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Invisiblemycofile
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Bulk Neglect Report *completed*
    #609532 - 04/16/02 01:00 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Bear with me while this is a work in progress...



All the information below is an account of a particular adventure in mycology. None of it is recommended as the ideal, only a fictional account of how things can go. For example, peroxide is used in the grains even though it probably wasn?t required. It was simply to hedge the bets on the grain-to-grain transfers. As should be noted, the experimenter in this case was rather experienced, although an intermediate beginner with a head on his/her shoulders shouldn?t have much trouble with similar things.



A long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, a tenacious mycophile tried to push the envelope of massive simplicity in bulk fruiting environments. At a point before our pictorial feast, we begin with a spore syringe of Psilocybe cubensis, Hawaiian strain. The syringe is used to inoculate birdseed. The birdseed spawns synthetic compost. The most charismatic fruit body is selected to continue its existence through the marvel of cloning. The rest of her life is the subject at hand.

Cloning

Harvest day for our main lady is a busy time. As such, a chunk is cut from inside her stem near the base. The chunk is rinsed in 3% H2O2, and placed in a small jar containing sterile distilled water and peroxide (roughly .0015% H2O2). A filter disc in the lid of the jar allows the gasses produced by the peroxide to be vented. The jar is left at room temperature until the initial harvest, drying and bio assaying are completed. A period of roughly 2 weeks passes. Peroxidated MEA is prepared in the standard manner. Peroxide concentration is on the higher end of the recommended levels. The chunk is removed from the jar and placed on the agar. The plate is mostly colonized in a week and a half with temps hovering near 70 deg F.

Spawn

A quart of birdseed spawn is selected from several prepared in the following manner. Birdseed rinsed clean several times in cold water (which btw removes a lot of sunflower seeds if you aren?t careful, or want it to, sunflower seeds float and are easily poured off from the rest of the BS). Boil an excess of water first. Reduce heat once boiling. Seed is simmered on low for 30 minutes (no more since we will be adding peroxide later and don?t want too much moisture). The grain is strained, rinsed and dried thoroughly before being loaded into the quart jar, ? full. The lid has a filter disc in it, but polyfill, or even coffee filters or cardboard can be substituted since we will be adding peroxide later. The jar is pressure cooked to sterilize and also destroy peroxide decomposing enzymes. When cool, the quart is injected with 12 cc?s peroxide, shaken and inoculated in front of a flow hood with a piece of the peroxidated agar. Colonization is complete in a week with temps around 80 deg F. A huge filter patch bag is prepared with birdseed as above. Peroxide amount is proportional to that listed above. In the flow hood, the bag is inoculated with the colonized quart jar and sealed with an impulse sealer. The bag is colonized in 11 days at room temps.

Bulk Substrate Prep

A large trashcan is loaded with straw and aged cow dung appearing to be about 75% straw 25% dung by volume. A pillowcase with extra dung is put on top of mixture and weighted with a cinder block. The thermostat on the hot-water heater is turned up as high as it goes, 160 deg F. The trashcan is placed in a bathtub and filled to the cinder block with the now very hot tap water. Enough boiling water from a pot on the stove is poured into the trashcan to bring the temp up to 175 deg F according to a thermometer in the can. The lid is placed on the trashcan and allowed to sit for 45 minutes, at which time the water has cooled to only about 155 deg F. Big ass heat resistant gloves are worn, and the trashcan is inverted carefully for draining, not allowing any substrate to escape the can. The can is left inverted to drain overnight.

Spawning bulk sub

The cooled dung/straw is mixed with the bag of grain spawn and put into the fruiting container. Fruiting container is a big cardboard box a little bigger than 2? square and about 8 inches deep, lined with several layers of plastic bags. The extra dung from the pillowcase is mixed with the remaining grain spawn and layered about ? inch deep on top. The dung top layer helps to protect the straw from contams and moisture loss. Often large chunks of casing are removed with fruits, exposing the substrate below. With straw becoming exposed, this can be a bigger problem than if dung gets exposed.

Spawn Run

A perforated plastic sheet is laid over the box for colonization, as shown below. The mixture colonizes quickly due to the dung and the large amount of spawn.









Casing

A casing of 25% verm and 75% coco coir (by volume) is prepared as follows. The verm is baked in an over for 30 minutes at 200 ish. The coir is hydrated in a bowl with boiling hot water. The two are mixed, a dash of lime is added to bring the pH to about 7.8 and the mixture is hydrated to field capacity. The casing mixture colonizes rapidly as is the norm with coir, but retains moisture much better than coir alone. The same perforated plastic from spawn run is used to cover the box during casing run.







Fruiting

The plastic is removed only once a day to expose the mycelium to light and to mist with tap water. The plastic is left off for only a few minutes after misting to allow the moisture to absorb. Pins show in a few days. Once pins are noticed, care is taken to not disturb them with the plastic. It is only loosely draped over the box.

















The daily (actually sometimes only every few days) misting and lighting continues while fruits mature. A few spots show a little tiny bit of overlay, and some casing is applied. Pin set is acceptably even. Note that absolutely no attention was paid to environmental parameters other than the sheet, the misting and occasional light when the box was checked on. The box simply sat on the dirty floor of a well-used closet, and enjoyed typical room temperatures.

















The caps seemed to be rather light for the strain, likely attributable to the lack of light exposure. And of course all fruits were harvested before committing the sin of over maturation. (My humble opinion only of course). A tip is to water the casing surface just before harvest. This helps to minimize the chunks of casing that are pulled up with the fruits if the casing has dried out.











Nearly all fruits weighed in at roughly 30-50 grams wet, of course some heavier, some of the few aborts were lighter. total yield for first flush was 8 oz dry. Very similar 2nd and 3rd flushes followed, each with even less time being covered by the plastic sheet. For each harvest, everything large enough to be harvested without touching the casing was removed. Then a light sprinkling of casing mixture was sprinkled over the surface and used to fill the divits left from harvesting shrooms.

Repeat Experiment

This experiment was repeated several months later to prove it wasn?t a fluke. This time, a different strain was used and one of the boxes was only half filled.



Some random second or third flush shrooms show that dung/straw can make some downright humongus fruits, even if you don?t take special care of it.



And this proves that I occasionaly missed the perfect harvest time and accidentally let a fruit mature.



YMMV, enjoy


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Edited by mycofile (06/19/02 04:33 AM)


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Invisiblesloluva
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609542 - 04/16/02 01:07 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I guess this answers my question as to whether you were done with this, eh?

Thanks Myco, can?t wait to look this over. Thanks for taking the time to do this for all of us!

Peas,

Slo



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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609545 - 04/16/02 01:10 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Wow! mycofile, thank you so much for doing this!

This thread should be put in a special place, you truly are a talented cultivator.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Thor]
    #609561 - 04/16/02 01:28 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

That wasn?t as painful as I expected. Thanks for the kind words. Unfortunately, I?m not a skilled cultivator though. I WAS is more accurate. This just makes me miss it all the more, but hopefully others can learn from it, that?s why I still post. BTW, contrary to what many people think a person would do with that much fruit, that much yield might allow a person to quit growing for a very long time if one were inclined to store them dried and sealed under co2 in a friends spare fridge... 2 years later they might still be pretty good.
One needn?t be a dealer to want so much fruit, one might just not be interested in having an ongoing manufacturing crime being committed. Growing is fun, but peace of mind is a lot more fun.
Good night.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineALHOFF177A17
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Thor]
    #609565 - 04/16/02 01:33 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Absolutely the best thank you indeed. Very good job skywalker. I have never seen a shroom that was a foot tall...


--------------------
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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: ALHOFF177A17]
    #609598 - 04/16/02 02:19 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

That?s really something. Great accomplishment. It blows me away how nice they look for not being in a terrarium!


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OfflinePavlovs Dog
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609610 - 04/16/02 02:38 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Holy cowshit! Mycophile thats the largest bensis cap I have ever seen... even in the wild

Do it once, do it right you have the idea my freind!




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OfflineMyceliumcake
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Pavlovs Dog]
    #609618 - 04/16/02 02:52 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Absolutly amazing.
WOW!
I am very glad I ran into this thread.


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OfflineMyceliumcake
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609623 - 04/16/02 03:01 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I would like to know the signifigance in the h2o2.
What I mean is, when clonging, is it neccessary to soak the chunk?
And why did you want to "push the h202 envelope?"


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Invisiblemrdasani
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609781 - 04/16/02 08:57 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I have a three questions Mycofile:

1) Once you finished preparing the bulk substrate and spawned it with the grain, how long did it take for the substrate to fully colonize?

2) Would it be possible to use jars of colonized brown rice flour/vermiculite as a spawn as a replacement for the birdseed?

3) There is concern of a moisture level in the preparing bulk substrate step. I understand that the water would be drained out from the trash can after pastuerising the substrate, but wouldn?t adding too much water ruin the dung?s nutrient level? [specifically, how much water was added from the hot tap water to the trash can? how about the hot water from the pot?]


This was a great example of a simple bulk tek. Mycofile, you are a true pioneer for amateurs.



--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


Edited by mrdasani (04/16/02 09:19 AM)


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OfflineParticleMan
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609863 - 04/16/02 11:26 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

very nice myco!!! would you mind taking a humidity reading from the room you are working in? this is really cool and it would be nice to have the reading so the same arguments about the SOS would not come up. Everyone always speculates at the room humidity used in that document, well i thought it would be a nice addition to this one. congrats again, and good luck in whatever ventures you pick up to fill in all the extra time you have now :-)


--------------------
___________________________________________________________
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InvisibleDreaMaTrix
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609877 - 04/16/02 11:49 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

WOW!!!!
A truly awesome post!!!!
This should be put in a new forum, called: tek or grow log.

EXCELLENT!!!!!

BTW. What was potency like on them large beasts??

Good luck



--------------------





"We are the one's we have been waiting for" - Hopi saying


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: DreaMaTrix]
    #609945 - 04/16/02 01:04 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

OK, let?s keep this in thread form until all questions have been answered. Then I can make a final draft with all the answers included. Let?s see:
In reply to:

I would like to know the signifigance in the h2o2.
What I mean is, when clonging, is it neccessary to soak the chunk?
And why did you want to "push the h202 envelope?"



H2O2 is used to protect the grains. It?s use would allow one to not use a flow hood or filter discs in the jars, having both, I used them anyway. In this case the peroxide simply added another layer of protection, especially since grain to grain transfers are more risky than other types of innoculation. It was used with the mycelium sample because a) the chunk was non-sterile b) it was put in the sterile jar of water in an open-air non-sterile environment and c) I knew it would be stored for a little while before use. I wasn?t pushing the H2O2 envelope, did I say that? I was pushing the simplicity envelope. H2O2 just hedged the bets, simple is no good if it?s not effective.
In reply to:

1) Once you finished preparing the bulk substrate and spawned it with the grain, how long did it take for the substrate to fully colonize?



Colonization time was just over a week. I?m glad youi asked though, I forgot about an important detail of the first tray. It sat for over a week after it was fully colonized, it over colonized. When it was cased, the surface was covered in the nasty yellow jelly that gets exuded. Some say this jelly is a metabolic product produced by the fungi (as seen in over-incubated jars) and it just gets produced more quickly when cubes eat dung. Others have speculated that it is actually material that is pushed out of the dung by the mycelium. I?d have to do some more research to determine which I believe, read around if you are interested.
In reply to:

2) Would it be possible to use jars of colonized brown rice flour/vermiculite as a spawn as a replacement for the birdseed?



Certainly. I will mention however that by volume, whole grains are much more nutritious than a cake which is mostly verm. An abundance of cakes used as spawn would ensure that the nutrient base of the straw is boosted just as it would be by whole grains. I?m not really sure at what level you will run into problems though. I only did once when a single BRF cake was used to innoculate a massive area of straw. This is only possible by grinding the cake as described by a few people over the years, but never really popularized. I believe a cat name old timer pushes this method. Best of both worlds is to innoculate with both grain spawn and a ground PF style cake or two. Colonization will be complete in just a few days and you will still get the nutrient reserve of the grains.
In reply to:

3) There is concern of a moisture level in the preparing bulk substrate step. I understand that the water would be drained out from the trash can after pastuerising the substrate, but wouldn?t adding too much water ruin the dung?s nutrient level? [specifically, how much water was added from the hot tap water to the trash can? how about the hot water from the pot?



No concern here actually. Dung, unlike castings are actually fine if not better once they have been leached like this. Cubes like the solids in dung, the un and under digested straw/hay whatever. These solids won?t wash away in solution like the much more soluble worm poo which is diluted in undesirable solid bedding material. But to answer the question anyway, specifically I can?t give you a measurement. Proportionally though it was enough to fill the can to just over the block holding the dung/straw down, and a large pot of boiling water over that. I guess the water level was a good 5 inches or so above the level of the substrate. Again I don?t think this matters at all.
In reply to:

would you mind taking a humidity reading from the room you are working in?



Can?t do it, I don?t live there anymore. I?ll check the book to be sure, but as I recall ambient rH was generally in the 30s-40ish range for the first experiment and higher (60s-80s) for the next two. Folks in the mid or soutwest will need to keep the sheet on most of the time if you want to try this. Again, use common sense to address any issues which come up, this isn?t a tek it?s a grow log.
In reply to:

BTW. What was potency like on them large beasts??



IME, maturity is the one thing which affects potency the most, not size. A closed cap shroom the size of your head will be as potent as the same strain grown in a manner to produce a closed cap the size of your pinky. So if you are referring to the mature beasts, they aren?t as potent as the large closed caps, and the large closed caps aren?t as potent as the aborts. They are relative to shrooms at similar maturity levels from different cultivation methods. Remember, the same thing applies to which flush the fruits came from. Total psilo potency as well as ratios of cin to cybin varry from flush to flush. You can?t compare first flush fruits to 4th flush fruits without getting apples to oranges anomalies, which most people will contribute to fruit size, rather than flush number.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Edited by mycofile (04/16/02 01:19 PM)


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OfflineAlpheratus
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #610216 - 04/16/02 07:24 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

how deep are those caseings?
and approx. how much, in volume, of dung/straw did you use?


--------------------
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Invisiblerebelmoon
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #610220 - 04/14/02 03:55 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

hi myco. some more questions here for you...

"The jar is left at room temperature until the initial harvest, drying and bio assaying are completed. A period of roughly 2 weeks passes."

is this your neglect or is there another reason it sat so long?

"The jar is pressure cooked to sterilize and also destroy peroxide decomposing enzymes."

does this work for any substrate (such as rye for example)? i know i could check rush waynes manual but im lazy...

"The two are mixed, a dash of lime is added to bring the pH to about 7.8 ..."

two questions. did you use limestone flour (stamets recommended, commercial standard) or hydrated lime (popularized by ryche hawk and debatably inferior)? isnt the optimum pH lower than that? why use it at all? is it because the pH decreases with each successive flush and you wanted to get your fifth flush?s worth?

awesome writeup and pics. i wish there was a forum or subforum for these...


--------------------
"habit is the ballast that chains the dog to its vomit" - s beckett


Edited by rebelmoon (04/14/02 03:56 PM)


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OfflineChemical_Smile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #610457 - 04/14/02 09:40 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for a great post. You have realy got me inspired with this one.


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OfflineTC
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #610516 - 04/14/02 11:19 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

That is inspiring. Thanks myco!

later
TC~~out


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: TC]
    #610733 - 04/17/02 12:18 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

how deep are those caseings?



first one is rather shallow for the amount of substrate, about 3/4 inch. The others were an inch or 1.25 inches.
In reply to:

and approx. how much, in volume, of dung/straw did you use?



Considering the substrate is about 6 inches deep and 2 feet by 2 feet, I think that is pretty close to 2 cubic feet of straw and dung. If you are wanting to know how much dry substrate to use, use a little more because you compress it in the tray before adding the top layer of dung. I think I left that out of the original post, I?ll add it later. Compress the dung straw as much as you can by hand, then add the top dung layer. You can just eyeball the dry amounts, if you make too much you can use it for something else or just throw it in your compost pile or trash, if you make too little, you just won?t fill the tray as deeply. I think that?s what happened to the tray in the foreground of the two tray picture, ran out of substrate. It?s first 3 flushes were very comparable to the deeper trays, any difference came out in the wash.
In reply to:

"The jar is left at room temperature until the initial harvest, drying and bio assaying are completed. A period of roughly 2 weeks passes." is this your neglect or is there another reason it sat so long?



My neglect, if you call it that. Harvest time is a busy time. There are fruits to harvest and clean, drying to be done and journeys to take. So, there is no benefit to the fungus to letting it sit other than allowing one to not neglect more important things like cleaning and drying fruits.
In reply to:

"The jar is pressure cooked to sterilize and also destroy peroxide decomposing enzymes." does this work for any substrate (such as rye for example)?



Yes it does. Pressure cooking destroys the enzymes in all substrates which break down peroxide. Peroxide can be added to any substrate (agar, grain, flour mixes etc) after these enzymes have been dealt with. And you?ve got to pressure cook grain no matter how you slice the pie. After this log is completed, I?ll do a detailed posts for peroxide agar as well as peroxide grain.
In reply to:

"The two are mixed, a dash of lime is added to bring the pH to about 7.8 ..." two questions. did you use limestone flour (stamets recommended, commercial standard) or hydrated lime (popularized by ryche hawk and debatably inferior)? isnt the optimum pH lower than that? why use it at all? is it because the pH decreases with each successive flush and you wanted to get your fifth flush?s worth?



Bag from nursery/walmart etc simply labled "lime" and mentioning something about magnessium content being lower than such and such (3% maybe? I really don?t know). I wasn?t shooting for optimum pH to be honest. I eyeballed the lime, then figured I?d test it to make sure it was somewhere close. The reading seemed entirely suitable, so it was left where it was. Why use it at all is because I had a bag. In years of cultivation I never finished up the smallest size bag they sell. Also because coir based casings are slightly acidic. Sure they work without modification, but why not hedge the bets if it?s cheap and easy to do so? Contams favor acidic environments. Cubes favor slightly basic casings. I?m trying to supress my perfectionist attitude which would normally tell people to go for optimums. In the real world, the optimum is slightly basic, any more perfection than that comes out in the wash, meaning benefits are not noticed due to slight detriments from something else you slightly bunged up. pH does decrease with time, but in reality, who cares? Who would really need a fifth or even 7th flush when yields are this high? More importantly is to hedge the bets against contams by making the soil slightly basic, which contams don?t really love and which mycelium does, therefore growing faster. More important than modifying the pH though is the addition of the verm to the coir, preventing the coir from drying out as quickly as it does, especially when it doesn?t have a terrerium protecting it.

Hope this all helps


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #610762 - 04/17/02 12:53 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I Dont want to be picky but the enzymes would still actually be there except they will be inert. But Still great job


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InvisibleBeautifulDay
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #610772 - 04/17/02 01:01 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Great work mycofile, I?m very impressed with your simple and straightforward methodology. The only question I have is: where did you get your dung? Did you gather it or did you buy it from a nursery?
Thanks for the inspiration!
Ciao,
BeautifulDay


--------------------
The thin line between genius and insanity is known only by those who cross it.


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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Agar, Brown Rice Flour, Coir, Impulse Sealer, Laminar Flow Hood, Malt Extract, Paul Stamets, Rye Grain, Vermiculite, Wild Bird Seed, pH Test Strips

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation >> Mushroom Cultivation Archive >> Substrates

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