last go round, and continue to go with the flow this time out?



So, please don't take any of that too seriously. Its all just a bunch of pondering and metathinking on a subject I feel we have no answer for. I don't particularly believe in anything I mentioned (souls, multiple reality/existance paradigms, evolving from each "life's" experiences, etc), but I don't disbelieve them either. Let's just say I'd love for them to be true.


Oh, and GazzBut seems to be referring to the primary belief of existentialists - that there is an obvious and innate responsibility for every conscious living thing to contribute positively to the world it resides in. I'm quite a fan of this train of thought...kind of like a spiritual "common sense." (We're supposed to do good things? Duh.)

Dictionary.com, existentialist:
A philosophy that emphasizes the uniqueness and isolation of the individual experience in a hostile or indifferent universe, regards human existence as unexplainable, and stresses freedom of choice and responsibility for the consequences of one's acts.

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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Heterodox]
    #2571848 -

Quote:
Heterodox said:
Albino, your argument holds plenty of weight. But, whereas its defintely natural and instinctual for us to do the things we are born into, humanity seems to think this makes them "right."

I wouldn't really consider this the case. I think its a misconception to say "We are born into this world where everything else is killing to survive, so it must not be a bad thing..." Consider for a moment that we were born into a flawed world. Instinct is not a model of perfection.




I'm not making this an argument of right or wrong, as I personally don't believe either exist in such context. same thing for "flaw", or "perfection".. that's not the issue. you asked if anyone would like to pursue the experiment you mentioned, I said HELL NO and gave you my reason why. because self-preservation is deeply ingrained into myself and every other living thing that does, has, or will exist, because its the only reason such things exist in the first place.... I want to be alive and I could give fuckall if it's the "right" thing to do =)


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Viaggio]
    #2571907 -

Doesn't the "ish" part of the word indicate a description of someone who is only "kinda full of themself?"

Hmm...ish means potential

THEY CALL ME ISH-MAEL!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Shroomism]
    #2571916 -

There is a line between selfishness for survival and selfishness that willfully harms others.

There is "a line" (objective) or a unique line (subjective) for each person on the planet?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #2572008 -

Good points Albino. Noted.


Perfect imperfections.

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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Heterodox]
    #2572020 -

"Still, it would seem that to be ultimately humble, one must make the conscious decision to stop taking from this world."

I do not think living in nature and surviving in the wild is taking from the world. Our ancestors shitted out the very essence they took, restoring the cycle. Life was not always as destructive as it is now, or has been for the past 1000 years.

"In this manner I would fall aimlessly though countless realities in a sort of constantly clean, zen-like state."

I am not sure about this. I think at one point ones soul would realize ' maybe there is more to life then dying and completing the cycle, like experiencing change and evolving to something greater.

"So maybe we're all dirty, fucking disgusting selfish pigs who didn't figure out anything last go round, and continue to go with the flow this time out"

Maybe some of us. But there are many 'good' people, despite harmful things they have done in the past, their soul is still 'clean'. You make it sound like every person is evil . Although about 1/2 of people in the world are 'evil'(IMO). But I think that number is going up way to fast.

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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2572108 -

Great reply. These are actually some of the comments I think I've been trying to find myself, in attempt to curb this thought process.

I will state, however, that I don't believe in a true good/evil. Negative and positive, perhaps, but everything is relative from its position. Even if there were some absolute "True Good" / "True Evil," change is always possible, and will always happen. For this reason, I don't believe any human or 'soul' could be truly "evil."

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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Swami]
    #2572678 -

Ayn Rand's premise for several of her books (Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead) was that man should be selfish because it benefits society. If man puts himself and his needs first, and works hard to accomplish those, he will ultimately benefit society as the product of his struggles. But I think she's talking about a "good" selfishness rather than a "bad" selfishness. Egocentricism, I think.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Selfishness is Good [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #2573134 -

Quote:
"need" to be done for what purpose?



If a person is hungry they need to be fed. If a person is freezing they need to be warmed etc etc. If people are unable to fulfil their needs for whatever reason then it needs to be done by somebody else. These are the most simple examples obviously. But I do think its possible for people to help others out of a sense of neccesity rather than trying to generate a warm glow inside themselves!


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Always Smi2le

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