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InvisibleBeautifulDay
BlingBling
Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 36
Loc: SinCity
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #631621 - 05/15/02 08:32 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

So has anyone else tried this? This has been one of the most popular posts in this forum for weeks now, and I see lots of questions and kudos but dont tell me that my FOAF is the first to attempt to replicate!!! Pics will be posted in a few weeks.... anyone want to race?
Ciao,
BeautifulDay


--------------------
The thin line between genius and insanity is known only by those who cross it.


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OfflineShroomasta
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 23
Last seen: 20 years, 4 months
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: BeautifulDay]
    #632090 - 05/16/02 01:51 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

one of my friends has tried to replicate this and came into great contam problems. He believes that it might have been due to pasteurization issues, but he never even got to case it. The initial colonization of the straw/dung killed the boxes he was trying. Maybe later on he will try again. Any other experiences?


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Posts: 7,264
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Shroomasta]
    #632214 - 05/16/02 03:24 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

A dude of mine has about 20 boxes (2 1/2? X 2 1/2? X 6") and 40 trays (1 1/2? X 2 1/2? X 4") in a growroom, using pretty much all the same method as Mycotek, cept not using the top plastic for retaining the humidity in. Things are going well. Casing will be added within the next 48 hours as the manure/straw mixture has been well established.

Another experiment has been with just using a rubbermaid container with 2 (3" diameter) holes filled with polyfill. This has been working well. I think Ive seen it done here before.

You ran into contams basically because you were probably not careful enough with the dung mixture, as it does contam somewhat easily. Pasturization could be a problem of course

I?m trying to get some pics soon. Will post when ready. Im guessing in the next week or so.



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OfflineAngel_Magic79
HOT DIGGITY DOG
Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 119
Loc: Siberia
Last seen: 20 years, 1 day
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: angryshroom]
    #632317 - 05/16/02 05:51 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Say your using a rubbermaid container with 7in base substrate & 2in casing layer with coolmist pumping in fresh air right over substrate & filter holes on the other side at a height 1/2 in above where the casing is- would you get proper air exchange without having to worry about Co2 build up?


--------------------
ShroomChicks WANTED!!!
Preferably 18 to 21 years old.
Brunett & AVERAGE weight(I Stress)!!!
Please PM me with a current PIC!
Yours truly Mr. Angel- AKA. MOJO MAN
***FEMALES ONLY***


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 8 months, 10 days
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Angel_Magic79]
    #632548 - 05/16/02 01:19 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

You will want to drill several small drain holes into the bottom of the rubbermaid container. The holes allow any carbon dioxide gas or excess water trapped in the substrate to drain out the bottom. Without the holes, even with good air exchange, the co2 will build up in the substrate due to the substrate?s thickness and the nonpermiability of the rubbermaid material.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Seuss]
    #632659 - 05/16/02 03:02 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Suess, I?ve never heard of that one before, but I guess it makes sense. Have you heard of othe rpeople trying this?

I would think it would be more able to harbour contams with open holes like that below the substrate. I thought colonization of mycelium needs the extra c02, and isint a problem with built up c02 underneath the substrate?!


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OfflineAngel_Magic79
HOT DIGGITY DOG
Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 119
Loc: Siberia
Last seen: 20 years, 1 day
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Seuss]
    #633731 - 05/17/02 05:50 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Suess, Thankyou for answering my question- I have posted a new thread
about Co2 buildup in the advanced cultivation forum & you would be the man
to answer these questions.

Thankyou for all the help & have a shroomy day


--------------------
ShroomChicks WANTED!!!
Preferably 18 to 21 years old.
Brunett & AVERAGE weight(I Stress)!!!
Please PM me with a current PIC!
Yours truly Mr. Angel- AKA. MOJO MAN
***FEMALES ONLY***


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Invisiblemrdasani
enthusiast
Registered: 10/20/01
Posts: 224
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Angel_Magic79]
    #633864 - 05/17/02 11:48 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

A foaf had just completely avoided the damn cow dung this time. The straw seems to work so much better alone right now. I want to go look for more dung but its not necessary really.

I have one comment I?d like to say about CO2 build up, I find from my experience with the myco enviroment, that it may not be entirely necessary to fan frequently.

I have seen different ratio enviorment casing situations and the depth of the edge of a container would actually be higher than the level of casing, the CO2 would be trapped since it is heavier than O2. But I noticed that fanning only once a day would remedy this situation. A light misting of luke warm water mix with a little Hydrogen Peroxide would balance the humidity.

I am certain that if one was to go about this large ratio, CO2 is not a concern.

By the way, a f.o.a.f. is also trying this depth ratio but he is using straw only. It is funny, blades of what appears to be straw that germinated after pastuerization have appeared. He was hoping that this would not mess with anything. He kind of hoped that the blades would take in enough CO2 aswell. Its interesting none the less.


--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


Edited by mrdasani (05/17/02 11:55 AM)


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OfflinePsycoMyco
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Registered: 04/11/02
Posts: 9
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 20 years, 4 months
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #633882 - 05/17/02 12:11 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

How much spawn was used to inoc that 2x2 box of substrate?


--------------------
Life is a bowl of shroomys!


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 8 months, 10 days
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: angryshroom]
    #633896 - 05/17/02 12:31 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

> Suess, I?ve never heard of that one before, but I guess it makes sense. Have you heard of othe rpeople trying this?

Nope, just something my friend picked up through trial and error. When using cardboard boxes she never had any problems... fast growing mycelium and no contamination. When she switched to the rubbermaid style containers the mycelium would grow good for a day or two and then stall out. Soon after bacterial contamination would set in and the entire thing would be lost. After drilling several small drain holes in the bottom of the container, her problems went away.

> I thought colonization of mycelium needs the extra c02

Yep, this is correct, but "extra" is not 100%. I honestly don?t know what made the difference... if it was the increased gas exchange through the substrate or the ability for any excess water to drain.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineShroomasta
Stranger
Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 23
Last seen: 20 years, 4 months
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: angryshroom]
    #634373 - 05/17/02 08:24 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

My firend left the boxes that he made for a while to work with some rye jars that were having problems and just recently went back to looking at the boxes. It seems that aside from the tops drying out and essentially stopping all growth of anything, the bottoms have colonized quite nicely. He was wondering if it is now possible to just remove the top "casing" layer of dung and recase with say coco coir/verm or some other casing to try and continue with the boxes. Do remember that it is possible that contams made it below the surface and he may not have noticed it. He just wants to know if he should dump the boxes even with very good stong growth on teh dung/straw below the surface. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.


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OfflineAngel_Magic79
HOT DIGGITY DOG
Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 119
Loc: Siberia
Last seen: 20 years, 1 day
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Seuss]
    #634866 - 05/18/02 05:18 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Thankyou Suess!!!

Anyone who would like to go into greater detail about Co2 exchange please
jump to:

http://shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum4&Number=633727&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1

Thanks & Happy Shroom?en



--------------------
ShroomChicks WANTED!!!
Preferably 18 to 21 years old.
Brunett & AVERAGE weight(I Stress)!!!
Please PM me with a current PIC!
Yours truly Mr. Angel- AKA. MOJO MAN
***FEMALES ONLY***


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Offlinephishyfriend
newbie
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 34
Loc: new england
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #642565 - 05/24/02 08:02 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

wow mycofile great log i got some questions for you if you dont mind?
1>can you use plastic trash cans or is there a reason you used metal/ also when you let your stuff drain are you concerned with the fact that it would just be layin there drainin in your bath tub???
2>how much grain/birdseed would you recomened you say a bag but there are a few different size bags(jus wounderin)??
3>can you describe how much plastic you used to line the box and how you perferated the top plastic?did you tape the liner in or just let it chill?did you sterilize the plastic?
4>were you concerned with contamination when you aired them out?did you mist alot?
thank you for you time i hope these arent petty questions


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Invisiblemycofile
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Registered: 01/19/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: phishyfriend]
    #665385 - 06/06/02 02:05 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I must apologize for my absence of late. Very busy at work, and I?ve got plenty of bills to work for. Anyway, I?ll completely update this thread with answers to all questions tonight. Sorry to take so long...


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Offlinephishyfriend
newbie
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 34
Loc: new england
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #665730 - 06/06/02 05:50 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

i got some more questions
1....did you have any problem initiating pinning ?even if you did?nt how would you suggest getting it to pin if troubles accured?
2....have you had many contamination problems with this procedure?
3....could you use just vermiculite without coir? why do you use coir?
4....when you are letting the straw/dung drain do you do this in just your bath tub?
5.....how much spawn do you use, and would rye be fine
thats about all. sorry your so busy but it must be nice to have a big paycheck. if i think of any thing else ill post before you answer these tonight


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Offlinephishyfriend
newbie
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 34
Loc: new england
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: phishyfriend]
    #665749 - 06/06/02 06:07 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

6....do you mist the spawn at all?do you mist the casing at all?
7...how long should i wait till i case?
8...do you case a special way?
9...i dont understtand how the h202 is used, i know you only used it as a saftey precaution but i want to do the same precaution.any explination would be appreciated?
10..what kind of procedure did you follow when mixing the straw/dung with the grain, what did you mix it in?
11... after the straw layer was set ,did you put more grain on top then a layer of dung??
thats enough sorry for all the questions but thank you for relizing that you have a lot to offer by answering them


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Invisiblemrdasani
enthusiast
Registered: 10/20/01
Posts: 224
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #667208 - 06/07/02 05:35 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

heeeeeey mycofile welcome back to this thread! i thought u were gone for good! once again, thanks for your grow log on the bulk neglect. some idiots threw out my straw . Im at a loss for bulk material! what a damn shame!


--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mrdasani]
    #676109 - 06/13/02 02:42 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

OK, finally a few minutes....
iNdRbRA
In reply to:

plan on innoculating the dung/straw with two 1 quart jars fully colonized with PC Equador. I also plan on doing a BRF/Verm grinding and using that also. Will this be enough? If possible, would you mind giving some insight into the best way to grind up a cake without contaminating it?



Amount of spawn depends on the area and depth of the bulk sub. Some people say a pint per sq ft. is sufficient, I lean more towards a quart jar per sq. ft. The extra spawn speeds colonization which prevents contams from having time to get established. It also provides a large nutrient boost to the relatively poor straw. Ground cakes go a long way. Adding just one would probably allow you to cut your grain spawn in half, but you won?t get the nutritioun boost. Grind the cakes in a clean blender or coffee grinder, just make sure they are absolutly positivly colonized first.
In reply to:

A question about pastuerising...If I leave the dung/straw in the can even after the temps have started dropping down...say overnight...do I risk problems with contam? (ie have I just put myself back to the beginning by leaving it overnight in the cool water?)



Don?t do that for a few reasons. One, the moisture content of your bulk substrate will be too high. You don?t want it that soggy. Two, the tea that is made by pasteurizing dung/straw is not as selective a media as the dung/straw itself is. The tea is much more contaminant prone than the sub itself.
In reply to:

About casing: I know that I can case even without full colonization, is there a reason to let it colonize first then case?



I wouldn?t do that because the casing will not colonize evenly. The substrate doesn?t colonize evenly, and therefore the mycelium will spread from the sub to the casing earlier in some places than others. this will result in uneven pin sets, overlay and stroma problems, ultimately affecting yield.
In reply to:

With your colonization step......how many perforations and what size holes?



Thats a hard one for me. I know from experience what?s right, and just poked holes untill I thought it sufficient. I think Shroomgod?s straw tek gives specifics which is where I first learned straw and perforating plastic. I refer you there.
In reply to:

A question about the meaning of hydrating to field capacity...I assume that this means to the max point without water actually seeping out. (moist?)



Not sure if field capacity really is the right word. It?s a term I was taught when I was first learning about casings. I use it to refer to the correct moisture level where squeezing a handful really hard will cause some water to seep from between your fingers, but not much. In fact, with a coir/verm casing, most of that water will be sucked back into the mix when you release pressure. Moist, but not wet. You don?t want to be able to ring it out like a saturated sponge.
In reply to:

With the fruiting steps: I have heard that approx. 12 hours of light is optimal for frowth, yet your method clearly shows that it is not nesscesary for good shroom growth...what do you think about leaving the cover off for longer to expose for more light?



Starting years ago when hip and I were playing around with colonizing pf jars in light, I learned that much of what you read about light and shrooms is bullshit. I don?t think more light would be beneficial in that it would noticably affect yield, fruit size, time schedule or anything else. It would help if you were growing gnarly, crooked, bent stemmed shrooms. A little light a day is obviously sufficient for great results. Remember, even black plastic from trash bags allows some light through. Removing that plastic for a little while a day to care for and ponder the marvel of your fruits is enough.
In reply to:

Also, with misting, how moist should the shrooms get before you allow them to soak the water up? Visible moisture droplets too much?



I don?t understand this question. It?s not the shrooms you are misting, its the casing surface. You want to keep the casing at a similar moisture level to the way you prepared it initially.
In reply to:

When harvesting the fruits...approx how often did you have to worry about seaching for abhorts which needed to be removed?



I harvest everything within the same day. I may give some a few more hours to grow, but not more than that. When all the large fruits are harvested, I pick anything you can get without touching the casing. Anything else stays. It won?t rot like many fear, but actually fluff back up like mycelium. Just pick them at the end of each flush harvest.
In reply to:

Last thing...about pH how important do you think it is to adjust and does it change much with different strains?



I?ve never noticed a big difference in pH susceptability from strain to strain. I?m sure there are exceptions to that, but I?ve never noticed it. pH in general is pretty important, but within ranges. Most common substrates and casing formulas can be used without worrying too much about pH. One thing to remember is that most contams favor a slightly acidic environment, while cubes favor slightly basic one. Might as well stack the deck in your favor while you can.

Boss came in, I?ll answer every other question in this thread later this afternoon, promise!




--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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InvisibleDrD525
what'shappening?!
Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 182
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: paddo]
    #676748 - 06/13/02 10:24 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

WAY COOL!


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Invisiblemycofile
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Posts: 2,336
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: DrD525]
    #685205 - 06/18/02 02:02 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

All right.....
In reply to:

Myco how do dry out that much? It seems like that would be hard.



Well, Joshua shared a PM I sent him which basically describes it. The key is the combination of fan and dessicant methods. Probably the easiest way is with a 20" box fan, some 20" square frames of 1X(2,3 or 4) lumber depending, screen for the wood frames, the cheapest dessicant you can get your hands on, a tub to drain the dessicant in, and a way (big trash bag if nothing else) to seal the whole setup air tight. Wish I had pics, but I think you get the idea, especially if you read Joshua?s post above.

Mr. Dasani wrote
In reply to:

the conditions that i speak of are: brown rice flour + vermiculite colonized ecuador strain (clone .... not multispore) spawned on to 25% cattle dung 75% wheat straw. The wheat straw and dung mix was pasturized at 160deg F for 45 minutes. So far it has been one week after spawning and there is what seems no colonization of the ecuador mycelium on the dung/straw. (from the view of the surface). It seems that the little crumbles of substrate did puff up with more mycelium, but didn?t "spawn" on to the dung.



One thing in my experience that can do that is an overly wet substrate. How well did you drain the substrate? pH could cause the problem as well as using fresh dung. Unfortunately I really can?t pin it down any closer, because all those things will have the similar result. No colonization. Sorry, better luck next time.

mrdasani wrote:
In reply to:

mycofile, about the second modification, i wanted to know if you took any pre-steps to make sure the dung/straw would work. like such as checking the pH or making a small (very small) ammount your first time.



Hehehe. Yeah, before these pictures were taken, I did a few years worth of tests which verified the quality of my straw and dung sources. I don?t recall ever testing the pH or anything, but I did grow many times in very similar manners.
In reply to:

I am thinking about what to do about finding out how to make sure i find dung with proper bacteria (or whatever necessary) in it.



All dung has some bacteria in it, and I don?t know of any special bacteria that might be in some poo that won?t be in others. I think the key isn?t the source, but the age. If the pies you are using smell, they aren?t old enough. Propper cow pies should smell like dirt when they are broken up. Maybe a little mushroomy, but absolutely not stinky.
In reply to:

the dung I shoveled up are from cattle, ....that is the same as cow right?



so far as I know cows and cattle are the exact same thing. Kinda like the difference between humans and people.

Angel Magic 79 wrote:
In reply to:

Great Job!!! Shrooms are pretty with not much effort. Mycofile - will you be writing a step by step tek for the Shroomeries grow cubensis section?



I don?t think so. I really don?t view this as a tek. There are some things I would do differently, and there are others that I?m not sure are perfect. Seeing as how I can?t do further experiments, I think this is all that it is, a grow log. Anno has asked for a clean up copy to be posted in the grow section, and I think thats fine. I?m just not comfortable calling it a tek. Really it?s just a way to half-assedly do conventional cultivation and still get decent results. So yes, there will be a clean-up copy, but no I won?t call it a tek.

suntzu wrote:
In reply to:

Something that I think was a bit underemphasized [maybe?] in the responses to this success is the level of the casing relative to its container. Many large rubbermaid casings will fail primarily because the casing is sitting deep within a chamber [often airtight]. This favors CO2 stratification, usually requires some kind of manual work. The tray above, even when ?bagged?, is not within a well of plastic like in a typical rubbermaid system. Mycofile mentioned this, but it seems like a major physical difference from other systems and worth mentioning again



I think you are right. The sides of the trays should not be much higher than the casing level, allowing co2 to drain off. I believe that was underemphasized as well.

mr dasani wrote
In reply to:

I have one comment I?d like to say about CO2 build up, I find from my experience with the myco enviroment, that it may not be entirely necessary to fan frequently.



To a certain extent you are right, but it depends entirely on the scale you are growing on, and the environment you are growing in. A small closet having 1/4 of it?s total volume full of bulk substrates is going to require much more fresh air than a tray or two sitting in a large room. In TMC stamets talks about "micro cultivation" methods where opening a terrerium to fan once aday is sufficient. The line between micro-cultivation and it?s forgiveness blurs as one progresses in cultivation techniques and scale. This is one of the biggest reasons to head YMMV disclaimers because everyone?s situation is a little different.

psycomyco wrote:
In reply to:

How much spawn was used to inoc that 2x2 box of substrate?



A big ass bag of spawn. I really can?t remember, but a lot more than was needed was used. I may not have even measured it in cups or anything, simply eyeballed more than I needed and used that. When you are working with grain to grain transfers, bags instead of jars, and peroxide for protection, you can very easily create more spawn than you know what to do with. Sorry for not having a better answer but this is a log, not a tek. For future reference I would recomend using a pint or more per square foot if using relatively small grains like rye or millet. The more the merrier.
shroomasta wrote:
In reply to:

He just wants to know if he should dump the boxes even with very good stong growth on teh dung/straw below the surface. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.



well, I?m sure I?m too late to help, but I would have suggested just misting the top layer to see if it would colonize. You could pull it off it you wanted to, but you can always do that later if it doesn?t start to colonize after you rehydrate the top layer.




--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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