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Invisiblemycofile
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Bulk Neglect Report *completed* * 1
    #609532 - 04/16/02 01:00 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Bear with me while this is a work in progress...



All the information below is an account of a particular adventure in mycology. None of it is recommended as the ideal, only a fictional account of how things can go. For example, peroxide is used in the grains even though it probably wasn?t required. It was simply to hedge the bets on the grain-to-grain transfers. As should be noted, the experimenter in this case was rather experienced, although an intermediate beginner with a head on his/her shoulders shouldn?t have much trouble with similar things.



A long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, a tenacious mycophile tried to push the envelope of massive simplicity in bulk fruiting environments. At a point before our pictorial feast, we begin with a spore syringe of Psilocybe cubensis, Hawaiian strain. The syringe is used to inoculate birdseed. The birdseed spawns synthetic compost. The most charismatic fruit body is selected to continue its existence through the marvel of cloning. The rest of her life is the subject at hand.

Cloning

Harvest day for our main lady is a busy time. As such, a chunk is cut from inside her stem near the base. The chunk is rinsed in 3% H2O2, and placed in a small jar containing sterile distilled water and peroxide (roughly .0015% H2O2). A filter disc in the lid of the jar allows the gasses produced by the peroxide to be vented. The jar is left at room temperature until the initial harvest, drying and bio assaying are completed. A period of roughly 2 weeks passes. Peroxidated MEA is prepared in the standard manner. Peroxide concentration is on the higher end of the recommended levels. The chunk is removed from the jar and placed on the agar. The plate is mostly colonized in a week and a half with temps hovering near 70 deg F.

Spawn

A quart of birdseed spawn is selected from several prepared in the following manner. Birdseed rinsed clean several times in cold water (which btw removes a lot of sunflower seeds if you aren?t careful, or want it to, sunflower seeds float and are easily poured off from the rest of the BS). Boil an excess of water first. Reduce heat once boiling. Seed is simmered on low for 30 minutes (no more since we will be adding peroxide later and don?t want too much moisture). The grain is strained, rinsed and dried thoroughly before being loaded into the quart jar, ? full. The lid has a filter disc in it, but polyfill, or even coffee filters or cardboard can be substituted since we will be adding peroxide later. The jar is pressure cooked to sterilize and also destroy peroxide decomposing enzymes. When cool, the quart is injected with 12 cc?s peroxide, shaken and inoculated in front of a flow hood with a piece of the peroxidated agar. Colonization is complete in a week with temps around 80 deg F. A huge filter patch bag is prepared with birdseed as above. Peroxide amount is proportional to that listed above. In the flow hood, the bag is inoculated with the colonized quart jar and sealed with an impulse sealer. The bag is colonized in 11 days at room temps.

Bulk Substrate Prep

A large trashcan is loaded with straw and aged cow dung appearing to be about 75% straw 25% dung by volume. A pillowcase with extra dung is put on top of mixture and weighted with a cinder block. The thermostat on the hot-water heater is turned up as high as it goes, 160 deg F. The trashcan is placed in a bathtub and filled to the cinder block with the now very hot tap water. Enough boiling water from a pot on the stove is poured into the trashcan to bring the temp up to 175 deg F according to a thermometer in the can. The lid is placed on the trashcan and allowed to sit for 45 minutes, at which time the water has cooled to only about 155 deg F. Big ass heat resistant gloves are worn, and the trashcan is inverted carefully for draining, not allowing any substrate to escape the can. The can is left inverted to drain overnight.

Spawning bulk sub

The cooled dung/straw is mixed with the bag of grain spawn and put into the fruiting container. Fruiting container is a big cardboard box a little bigger than 2? square and about 8 inches deep, lined with several layers of plastic bags. The extra dung from the pillowcase is mixed with the remaining grain spawn and layered about ? inch deep on top. The dung top layer helps to protect the straw from contams and moisture loss. Often large chunks of casing are removed with fruits, exposing the substrate below. With straw becoming exposed, this can be a bigger problem than if dung gets exposed.

Spawn Run

A perforated plastic sheet is laid over the box for colonization, as shown below. The mixture colonizes quickly due to the dung and the large amount of spawn.









Casing

A casing of 25% verm and 75% coco coir (by volume) is prepared as follows. The verm is baked in an over for 30 minutes at 200 ish. The coir is hydrated in a bowl with boiling hot water. The two are mixed, a dash of lime is added to bring the pH to about 7.8 and the mixture is hydrated to field capacity. The casing mixture colonizes rapidly as is the norm with coir, but retains moisture much better than coir alone. The same perforated plastic from spawn run is used to cover the box during casing run.







Fruiting

The plastic is removed only once a day to expose the mycelium to light and to mist with tap water. The plastic is left off for only a few minutes after misting to allow the moisture to absorb. Pins show in a few days. Once pins are noticed, care is taken to not disturb them with the plastic. It is only loosely draped over the box.

















The daily (actually sometimes only every few days) misting and lighting continues while fruits mature. A few spots show a little tiny bit of overlay, and some casing is applied. Pin set is acceptably even. Note that absolutely no attention was paid to environmental parameters other than the sheet, the misting and occasional light when the box was checked on. The box simply sat on the dirty floor of a well-used closet, and enjoyed typical room temperatures.

















The caps seemed to be rather light for the strain, likely attributable to the lack of light exposure. And of course all fruits were harvested before committing the sin of over maturation. (My humble opinion only of course). A tip is to water the casing surface just before harvest. This helps to minimize the chunks of casing that are pulled up with the fruits if the casing has dried out.











Nearly all fruits weighed in at roughly 30-50 grams wet, of course some heavier, some of the few aborts were lighter. total yield for first flush was 8 oz dry. Very similar 2nd and 3rd flushes followed, each with even less time being covered by the plastic sheet. For each harvest, everything large enough to be harvested without touching the casing was removed. Then a light sprinkling of casing mixture was sprinkled over the surface and used to fill the divits left from harvesting shrooms.

Repeat Experiment

This experiment was repeated several months later to prove it wasn?t a fluke. This time, a different strain was used and one of the boxes was only half filled.



Some random second or third flush shrooms show that dung/straw can make some downright humongus fruits, even if you don?t take special care of it.



And this proves that I occasionaly missed the perfect harvest time and accidentally let a fruit mature.



YMMV, enjoy


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Edited by mycofile (06/19/02 04:33 AM)


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Invisiblesloluva
....

Registered: 12/26/01
Posts: 2,752
Loc: Ohio
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609542 - 04/16/02 01:07 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I guess this answers my question as to whether you were done with this, eh?

Thanks Myco, can?t wait to look this over. Thanks for taking the time to do this for all of us!

Peas,

Slo



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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609545 - 04/16/02 01:10 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Wow! mycofile, thank you so much for doing this!

This thread should be put in a special place, you truly are a talented cultivator.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Thor]
    #609561 - 04/16/02 01:28 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

That wasn?t as painful as I expected. Thanks for the kind words. Unfortunately, I?m not a skilled cultivator though. I WAS is more accurate. This just makes me miss it all the more, but hopefully others can learn from it, that?s why I still post. BTW, contrary to what many people think a person would do with that much fruit, that much yield might allow a person to quit growing for a very long time if one were inclined to store them dried and sealed under co2 in a friends spare fridge... 2 years later they might still be pretty good.
One needn?t be a dealer to want so much fruit, one might just not be interested in having an ongoing manufacturing crime being committed. Growing is fun, but peace of mind is a lot more fun.
Good night.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineALHOFF177A17
DoWn RU?

Registered: 01/24/02
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Thor]
    #609565 - 04/16/02 01:33 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Absolutely the best thank you indeed. Very good job skywalker. I have never seen a shroom that was a foot tall...


--------------------
www.DoWnClothing.COM


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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: ALHOFF177A17]
    #609598 - 04/16/02 02:19 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

That?s really something. Great accomplishment. It blows me away how nice they look for not being in a terrarium!


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OfflinePavlovs Dog
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Registered: 12/10/00
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609610 - 04/16/02 02:38 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Holy cowshit! Mycophile thats the largest bensis cap I have ever seen... even in the wild

Do it once, do it right you have the idea my freind!




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OfflineMyceliumcake
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Pavlovs Dog]
    #609618 - 04/16/02 02:52 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Absolutly amazing.
WOW!
I am very glad I ran into this thread.


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OfflineMyceliumcake
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609623 - 04/16/02 03:01 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I would like to know the signifigance in the h2o2.
What I mean is, when clonging, is it neccessary to soak the chunk?
And why did you want to "push the h202 envelope?"


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Invisiblemrdasani
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Registered: 10/19/01
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609781 - 04/16/02 08:57 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I have a three questions Mycofile:

1) Once you finished preparing the bulk substrate and spawned it with the grain, how long did it take for the substrate to fully colonize?

2) Would it be possible to use jars of colonized brown rice flour/vermiculite as a spawn as a replacement for the birdseed?

3) There is concern of a moisture level in the preparing bulk substrate step. I understand that the water would be drained out from the trash can after pastuerising the substrate, but wouldn?t adding too much water ruin the dung?s nutrient level? [specifically, how much water was added from the hot tap water to the trash can? how about the hot water from the pot?]


This was a great example of a simple bulk tek. Mycofile, you are a true pioneer for amateurs.



--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


Edited by mrdasani (04/16/02 09:19 AM)


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OfflineParticleMan
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609863 - 04/16/02 11:26 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

very nice myco!!! would you mind taking a humidity reading from the room you are working in? this is really cool and it would be nice to have the reading so the same arguments about the SOS would not come up. Everyone always speculates at the room humidity used in that document, well i thought it would be a nice addition to this one. congrats again, and good luck in whatever ventures you pick up to fill in all the extra time you have now :-)


--------------------
___________________________________________________________
"the weekend has landed all that exists now is clubs,drugs, pubs, and parties" - Human Traffic


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InvisibleDreaMaTrix
Shaman I am

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Posts: 3,125
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #609877 - 04/16/02 11:49 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

WOW!!!!
A truly awesome post!!!!
This should be put in a new forum, called: tek or grow log.

EXCELLENT!!!!!

BTW. What was potency like on them large beasts??

Good luck



--------------------





"We are the one's we have been waiting for" - Hopi saying


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: DreaMaTrix]
    #609945 - 04/16/02 01:04 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

OK, let?s keep this in thread form until all questions have been answered. Then I can make a final draft with all the answers included. Let?s see:
In reply to:

I would like to know the signifigance in the h2o2.
What I mean is, when clonging, is it neccessary to soak the chunk?
And why did you want to "push the h202 envelope?"



H2O2 is used to protect the grains. It?s use would allow one to not use a flow hood or filter discs in the jars, having both, I used them anyway. In this case the peroxide simply added another layer of protection, especially since grain to grain transfers are more risky than other types of innoculation. It was used with the mycelium sample because a) the chunk was non-sterile b) it was put in the sterile jar of water in an open-air non-sterile environment and c) I knew it would be stored for a little while before use. I wasn?t pushing the H2O2 envelope, did I say that? I was pushing the simplicity envelope. H2O2 just hedged the bets, simple is no good if it?s not effective.
In reply to:

1) Once you finished preparing the bulk substrate and spawned it with the grain, how long did it take for the substrate to fully colonize?



Colonization time was just over a week. I?m glad youi asked though, I forgot about an important detail of the first tray. It sat for over a week after it was fully colonized, it over colonized. When it was cased, the surface was covered in the nasty yellow jelly that gets exuded. Some say this jelly is a metabolic product produced by the fungi (as seen in over-incubated jars) and it just gets produced more quickly when cubes eat dung. Others have speculated that it is actually material that is pushed out of the dung by the mycelium. I?d have to do some more research to determine which I believe, read around if you are interested.
In reply to:

2) Would it be possible to use jars of colonized brown rice flour/vermiculite as a spawn as a replacement for the birdseed?



Certainly. I will mention however that by volume, whole grains are much more nutritious than a cake which is mostly verm. An abundance of cakes used as spawn would ensure that the nutrient base of the straw is boosted just as it would be by whole grains. I?m not really sure at what level you will run into problems though. I only did once when a single BRF cake was used to innoculate a massive area of straw. This is only possible by grinding the cake as described by a few people over the years, but never really popularized. I believe a cat name old timer pushes this method. Best of both worlds is to innoculate with both grain spawn and a ground PF style cake or two. Colonization will be complete in just a few days and you will still get the nutrient reserve of the grains.
In reply to:

3) There is concern of a moisture level in the preparing bulk substrate step. I understand that the water would be drained out from the trash can after pastuerising the substrate, but wouldn?t adding too much water ruin the dung?s nutrient level? [specifically, how much water was added from the hot tap water to the trash can? how about the hot water from the pot?



No concern here actually. Dung, unlike castings are actually fine if not better once they have been leached like this. Cubes like the solids in dung, the un and under digested straw/hay whatever. These solids won?t wash away in solution like the much more soluble worm poo which is diluted in undesirable solid bedding material. But to answer the question anyway, specifically I can?t give you a measurement. Proportionally though it was enough to fill the can to just over the block holding the dung/straw down, and a large pot of boiling water over that. I guess the water level was a good 5 inches or so above the level of the substrate. Again I don?t think this matters at all.
In reply to:

would you mind taking a humidity reading from the room you are working in?



Can?t do it, I don?t live there anymore. I?ll check the book to be sure, but as I recall ambient rH was generally in the 30s-40ish range for the first experiment and higher (60s-80s) for the next two. Folks in the mid or soutwest will need to keep the sheet on most of the time if you want to try this. Again, use common sense to address any issues which come up, this isn?t a tek it?s a grow log.
In reply to:

BTW. What was potency like on them large beasts??



IME, maturity is the one thing which affects potency the most, not size. A closed cap shroom the size of your head will be as potent as the same strain grown in a manner to produce a closed cap the size of your pinky. So if you are referring to the mature beasts, they aren?t as potent as the large closed caps, and the large closed caps aren?t as potent as the aborts. They are relative to shrooms at similar maturity levels from different cultivation methods. Remember, the same thing applies to which flush the fruits came from. Total psilo potency as well as ratios of cin to cybin varry from flush to flush. You can?t compare first flush fruits to 4th flush fruits without getting apples to oranges anomalies, which most people will contribute to fruit size, rather than flush number.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Edited by mycofile (04/16/02 01:19 PM)


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OfflineAlpheratus
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #610216 - 04/16/02 07:24 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

how deep are those caseings?
and approx. how much, in volume, of dung/straw did you use?


--------------------
blasted holes into night until she bled sunshine


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Invisiblerebelmoon
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Registered: 04/05/00
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #610220 - 04/14/02 03:55 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

hi myco. some more questions here for you...

"The jar is left at room temperature until the initial harvest, drying and bio assaying are completed. A period of roughly 2 weeks passes."

is this your neglect or is there another reason it sat so long?

"The jar is pressure cooked to sterilize and also destroy peroxide decomposing enzymes."

does this work for any substrate (such as rye for example)? i know i could check rush waynes manual but im lazy...

"The two are mixed, a dash of lime is added to bring the pH to about 7.8 ..."

two questions. did you use limestone flour (stamets recommended, commercial standard) or hydrated lime (popularized by ryche hawk and debatably inferior)? isnt the optimum pH lower than that? why use it at all? is it because the pH decreases with each successive flush and you wanted to get your fifth flush?s worth?

awesome writeup and pics. i wish there was a forum or subforum for these...


--------------------
"habit is the ballast that chains the dog to its vomit" - s beckett


Edited by rebelmoon (04/14/02 03:56 PM)


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OfflineChemical_Smile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #610457 - 04/14/02 09:40 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for a great post. You have realy got me inspired with this one.


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OfflineTC
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Registered: 12/20/98
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Loc: cali
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #610516 - 04/14/02 11:19 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

That is inspiring. Thanks myco!

later
TC~~out


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Invisiblemycofile
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Registered: 01/19/99
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: TC]
    #610733 - 04/17/02 12:18 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

how deep are those caseings?



first one is rather shallow for the amount of substrate, about 3/4 inch. The others were an inch or 1.25 inches.
In reply to:

and approx. how much, in volume, of dung/straw did you use?



Considering the substrate is about 6 inches deep and 2 feet by 2 feet, I think that is pretty close to 2 cubic feet of straw and dung. If you are wanting to know how much dry substrate to use, use a little more because you compress it in the tray before adding the top layer of dung. I think I left that out of the original post, I?ll add it later. Compress the dung straw as much as you can by hand, then add the top dung layer. You can just eyeball the dry amounts, if you make too much you can use it for something else or just throw it in your compost pile or trash, if you make too little, you just won?t fill the tray as deeply. I think that?s what happened to the tray in the foreground of the two tray picture, ran out of substrate. It?s first 3 flushes were very comparable to the deeper trays, any difference came out in the wash.
In reply to:

"The jar is left at room temperature until the initial harvest, drying and bio assaying are completed. A period of roughly 2 weeks passes." is this your neglect or is there another reason it sat so long?



My neglect, if you call it that. Harvest time is a busy time. There are fruits to harvest and clean, drying to be done and journeys to take. So, there is no benefit to the fungus to letting it sit other than allowing one to not neglect more important things like cleaning and drying fruits.
In reply to:

"The jar is pressure cooked to sterilize and also destroy peroxide decomposing enzymes." does this work for any substrate (such as rye for example)?



Yes it does. Pressure cooking destroys the enzymes in all substrates which break down peroxide. Peroxide can be added to any substrate (agar, grain, flour mixes etc) after these enzymes have been dealt with. And you?ve got to pressure cook grain no matter how you slice the pie. After this log is completed, I?ll do a detailed posts for peroxide agar as well as peroxide grain.
In reply to:

"The two are mixed, a dash of lime is added to bring the pH to about 7.8 ..." two questions. did you use limestone flour (stamets recommended, commercial standard) or hydrated lime (popularized by ryche hawk and debatably inferior)? isnt the optimum pH lower than that? why use it at all? is it because the pH decreases with each successive flush and you wanted to get your fifth flush?s worth?



Bag from nursery/walmart etc simply labled "lime" and mentioning something about magnessium content being lower than such and such (3% maybe? I really don?t know). I wasn?t shooting for optimum pH to be honest. I eyeballed the lime, then figured I?d test it to make sure it was somewhere close. The reading seemed entirely suitable, so it was left where it was. Why use it at all is because I had a bag. In years of cultivation I never finished up the smallest size bag they sell. Also because coir based casings are slightly acidic. Sure they work without modification, but why not hedge the bets if it?s cheap and easy to do so? Contams favor acidic environments. Cubes favor slightly basic casings. I?m trying to supress my perfectionist attitude which would normally tell people to go for optimums. In the real world, the optimum is slightly basic, any more perfection than that comes out in the wash, meaning benefits are not noticed due to slight detriments from something else you slightly bunged up. pH does decrease with time, but in reality, who cares? Who would really need a fifth or even 7th flush when yields are this high? More importantly is to hedge the bets against contams by making the soil slightly basic, which contams don?t really love and which mycelium does, therefore growing faster. More important than modifying the pH though is the addition of the verm to the coir, preventing the coir from drying out as quickly as it does, especially when it doesn?t have a terrerium protecting it.

Hope this all helps


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #610762 - 04/17/02 12:53 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I Dont want to be picky but the enzymes would still actually be there except they will be inert. But Still great job


--------------------
Fighting the man the best way I can.


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InvisibleBeautifulDay
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Loc: SinCity
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #610772 - 04/17/02 01:01 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Great work mycofile, I?m very impressed with your simple and straightforward methodology. The only question I have is: where did you get your dung? Did you gather it or did you buy it from a nursery?
Thanks for the inspiration!
Ciao,
BeautifulDay


--------------------
The thin line between genius and insanity is known only by those who cross it.


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InvisibleDreaMaTrix
Shaman I am

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Registered: 02/11/02
Posts: 3,125
Loc: Falling into place
Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #610781 - 04/17/02 01:09 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I should have worded my question differently, try again:

How would you compare the potency of these large shrooms, to lets say the potency of shrooms grown in smaller scale tek.
For instance: 5 grams of these monsters compared with 5 grams of shrooms grown on a 12" bread pan casing.

Hope it makes sense!!

Cooooooooool



--------------------





"We are the one's we have been waiting for" - Hopi saying


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: DreaMaTrix]
    #610987 - 04/17/02 04:54 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

where did you get your dung?



Gathered from the field. Anything that is old enough that it doesn?t stink works fine. Every farmer I have ever approached has been friendly and more than happy to let me gather some as long as I promised not to let his cows out or to hurt them. (seriously, how is a skinny little man like myself going to hurt a 12 million pound beast on her home turf?) Apparantly they get many very similar requests from gardners every spring, so I just tell them it?s for my garden, or my compost pile if it?s not the beginning of the spring or fall gardening seasons. Only been turned down once, and that was because the farmer used them in his own garden.
In reply to:

How would you compare the potency of these large shrooms, to lets say the potency of shrooms grown in smaller scale tek. For instance: 5 grams of these monsters compared with 5 grams of shrooms grown on a 12" bread pan casing.



Your question was worded fine, I understood. Perhaps I should have worded my answer differently. To put it very simply, they are of the exact same potency, at least as accurately as a bio-assay can be. To complicate the answer a little more, make sure you account for things that do affect potency (flush number, isolated strain, fruit maturity etc) to make sure you aren?t comparing apples to oranges.
For instance, 5 grams of those mature monsters in the last two pix would compare very equally to 5 grams of fruits of similar maturity from a 12" bread pan, or even a PF cake for that matter. The same would go for fruits with the veil about to break, or for aborts for that matter, as long as what you are comparing them to is fruit of a similar maturity. On the other hand, one of those 5 gram fruits in the last two pictures wouldn?t hold a candle to 5 grams of aborts, regardless of substrate or grow method.
Which reminds me, reported yields don?t include aborts. I?ll check the notes to include in the final write up, but I know the first tray produced at least an ounce of aborts. Now talk about a special evening! The trays in the 2 tray picture produced many many many more aborts due to the over-prolific pin set, which of course I ate exclusively for a couple months!

I do hope all this helps, and I encourage any further questions. The questions remind me of things I left out or need to clarify when I make a final write up, not to mention answer questions other readers may not have even thought to ask.
peaces


--------------------
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PM me with any cultivation questions.

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Invisiblemrdasani
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #611252 - 04/17/02 09:58 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Mycofile. Was the box of substrate left inside while colonizing?

I don?t want to leave a box of dung indoors because of the smell. What did you do to take care of that problem?

The problem if I leave it outside, the colonizing time will take atleast 2 times as long because of the lower temperature at night. Is this true?


--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


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OfflineChemical_Smile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mrdasani]
    #611318 - 04/17/02 11:45 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

If you use older dung just the plastic cover would probably be enough to keep you from smelling it. I have a 50lb bag of cow shit sitting open in my room and I cant smell it. The only problem is that a big box full of shit sitting in the corner is a turnoff to some girls.


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Anonymous

Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #611385 - 04/18/02 12:49 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

GREAT WRITE-UP Mycofile!!!!!!!!!



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OfflineFrankenstein
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: ]
    #611668 - 04/18/02 07:48 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Very inspiring! Absolutely amazing!

So did you dunk that after the first flush? lol


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Frankenstein]
    #611810 - 04/18/02 12:30 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

Mycofile. Was the box of substrate left inside while colonizing?



Yes it was inside.
In reply to:

I don?t want to leave a box of dung indoors because of the smell. What did you do to take care of that problem?



For the life of me I don?t know why this keeps coming up. Dung doesn?t stink. IMO it smells better than wet straw, it?s much more fresh smelling, more earthy. Straw smells like stinky collards. Dung only stinks if it was A) gathered when it was fresh and stinky or B) contaminated with bacteria. Anything contaminated with bacteria stinks, and it?s easy to not gather stinky shit, although the farmer will look at you a little funny, or passing cars for that matter. "Hey hunnie, look at that stupid hippie in the cow field, OH MY GOD! He?s sniffing SHIT!!!"
In reply to:

The problem if I leave it outside, the colonizing time will take atleast 2 times as long because of the lower temperature at night. Is this true?



I have no idea if it?s true, it depends on your area. I would imagine that if you spawn it heavily, colonization time won?t be an issue. But if you are going to colonize it outside, why not just grow outside? Those boxes were planted outside for additional fruits after they were thrown out.
In reply to:

The only problem is that a big box full of shit sitting in the corner is a turnoff to some girls.



Only if they know what it is. Once the cow pies are crumbled, nobody will know it?s shit. I?ve repeatedly handed someone a bag of crumbled cow shit (crumbled so they wouldn?t recognize what it was) and said, "does this smell funny to you?", they always say, "no it smells like dirt, what is it?" I say "it?s dirt, I just thought it smelled funky, guess I was wrong". Nobody ever knows they stuck their face in a bag of shit. When I had a roomate, he would run out the door laughing his ass off everytime I would do that to someone...
In reply to:

So did you dunk that after the first flush?



LOL!


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

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Invisiblethescientist
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #611949 - 04/18/02 02:55 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

how feasible would this grow log/tek be w/o the use of a flow hood?


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OfflinePrimorda
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mrdasani]
    #611998 - 04/18/02 03:53 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

mycofile is correct about the dung smell. It?s just like wet fertile soil.


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #612074 - 04/18/02 05:32 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)


Mycofile, your write up was great. Very easy to read, and is worded great. Inspires me to try something like that.

Ive seen pictures of people just using the sterilte containers just as a big tray, and using the lids to keep in the humidity. I guess its the same thing, just making your own box lined with plastic. I really like your idea.

Sorry about more questions...

1)How did you drain the straw/dung mix from the trashcan, without letting any of the substrate out? Just leave the lid on, and then invert? Sorry if thats a stupid question, but I dont understand how you drain it

2)Is there any concern about contaminating the dung/straw while transfering it and before you case it?

Thanks for this great post and informational teaching


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Invisiblesloluva
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #612418 - 04/19/02 12:18 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I wonder how many times this post has been printed out....

Twice for me... (Thor, once or twice for you?)


Peas all,

Slo



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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: angryshroom]
    #612754 - 04/19/02 10:47 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

Sorry about more questions...



As I?ve said above, Please ask more questions. The more questions asked, the more informative the post becomes.
In reply to:

How did you drain the straw/dung mix from the trashcan, without letting any of the substrate out? Just leave the lid on, and then invert?



Acutally I left that part a little vague on purpose. The "trash can" that I used was really more like a barrel, which tapered a little at the top. I had a square piece of plywood which would fit in the top, but when twisted slightly it mostly closed off the top. That combined with the fact that on top of the dung/straw was the pillow case of dung which acts as a type of restraining screen prevented loss of any substrate. Now, I know that isn?t going to apply to almost anyone out there, so I leave it up to you as to how you do it. You can put everything in laundy bags, just wrap it up in an old sheet, rig some cloth over the can etc. One of the most beautiful things of DIY is it?s always unique.
In reply to:

Is there any concern about contaminating the dung/straw while transfering it and before you case it?



No, not other than common sense. If you drop some straw in your cats litter box, leave it there, don?t try and use it. Don?t use emery cloth to slough off dead skin cells from your elbow into the substrate etc. Properly pasteurized straw and/or dung are selective enough that you have at least a week before anything other than mycelium will be able to attack them. And after that, even if you aren?t 100% colonized, the colonization you do have will be excreting enough antibiotics and such to protect you untill it?s ready.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #612759 - 04/19/02 10:53 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

oh yeah,
In reply to:

how feasible would this grow log/tek be w/o the use of a flow hood?



Very feasible. I had one, so I used it. Glove boxes, oven tek etc are good enough. I know plenty of people w/out flow hoods who use agar, grains and grain to grain transfers all the time. The addition of the peroxide makes it even more likely that you can be successful w/out the hood. If you can get grain spawn without a hood, then you can do this without one for sure. And you don?t necessarily have to do a G2G transfer, you could just use a box of quart jars or whatever.

I?ve actually done every step above (cloning w/ peroxide agar, peroxide grain, peroxide G2G transfer) without an oven, glovebox or hood. But if you?ve got one or want one, use it.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblemrdasani
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #612899 - 04/19/02 02:33 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Hey Mycofile,

This is what my friend?s cousin?s friend has prepared as a mockup of your tek:

He gots two tupperware containers, straw and steer manure.
Mixed the steer manure and straw. Pasturized with boiling water.

I?ll obmit from explaining the details. But this guys main concerns are:

1) He was impatient and just bought a store brand "Steer Manure - "Well-aged compost of steer manure". He was wondering if this would pose as a problem as being a substitute for authentic cow dung or horse dung. Will it take longer? Could there be less fruits?

2) He wants to know if there needs to be any fanning or air exchange during the 1-2 weeks of colonizing of spawn to bulk substrate?

3) Should the casing be put on right after the colonized substrate is mixed with the bulk substrate? Or should the casing be put after the manure looks partially colonized on the top? Or (as according to time - this is what hes planning on doing for now) should it be cased afer 2 weeks of being spawned?

Mycofile, there are two main problems and differences from yours and my friend?s friend:

1) The manure type,[it may take longer?]
2) The colonized spawn is a multispore innoculation type. [Will is lead to a smaller ammount yield? Or same weighted yield but abnormal sized fruits?]

Mycofile, thanks for the help!


--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


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Invisiblefeito
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #612906 - 04/19/02 02:41 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

mycofile, this might help...
BEER KEGS! These make GREAT big kettles for past. bulk subs....dung/straw.
The top is sawed off. Let off the pressure, drill a hole in it, and get out the plasma cutter or the sawzall!! MAN!! those kegs ring like a high pitched bell when you cut the steel!
Then weld/have one welded for you- a ball valve at the side, towards the bottom. This is your drain.
A HD wire mesh screen or "perf plate" can be propped slightly above the valve to aid in straining the stuff.....
And of course get a KING KOOKER propane burner to fire the fucker....
Sporeworks has em....
These units can be bought premade at homebrew supply stores, as a "mash tun" for beer making..
they are free if you make em, maybe 250 bucks if you buy one.
Just a tip..


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mrdasani]
    #613006 - 04/19/02 04:59 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

1) The manure type,[it may take longer?]



Personally, I never had success with store bought manures. I know others have. Worst case scenario, the manure is worthless. Even at that, no harm, the mycleium will colonize it just like a casing material, even if it?s mixed in with the straw. I just wouldn?t make the top layer very deep. Just deep enough to keep the stray straws down.
In reply to:

The colonized spawn is a multispore innoculation type.



Not a problem. I do feel that isolated strains yield better, assuming that you have a good isolated strain. A low yielding strain could be isolated which actually yields less than a healthy multispore. Irregular pin set, and fruit maturation will be more noticable though. Again not a problem, you should still get fruits.
A few comments that weren?t asked as questions:
In reply to:

tupperware containers



That isn?t very specific, but if the sides of the tupperwares are much higher than the casing level, then you could have a few problems with co2. In the boxes above, the casing layer was only an inch or so below the sides, allowing co2 to spill over the side. In a 12" + deep tupperware, much more co2 will build up. Also, surface area could be important here, I don?t know. If they are small rubbermaids, you may have drying out issues that didn?t come up with the larger masses of substrate and casing. I don?t know though, let us know.
In reply to:

Pasturized with boiling water



Hope you didn?t mean that. Pastuerization temperatures are well below boiling. Boiling can lead to many troubles, including but not limited to bacterial bloom. Any pasteurization method should have covered that.

And about the beer kegs, sounds great. But the point of the water heater pasteurization as described above is that A) it?s easy and B) it doesn?t require the king cooker or anything else. Beer kegs do sound like they?d be a great thing for others to play with, but they seem complicated. A metal trash can is only $15, it leaks, but can be sealed, and a drain could easily be installed in the bottom. It wouldn?t be great for traditional pasteurizing, but would work perfectly for the apartment dweller to stick in his bath tub for a hot water heater supplied pasteurization. Then again, I imagine some people have a couple old kegs they?ve been looking for something to do with...


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblemrdasani
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #613019 - 04/19/02 05:14 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

About the boiling situation, my friends friend just poured some below boiling point water over the straw and manure which was damp and half way filled with luke warm water. This should?ve brought down the temperature of the very hot water to about 160 degrees. His concern at the time may have been that the temp was lower than it should?ve been.

I don?t completely understand the bacterial bloom caused by very hot water. It just doesn?t seem to make any sense, wouldn?t bacterial die off from hot temperatures?

And if this was a possibilty, does the exposure to the hot water have to be for a certain duration of time? I believe the substrate was only very hot for about 5 minutes. Is this long enough to cause some critical error?

I am starting to doubt that my friend?s friend is going to be sucessful at his first attempt.


--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


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OfflineDinoMyc
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mrdasani]
    #613133 - 04/19/02 07:51 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

I don?t completely understand the bacterial bloom caused by very hot water. It just doesn?t seem to make any sense, wouldn?t bacterial die off from hot temperatures?
--
no. Bacteria are a hell of alot more resilient than one would think. Many actually prefer extreme temperatures.. the polar ice caps, undersea volcano caps, etc. Where there is a will, there is a way. They have enough will for all of us. Tough little bastards they are..

good luck! (not in the bad sense, in the good sense)


--------------------
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Invisibleralphster44
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #613205 - 04/19/02 09:15 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.


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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mrdasani]
    #614139 - 04/20/02 10:42 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

mrdasani,
I don?t know where your friend got his ideas from, but I think he?s in trouble. Anything he read on pasteurization should have made it clear that the desired temps are about 160-170 deg F. Hotter is not better, and is bad. Higher temps don?t effectively kill bacteria until you get up to about 250. And you need to keep the substrate at these temps (160-170) for anywhere from 30 minutes to a week, depending on circumstances. For home mycology, 30 minutes seems to be sufficient, but many prefer to pasteurize for up to an hour. 5 minutes is likely to have done little to pasteurize the substrate. Sorry. Try again, you?ll get it.


--------------------
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PM me with any cultivation questions.

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OfflinePeyotl
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #614236 - 04/21/02 01:50 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

so... if one was to try this with a 96qt sterilite tub with the lid on, and fanned 2 times daily... it stands a chance of working? tubs are about 15 inches high, foot and a half wide and 3 feet long or so. a freind has grown cubies pf style in a 58qt tub with the exact same lid and has got great results. he used 2 inches of perlite. i figure the shit wil humidify itself mostly, and spraying the sides shoud help. what do you think?


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Invisiblemrdasani
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #614984 - 04/21/02 09:29 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Hmm, most likely when the pots of water were poured in the tub, they were around 160-170, I had checked with a temp gauge. It should be pretty good probablity that there is no threat of bacterial bloom.

My friend doesn?t want to risk exposing the substrate by opening up and looking to see for bacterial contamination so he just says cross ya fingers...

But I have a cam to take shots of the reults, in about one week I?ll post the bins and the colonization shots. I?ll private message you to let you know about the post though. Thanks for the info on the possible problems Mycofile! You rock!

Whenever you have time Mycofile, check out my first post on the pictures sections, you can see how funny that is compared to the results of every post after that (in the pictures section i mean). I believe my foaf does very well for someone who just started September of last year.



--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


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Offlinehumplok4201
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mrdasani]
    #615382 - 04/22/02 10:41 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

nice
may i ask how much was total dry weight after all flushes?
thanks


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mrdasani]
    #615386 - 04/22/02 10:44 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

> It should be pretty good probablity that there is no threat of bacterial bloom.

Hmmm... insta-expert, just add water. (sorry, couldn?t resist the poke)

> My friend doesn?t want to risk exposing the substrate by opening up and looking to see for bacterial contamination

If you have bacterial bloom, you probably wont notice it until it starts to eat the fruitbodies. Not a bad idea to leave the substrate container closed however.


--------------------
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Offlinetoolshroomer
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #617726 - 04/24/02 10:00 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

amazing man.. this is a GREAT post full of useful information... I can?t beleive it fruited so well in such unsteril conditions... thanks for the great post.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #618061 - 04/25/02 05:58 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Mycofile, I respect your methods and attitudes on cultivation greatly.

I am confused on the preparation of the bird seed.

For clarity for others you said:

"The grain is strained, rinsed and dried thoroughly before being loaded into the quart jar, ? full...When cool, the quart is injected with 12 cc?s peroxide, shaken and inoculated in front of a flow hood with a piece of the peroxidated agar."

I am understanding that you hydrated 1/2 qt birdseed w/ 12 cc?s peroxide. This does not seem to be sufficient for moisture levels.

Joshua


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Joshua]
    #618069 - 04/25/02 06:09 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

The grain is first simmered, then strained and "surface" dried.
So the inside of the grain is moist.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Joshua]
    #619500 - 04/26/02 04:01 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Oh yeah, that is a little confusing, huh?
Anno?s right. The grain is simmered for 30 minutes which hydrates it, put in a strainer/collander type thing, rinsed with cold water to rinse off any bird kote or crap from exploded grains, then allowed to drip dry in the strainer for a few minutes. At this point it is hydrated enough to be pressure cooked, but not so moist that the peroxide will be too much added moisture after pressure cooking. Hope that clarifies it for you.


--------------------
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PM me with any cultivation questions.

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OfflineiNdRbRA
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #623631 - 05/01/02 12:24 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

I am currently starting up some experiments using this method and PC Equadors...I?ll post my final results with pictures later on.


Ok, a few questions myco...

I decided not to use g2g and plan on innoculating the dung/straw with two 1 quart jars fully colonized with PC Equador. I also plan on doing a BRF/Verm grinding and using that also. Will this be enough? If possible, would you mind giving some insight into the best way to grind up a cake without contaminating it?

A question about pastuerising...If I leave the dung/straw in the can even after the temps have started dropping down...say overnight...do I risk problems with contam? (ie have I just put myself back to the beginning by leaving it overnight in the cool water?)

About casing: I know that I can case even without full colonization, is there a reason to let it colonize first then case?

With your colonization step...you said that you draped a black plastic sheet over the boxes and that it was perforated...how many perforations and what size holes? I assume something like poking holes with a pencil through a plastic sheet periodically throughout the sheet will suffice.

A question about the meaning of hydrating to field capacity...I assume that this means to the max point without water actually seeping out. (moist?)

With the fruiting steps: I have heard that approx. 12 hours of light is optimal for frowth, yet your method clearly shows that it is not nesscesary for good shroom growth...what do you think about leaving the cover off for longer to expose for more light?

Also, with misting, how moist should the shrooms get before you allow them to soak the water up? Visible moisture droplets too much?

When harvesting the fruits...approx how often did you have to worry about seaching for abhorts which needed to be removed?

Last thing...about pH how important do you think it is to adjust and does it change much with different strains? Thanks for your help.


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Offlinepaddo
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #624654 - 05/02/02 07:17 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

mycofile


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InvisibleSumGuy
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #624955 - 05/02/02 04:14 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Myco how do dry out that much? It seems like that would be hard.


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: SumGuy]
    #625137 - 05/02/02 08:14 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Dry what? The manure/straw?

If tahts what your talking about, yes, I would like to know as well I guess your not drying it, just making it not as wet persay?


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Invisiblemrdasani
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: SumGuy]
    #625175 - 05/02/02 09:06 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

i think u mean dry out the fruits? hang them by string and fan dry em in a closet. just like branches of cronic would be dried

my bulk spawn neglect method has not yet worked. im still waiting for signs of colonization of the spawn. one piece of good advice, dont jump the gun. if your still working on cakes and small casings with brown rice flour and vermiculite, try a small measure of dung and straw. i think by trying the biggest possible tek, i made too many opportunities of big failures. wish me luck.


--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
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"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


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Invisiblemrdasani
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mrdasani]
    #625260 - 05/02/02 11:09 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

if there is anyone out there that has experienced failure with spawning cowmanure/straw please reply? specifically im referring to the part when you check up on the manure/straw after a week of adding the substrate (colonized grains) to the dung/straw, and there is no signs of colonization...

the conditions that i speak of are: brown rice flour + vermiculite colonized ecuador strain (clone .... not multispore) spawned on to 25% cattle dung 75% wheat straw. The wheat straw and dung mix was pasturized at 160deg F for 45 minutes. So far it has been one week after spawning and there is what seems no colonization of the ecuador mycelium on the dung/straw. (from the view of the surface). It seems that the little crumbles of substrate did puff up with more mycelium, but didn?t "spawn" on to the dung.

I have a couple of guesses as to why this had happened. The pH of the dung. the dung was not fully composted (seemed a bit smelly. not too smelly. but a little) . the pasturization was not fully completed. But if anyone knows what my problem may be, or has experience the same problem, please....please! help me!.


--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


Edited by mrdasani (05/03/02 04:18 AM)


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InvisibleSumGuy
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mrdasani]
    #625508 - 05/03/02 07:42 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

sounds like bacteria ... especially if it smells funny


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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mrdasani]
    #625537 - 05/03/02 10:35 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

I have seen a friend with the exact problem. . .it could be bacterial, or ?lack of? bacterial; Poor quality worm castings will do the same thing. One way or the other, you need to adjust the substrate [pH, moisture, pasteurization tek] or find something else entirely. Once he tried some dried out cow pies he found up in the mountains and never went back! If the sub is good, colonization should spring off very quickly. If bacteria/pH are too much askew, even the grains themselves won?t recover after spawning.
The best thing to do is play around with different sources, find something that works and stick with it.

Something that I think was a bit underemphasized [maybe?] in the responses to this success is the level of the casing relative to its container. Many large rubbermaid casings will fail primarily because the casing is sitting deep within a chamber [often airtight]. This favors CO2 stratification, usually requires some kind of manual work. The tray above, even when ?bagged?, is not within a well of plastic like in a typical rubbermaid system. Mycofile mentioned this, but it seems like a major physical difference from other systems and worth mentioning again.
Very nice and inspirational regardless!


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Invisiblemrdasani
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Suntzu]
    #626042 - 05/03/02 10:07 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

hmm, i think i got some new alterations and modifications that may help improve the chance of my sucess.

1) Replace thick rubermaid bins with just simple cardboard box with a plasic trash bag wrapped around it, as shown in the picture.

2) test out small ammounts of dung/straw to see if the pH and bacterial level is correct. then move on to bigger ammounts.

mycofile, about the second modification, i wanted to know if you took any pre-steps to make sure the dung/straw would work. like such as checking the pH or making a small (very small) ammount your first time. I am guess that I should just get about 2 pints worth of dung and try that ammount to see if spawning will work like that next time.

Thanks SumGuy and Suntzu for your help !

I am thinking about what to do about finding out how to make sure i find dung with proper bacteria (or whatever necessary) in it.

Oh I hope this isn?t important , but I think the dung I shoveled up are from cattle, ....that is the same as cow right? Or is there a big difference?


--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: SumGuy]
    #626064 - 05/03/02 10:53 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

I am posting this on behalf of Mycofile:

From: mycofile
Received: 03/19/02 05:18 PM
In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A couple of weeks ago I asked about your drying tek after I saw some of your beauties. You told me about a double screen set-up using desicant. I am interested in this, could you elaborate, specifically on the use of the desicant? I have used it before, it turns to mush. Is that what you experienced?

Joshua



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not sure about the post you?re referencing, but I?d be glad to discuss drying. Dessicant does turn mushy, or more correctly dissolves as it absorbs water. If the dessicant is on a screen, the water (and some dissolved dessicant) drips away from the dessicant which maintains the life of the dessicant as well as the efficiency of the dessicant (a puddle with dessicant floating in it doesn?t dry much). The desolved dessicant is a nasty solution, impossible almost to clean if spilled. Dispose of it carefully.

Rig it up however you wish, and to the scale you desire. Basically you need a screen with dessicant on it over or in something (but raised above the bottom) that can collect the solution in the bottom. Damp rid, driveway heat, or a lab dessicant such as drieright all work well. Multiple layers of screen above the dessicant hold the fresh fruits. Use something (spacers, cheap open grid shelving etc) to keep the layers from touching. ShrooMart stores have cheap 3 level shelves for shoes or such that work alright. Or just use some 1X2 (depending on how bit you let your caps open you may need 1X4 or bigger) lumber and build square/rectangular frames to which you staple the screens. Not only does this keep the dessicant from touching the shrooms, but keeps the shrooms spaced apart for better airflow. If this is all in a large rubbermaid, make sure it?s airtight. If it?s a cheap shelf system or freestanding wooden structure, use large trash bags and twist ties to keep everything sealed AIR TIGHT.

Generally, for X area of dessicant you can dry several X area layers of fruits.

For more than a couple layers of fruit, or for faster more efficient drying, add a small fan to the dessicant chamber. Computer fans work great, and can be rigged if DC, or used esily if they are AC. The addition of the fan is essential for drying large amounts of fruit, or in situations where the surface area of the dessicant isn?t as great as the layer(s) of fruits. Placement of fan not essential. Try to maximize air flow over fruits, but it?s not that important, just get air circulating inside there.

So, from bottom to top: Collection of solution area (rigging a drain of sorts might be called for depending), screen with dessicant, some air space, screen for fruits, some air space, screen for fruits, repeat as needed. A fan anywhere that it won?t get wet is optional but highly recomended. Keep it all sealed air tight, resisting the urge to check as much as possible. Just let it sit for a few days unless you need to add more fruits.

Some people are lucky and live in areas of low humidity where they can open air fan dry. That doesn?t work too well if you happen to have 95% ambient humidity the entire week after a flush. This info is for those people. Not the ones who always jump in a thread and say-"I just put them between some paper towels and they?re dry in a day!"

Any questions? How about posting this in whatever thread we were originally in if you can find it so that others may join. I love PM?s, but I like public discussion better. Thanks.


--------------------
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Offlinehermes3
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #629074 - 05/13/02 12:56 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Myco, Thanks for taking the voodoo out of bulk growing. I?ve used similiar techniques as yours for a while. Instead of the single sheet of black plastic I use one layer of opaque plastic covered with another layer of the black. Once pinning begins the black is removed and the opaque allows light to enter during the day (I?m not restricted to a bedroom closet for my grow area). I have also only used good old and simple rye grain for my innoculant. Always seemed the neatest and easiest to work with. If I were to advise anyone about mushroom growing(or anything else for that matter) is be very clean, meticulous, precise and gentle in the beginning and then let nature take it?s course.


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OfflineAngel_Magic79
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #631073 - 05/15/02 12:43 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Great Job!!! Shrooms are pretty with not much effort. Mycofile - will you be writing a step by step tek for the Shroomeries grow cubensis section?

Happy Shroomen & Enjoy


--------------------
ShroomChicks WANTED!!!
Preferably 18 to 21 years old.
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Please PM me with a current PIC!
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***FEMALES ONLY***


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InvisibleBeautifulDay
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #631621 - 05/15/02 01:32 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

So has anyone else tried this? This has been one of the most popular posts in this forum for weeks now, and I see lots of questions and kudos but dont tell me that my FOAF is the first to attempt to replicate!!! Pics will be posted in a few weeks.... anyone want to race?
Ciao,
BeautifulDay


--------------------
The thin line between genius and insanity is known only by those who cross it.


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OfflineShroomasta
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: BeautifulDay]
    #632090 - 05/15/02 06:51 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

one of my friends has tried to replicate this and came into great contam problems. He believes that it might have been due to pasteurization issues, but he never even got to case it. The initial colonization of the straw/dung killed the boxes he was trying. Maybe later on he will try again. Any other experiences?


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Shroomasta]
    #632214 - 05/15/02 08:24 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

A dude of mine has about 20 boxes (2 1/2? X 2 1/2? X 6") and 40 trays (1 1/2? X 2 1/2? X 4") in a growroom, using pretty much all the same method as Mycotek, cept not using the top plastic for retaining the humidity in. Things are going well. Casing will be added within the next 48 hours as the manure/straw mixture has been well established.

Another experiment has been with just using a rubbermaid container with 2 (3" diameter) holes filled with polyfill. This has been working well. I think Ive seen it done here before.

You ran into contams basically because you were probably not careful enough with the dung mixture, as it does contam somewhat easily. Pasturization could be a problem of course

I?m trying to get some pics soon. Will post when ready. Im guessing in the next week or so.



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OfflineAngel_Magic79
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: angryshroom]
    #632317 - 05/15/02 10:51 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Say your using a rubbermaid container with 7in base substrate & 2in casing layer with coolmist pumping in fresh air right over substrate & filter holes on the other side at a height 1/2 in above where the casing is- would you get proper air exchange without having to worry about Co2 build up?


--------------------
ShroomChicks WANTED!!!
Preferably 18 to 21 years old.
Brunett & AVERAGE weight(I Stress)!!!
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Yours truly Mr. Angel- AKA. MOJO MAN
***FEMALES ONLY***


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Angel_Magic79]
    #632548 - 05/16/02 06:19 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

You will want to drill several small drain holes into the bottom of the rubbermaid container. The holes allow any carbon dioxide gas or excess water trapped in the substrate to drain out the bottom. Without the holes, even with good air exchange, the co2 will build up in the substrate due to the substrate?s thickness and the nonpermiability of the rubbermaid material.


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Seuss]
    #632659 - 05/16/02 08:02 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Suess, I?ve never heard of that one before, but I guess it makes sense. Have you heard of othe rpeople trying this?

I would think it would be more able to harbour contams with open holes like that below the substrate. I thought colonization of mycelium needs the extra c02, and isint a problem with built up c02 underneath the substrate?!


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OfflineAngel_Magic79
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Seuss]
    #633731 - 05/16/02 10:50 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Suess, Thankyou for answering my question- I have posted a new thread
about Co2 buildup in the advanced cultivation forum & you would be the man
to answer these questions.

Thankyou for all the help & have a shroomy day


--------------------
ShroomChicks WANTED!!!
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Invisiblemrdasani
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Angel_Magic79]
    #633864 - 05/17/02 04:48 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

A foaf had just completely avoided the damn cow dung this time. The straw seems to work so much better alone right now. I want to go look for more dung but its not necessary really.

I have one comment I?d like to say about CO2 build up, I find from my experience with the myco enviroment, that it may not be entirely necessary to fan frequently.

I have seen different ratio enviorment casing situations and the depth of the edge of a container would actually be higher than the level of casing, the CO2 would be trapped since it is heavier than O2. But I noticed that fanning only once a day would remedy this situation. A light misting of luke warm water mix with a little Hydrogen Peroxide would balance the humidity.

I am certain that if one was to go about this large ratio, CO2 is not a concern.

By the way, a f.o.a.f. is also trying this depth ratio but he is using straw only. It is funny, blades of what appears to be straw that germinated after pastuerization have appeared. He was hoping that this would not mess with anything. He kind of hoped that the blades would take in enough CO2 aswell. Its interesting none the less.


--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


Edited by mrdasani (05/17/02 04:55 AM)


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OfflinePsycoMyco
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #633882 - 05/17/02 05:11 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

How much spawn was used to inoc that 2x2 box of substrate?


--------------------
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: angryshroom]
    #633896 - 05/17/02 05:31 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

> Suess, I?ve never heard of that one before, but I guess it makes sense. Have you heard of othe rpeople trying this?

Nope, just something my friend picked up through trial and error. When using cardboard boxes she never had any problems... fast growing mycelium and no contamination. When she switched to the rubbermaid style containers the mycelium would grow good for a day or two and then stall out. Soon after bacterial contamination would set in and the entire thing would be lost. After drilling several small drain holes in the bottom of the container, her problems went away.

> I thought colonization of mycelium needs the extra c02

Yep, this is correct, but "extra" is not 100%. I honestly don?t know what made the difference... if it was the increased gas exchange through the substrate or the ability for any excess water to drain.


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OfflineShroomasta
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: angryshroom]
    #634373 - 05/17/02 01:24 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

My firend left the boxes that he made for a while to work with some rye jars that were having problems and just recently went back to looking at the boxes. It seems that aside from the tops drying out and essentially stopping all growth of anything, the bottoms have colonized quite nicely. He was wondering if it is now possible to just remove the top "casing" layer of dung and recase with say coco coir/verm or some other casing to try and continue with the boxes. Do remember that it is possible that contams made it below the surface and he may not have noticed it. He just wants to know if he should dump the boxes even with very good stong growth on teh dung/straw below the surface. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.


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OfflineAngel_Magic79
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Seuss]
    #634866 - 05/17/02 10:18 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Thankyou Suess!!!

Anyone who would like to go into greater detail about Co2 exchange please
jump to:

http://shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum4&Number=633727&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1

Thanks & Happy Shroom?en



--------------------
ShroomChicks WANTED!!!
Preferably 18 to 21 years old.
Brunett & AVERAGE weight(I Stress)!!!
Please PM me with a current PIC!
Yours truly Mr. Angel- AKA. MOJO MAN
***FEMALES ONLY***


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Offlinephishyfriend
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #642565 - 05/24/02 01:02 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

wow mycofile great log i got some questions for you if you dont mind?
1>can you use plastic trash cans or is there a reason you used metal/ also when you let your stuff drain are you concerned with the fact that it would just be layin there drainin in your bath tub???
2>how much grain/birdseed would you recomened you say a bag but there are a few different size bags(jus wounderin)??
3>can you describe how much plastic you used to line the box and how you perferated the top plastic?did you tape the liner in or just let it chill?did you sterilize the plastic?
4>were you concerned with contamination when you aired them out?did you mist alot?
thank you for you time i hope these arent petty questions


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: phishyfriend]
    #665385 - 06/06/02 07:05 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I must apologize for my absence of late. Very busy at work, and I?ve got plenty of bills to work for. Anyway, I?ll completely update this thread with answers to all questions tonight. Sorry to take so long...


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Offlinephishyfriend
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #665730 - 06/06/02 10:50 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

i got some more questions
1....did you have any problem initiating pinning ?even if you did?nt how would you suggest getting it to pin if troubles accured?
2....have you had many contamination problems with this procedure?
3....could you use just vermiculite without coir? why do you use coir?
4....when you are letting the straw/dung drain do you do this in just your bath tub?
5.....how much spawn do you use, and would rye be fine
thats about all. sorry your so busy but it must be nice to have a big paycheck. if i think of any thing else ill post before you answer these tonight


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Offlinephishyfriend
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: phishyfriend]
    #665749 - 06/06/02 11:07 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

6....do you mist the spawn at all?do you mist the casing at all?
7...how long should i wait till i case?
8...do you case a special way?
9...i dont understtand how the h202 is used, i know you only used it as a saftey precaution but i want to do the same precaution.any explination would be appreciated?
10..what kind of procedure did you follow when mixing the straw/dung with the grain, what did you mix it in?
11... after the straw layer was set ,did you put more grain on top then a layer of dung??
thats enough sorry for all the questions but thank you for relizing that you have a lot to offer by answering them


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Invisiblemrdasani
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #667208 - 06/07/02 10:35 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

heeeeeey mycofile welcome back to this thread! i thought u were gone for good! once again, thanks for your grow log on the bulk neglect. some idiots threw out my straw . Im at a loss for bulk material! what a damn shame!


--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mrdasani]
    #676109 - 06/13/02 07:42 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

OK, finally a few minutes....
iNdRbRA
In reply to:

plan on innoculating the dung/straw with two 1 quart jars fully colonized with PC Equador. I also plan on doing a BRF/Verm grinding and using that also. Will this be enough? If possible, would you mind giving some insight into the best way to grind up a cake without contaminating it?



Amount of spawn depends on the area and depth of the bulk sub. Some people say a pint per sq ft. is sufficient, I lean more towards a quart jar per sq. ft. The extra spawn speeds colonization which prevents contams from having time to get established. It also provides a large nutrient boost to the relatively poor straw. Ground cakes go a long way. Adding just one would probably allow you to cut your grain spawn in half, but you won?t get the nutritioun boost. Grind the cakes in a clean blender or coffee grinder, just make sure they are absolutly positivly colonized first.
In reply to:

A question about pastuerising...If I leave the dung/straw in the can even after the temps have started dropping down...say overnight...do I risk problems with contam? (ie have I just put myself back to the beginning by leaving it overnight in the cool water?)



Don?t do that for a few reasons. One, the moisture content of your bulk substrate will be too high. You don?t want it that soggy. Two, the tea that is made by pasteurizing dung/straw is not as selective a media as the dung/straw itself is. The tea is much more contaminant prone than the sub itself.
In reply to:

About casing: I know that I can case even without full colonization, is there a reason to let it colonize first then case?



I wouldn?t do that because the casing will not colonize evenly. The substrate doesn?t colonize evenly, and therefore the mycelium will spread from the sub to the casing earlier in some places than others. this will result in uneven pin sets, overlay and stroma problems, ultimately affecting yield.
In reply to:

With your colonization step......how many perforations and what size holes?



Thats a hard one for me. I know from experience what?s right, and just poked holes untill I thought it sufficient. I think Shroomgod?s straw tek gives specifics which is where I first learned straw and perforating plastic. I refer you there.
In reply to:

A question about the meaning of hydrating to field capacity...I assume that this means to the max point without water actually seeping out. (moist?)



Not sure if field capacity really is the right word. It?s a term I was taught when I was first learning about casings. I use it to refer to the correct moisture level where squeezing a handful really hard will cause some water to seep from between your fingers, but not much. In fact, with a coir/verm casing, most of that water will be sucked back into the mix when you release pressure. Moist, but not wet. You don?t want to be able to ring it out like a saturated sponge.
In reply to:

With the fruiting steps: I have heard that approx. 12 hours of light is optimal for frowth, yet your method clearly shows that it is not nesscesary for good shroom growth...what do you think about leaving the cover off for longer to expose for more light?



Starting years ago when hip and I were playing around with colonizing pf jars in light, I learned that much of what you read about light and shrooms is bullshit. I don?t think more light would be beneficial in that it would noticably affect yield, fruit size, time schedule or anything else. It would help if you were growing gnarly, crooked, bent stemmed shrooms. A little light a day is obviously sufficient for great results. Remember, even black plastic from trash bags allows some light through. Removing that plastic for a little while a day to care for and ponder the marvel of your fruits is enough.
In reply to:

Also, with misting, how moist should the shrooms get before you allow them to soak the water up? Visible moisture droplets too much?



I don?t understand this question. It?s not the shrooms you are misting, its the casing surface. You want to keep the casing at a similar moisture level to the way you prepared it initially.
In reply to:

When harvesting the fruits...approx how often did you have to worry about seaching for abhorts which needed to be removed?



I harvest everything within the same day. I may give some a few more hours to grow, but not more than that. When all the large fruits are harvested, I pick anything you can get without touching the casing. Anything else stays. It won?t rot like many fear, but actually fluff back up like mycelium. Just pick them at the end of each flush harvest.
In reply to:

Last thing...about pH how important do you think it is to adjust and does it change much with different strains?



I?ve never noticed a big difference in pH susceptability from strain to strain. I?m sure there are exceptions to that, but I?ve never noticed it. pH in general is pretty important, but within ranges. Most common substrates and casing formulas can be used without worrying too much about pH. One thing to remember is that most contams favor a slightly acidic environment, while cubes favor slightly basic one. Might as well stack the deck in your favor while you can.

Boss came in, I?ll answer every other question in this thread later this afternoon, promise!




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PM me with any cultivation questions.

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InvisibleDrD525
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: paddo]
    #676748 - 06/13/02 03:24 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

WAY COOL!


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: DrD525]
    #685205 - 06/18/02 07:02 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

All right.....
In reply to:

Myco how do dry out that much? It seems like that would be hard.



Well, Joshua shared a PM I sent him which basically describes it. The key is the combination of fan and dessicant methods. Probably the easiest way is with a 20" box fan, some 20" square frames of 1X(2,3 or 4) lumber depending, screen for the wood frames, the cheapest dessicant you can get your hands on, a tub to drain the dessicant in, and a way (big trash bag if nothing else) to seal the whole setup air tight. Wish I had pics, but I think you get the idea, especially if you read Joshua?s post above.

Mr. Dasani wrote
In reply to:

the conditions that i speak of are: brown rice flour + vermiculite colonized ecuador strain (clone .... not multispore) spawned on to 25% cattle dung 75% wheat straw. The wheat straw and dung mix was pasturized at 160deg F for 45 minutes. So far it has been one week after spawning and there is what seems no colonization of the ecuador mycelium on the dung/straw. (from the view of the surface). It seems that the little crumbles of substrate did puff up with more mycelium, but didn?t "spawn" on to the dung.



One thing in my experience that can do that is an overly wet substrate. How well did you drain the substrate? pH could cause the problem as well as using fresh dung. Unfortunately I really can?t pin it down any closer, because all those things will have the similar result. No colonization. Sorry, better luck next time.

mrdasani wrote:
In reply to:

mycofile, about the second modification, i wanted to know if you took any pre-steps to make sure the dung/straw would work. like such as checking the pH or making a small (very small) ammount your first time.



Hehehe. Yeah, before these pictures were taken, I did a few years worth of tests which verified the quality of my straw and dung sources. I don?t recall ever testing the pH or anything, but I did grow many times in very similar manners.
In reply to:

I am thinking about what to do about finding out how to make sure i find dung with proper bacteria (or whatever necessary) in it.



All dung has some bacteria in it, and I don?t know of any special bacteria that might be in some poo that won?t be in others. I think the key isn?t the source, but the age. If the pies you are using smell, they aren?t old enough. Propper cow pies should smell like dirt when they are broken up. Maybe a little mushroomy, but absolutely not stinky.
In reply to:

the dung I shoveled up are from cattle, ....that is the same as cow right?



so far as I know cows and cattle are the exact same thing. Kinda like the difference between humans and people.

Angel Magic 79 wrote:
In reply to:

Great Job!!! Shrooms are pretty with not much effort. Mycofile - will you be writing a step by step tek for the Shroomeries grow cubensis section?



I don?t think so. I really don?t view this as a tek. There are some things I would do differently, and there are others that I?m not sure are perfect. Seeing as how I can?t do further experiments, I think this is all that it is, a grow log. Anno has asked for a clean up copy to be posted in the grow section, and I think thats fine. I?m just not comfortable calling it a tek. Really it?s just a way to half-assedly do conventional cultivation and still get decent results. So yes, there will be a clean-up copy, but no I won?t call it a tek.

suntzu wrote:
In reply to:

Something that I think was a bit underemphasized [maybe?] in the responses to this success is the level of the casing relative to its container. Many large rubbermaid casings will fail primarily because the casing is sitting deep within a chamber [often airtight]. This favors CO2 stratification, usually requires some kind of manual work. The tray above, even when ?bagged?, is not within a well of plastic like in a typical rubbermaid system. Mycofile mentioned this, but it seems like a major physical difference from other systems and worth mentioning again



I think you are right. The sides of the trays should not be much higher than the casing level, allowing co2 to drain off. I believe that was underemphasized as well.

mr dasani wrote
In reply to:

I have one comment I?d like to say about CO2 build up, I find from my experience with the myco enviroment, that it may not be entirely necessary to fan frequently.



To a certain extent you are right, but it depends entirely on the scale you are growing on, and the environment you are growing in. A small closet having 1/4 of it?s total volume full of bulk substrates is going to require much more fresh air than a tray or two sitting in a large room. In TMC stamets talks about "micro cultivation" methods where opening a terrerium to fan once aday is sufficient. The line between micro-cultivation and it?s forgiveness blurs as one progresses in cultivation techniques and scale. This is one of the biggest reasons to head YMMV disclaimers because everyone?s situation is a little different.

psycomyco wrote:
In reply to:

How much spawn was used to inoc that 2x2 box of substrate?



A big ass bag of spawn. I really can?t remember, but a lot more than was needed was used. I may not have even measured it in cups or anything, simply eyeballed more than I needed and used that. When you are working with grain to grain transfers, bags instead of jars, and peroxide for protection, you can very easily create more spawn than you know what to do with. Sorry for not having a better answer but this is a log, not a tek. For future reference I would recomend using a pint or more per square foot if using relatively small grains like rye or millet. The more the merrier.
shroomasta wrote:
In reply to:

He just wants to know if he should dump the boxes even with very good stong growth on teh dung/straw below the surface. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.



well, I?m sure I?m too late to help, but I would have suggested just misting the top layer to see if it would colonize. You could pull it off it you wanted to, but you can always do that later if it doesn?t start to colonize after you rehydrate the top layer.




--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisibleralphster44
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #685270 - 06/18/02 07:29 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.


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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #685289 - 06/18/02 07:38 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

And for my phishyphriend:
In reply to:

1>can you use plastic trash cans or is there a reason you used metal/ also when you let your stuff drain are you concerned with the fact that it would just be layin there drainin in your bath tub???



I?ve used large 55 gallon plastic pickle barrells before, so I assume you can use plastic trash can. Never really worried about it being in the tub. Of course the tub was relatively clean. Not fit to eat off of, but not full of mold and shit.
In reply to:

2>how much grain/birdseed would you recomened you say a bag but there are a few different size bags(jus wounderin)??



I think I answered this above. I used the largest bags I could find. Sometimes they were from FP, sometimes other places. I had these enormous bags with 2 filter patches that I used sometimes, I have no idea where I got them. So far as recomendations, I would use at least a pint per square foot. Actually, that?s what I?d recomend. Personally I would use AT LEAST a quart per square foot. But I liked overkill.
In reply to:

3>can you describe how much plastic you used to line the box and how you perferated the top plastic?did you tape the liner in or just let it chill?did you sterilize the plastic?



I think it was a couple (2-3) layers of plastic bags to line the boxes. It was taped around the outside where it folded down a few inches. Clear packing tape was used. No plastic was sterilized, I?ve always been confidant in new unopened plastic products as being pretty clean. Top was perforated based on my judgement and experience (I eyeballed it) which was aquired from shroomgod?s advice on number and type of perforations in his straw tek. I don?t remember how to describe it, but I know it when I see it.
In reply to:

4>were you concerned with contamination when you aired them out?did you mist alot?



No, I wasn?t concerned with contamination when airing. In fact, I wasn?t particularly concerned with contamination at all becuase I didn?t really care if these succeeded. They were leftovers that didn?t get into the terrerium. I misted when the casing seemed dry (and to be honest that is, if I even checked it that day). Sometimes it may have been twice a day, but usually only once.
In reply to:

1....did you have any problem initiating pinning ?even if you did?nt how would you suggest getting it to pin if troubles accured?



I had no problem initiating pinning. If I did, I would have reexamined the environment, especially the lack of light. If you want general pinning procedures read TMC?s chapter on the subject. Post a specific question if you have one.
In reply to:

2....have you had many contamination problems with this procedure?


I haven?t done this since the original three experiments. Contamination did eventually set in after several to many flushes depending on the tray. One tray never contaminated after many flushes, a move to a new location, and eventually several outdoor flushes.
In reply to:

3....could you use just vermiculite without coir? why do you use coir?



Coir based casing rock and rip! I?ve never ever seen any casing mix that could come close to the speed and quality of growth in a coir based casing. Casing colonizations are about half time in a good coir based casing. Growth is exponentially more rhizomorphic. If you think vermiculite casings are fine, then you can use them. Personally I wouldn?t settle for fine when amazing is attainable.
In reply to:

4....when you are letting the straw/dung drain do you do this in just your bath tub?



I did in this case. You could do it outside, or in any other room of your house if you prefer.
In reply to:

5.....how much spawn do you use, and would rye be fine



already covered the amount question. Rye would of course be fine. For all practical purposes, grain is grain. It really depends on which one you can prepare correctly as to which one is best.
In reply to:

6....do you mist the spawn at all?do you mist the casing at all?



no you don?t mist spawn, yes you mist the casing
In reply to:

7...how long should i wait till i case?



have you ever grown before? you case when the substrate is colonized
In reply to:

8...do you case a special way?



everything I do is special...-j/k no.
In reply to:

9...i dont understtand how the h202 is used, i know you only used it as a saftey precaution but i want to do the same precaution.any explination would be appreciated?


The peroxide methods virtually eliminate the threat of contamination. I think they were described pretty clearly in the original post, especially if you?ve heard of the methods before. Do you have a specific question?
In reply to:

10..what kind of procedure did you follow when mixing the straw/dung with the grain, what did you mix it in?



Can you not imagine how you could mix spawn and substrate yourself? I used a large tub, mixed the grain and the substrate by hand, then put alternating layers of the substrate and more spawn into the fruiting container. How you do it isn?t really important. Simply get the spawn mixed in with the substrate withouth dropping it on the floor or wiping your ass with it. No real need to be ridiculously paranoid about cleanliness, but you can?t be too clean.
In reply to:

11... after the straw layer was set ,did you put more grain on top then a layer of dung??



I think the specific way I did it was to shake the top layer of dung with some grain spawn in a trash bag, spread it over the straw, then sprinkle the little bit of remaining grain over the top. Again, I don?t think this important, it?s just the way I did it. All you need to do is thoroughly mix the spawn with the substrate. I do like to have a little spawn directly on top of the top layer of substrate though, thinking that the sooner the top colonizes, the sooner it will act as a protective barrier for the rest of the tray.





--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Offlinephishyfriend
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #686682 - 06/18/02 07:29 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

yes mycofile ive grown plenty.....lol i was just wandering the exact method you used for my info and for every one else. this is a grow log right???????sorry if my questions were repeatitive but you didnt have to answer the same question twice.lol........i want to thank you for taking time to do this you truly have patince....i think....jk. anyways i hope everyone gets all the answers they need . i didnt mean to pester you with my questions but like i said (in so many words) i asked as many questions as me and my dog could think of. i see how it could have been takin as ignorance


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Anonymous

Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #686946 - 06/18/02 09:51 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Mycofile you are a great mycologist and have even answered the dumbest questions in this forum. I commend you. Those C02 drainage holes could be filters right? i don?t like the idea of holes in my terrium and i am not clear with what kind of dung is best fresh or kind that has set with alot of other dung and composted. I really don?t want to do trial and error with dung for awhile. When you say it stinks what do you mean . Cow shit stinks fresh and really doesn?t stink unfresh but you say that unfresh is what should be collected. Doesn?t bacteria die off in old dung too ? i was just wondering if building something to pasterize instead of sterilize a large amount of dung and straw is feasable. and if i did that would it ruin the bacteria and set me back to square one with hunting for more to just sterilize and hope that the shit works? thanks for your dedication this is a good grow guide to follow and i know my questions deviate from it but i want to know for my own personal mycological efforts to get that kind of success doubled in terr hopefully if that is even possible


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OfflineAngel_Magic79
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: phishyfriend]
    #687132 - 06/19/02 12:02 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

As always Mycofile- You are right- no excuses-Sorry - Angel



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Edited by Angel_Magic79 (06/21/02 11:51 AM)


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Offlinesledge
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: ralphster44]
    #687828 - 06/19/02 09:34 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I Tried your method with horse dung. I did not allow the mixture to drain overnight. I used a collander to drain excess water. I have strong mycellium growth but I seem to also have a problem with cob-wed mold. I used the hippie bleach method for two days and now I?m just using h2o2 water. I was wondering since I have such a stong mycellium growth (40% of substrate) should I Scrap the substrate and start over or is it possible that the mycellium will eventally take over the cob-web mold? The substrate was never sloppy wet but, I believe that the inproper draining of the substrate may be the cause of the cob-web mold and was wondering IF you agree. In addition I?ve lifted the cardboard box the substrate was in and attempted to drain any excess water and never had any pour out. What are your thoughts? thank you


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Offlinephishyfriend
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Angel_Magic79]
    #688197 - 06/19/02 01:25 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

actualy angel i have grown quite a bit not nearly as much as mycofile i dont care what you think i asked some questions that made since when i was stoned but then make me look like a retard. what i ment by misting the spawn ..is when hes done spawning and has mixed it with the 75-25 straw-dung does he mist it before he cases it .so yeah my questions were stupidly worded i was stoned my bad but i didnt know that your retarted ass was making sure my questions were worded correctly. you wish i was full of shit just so you can get me back cause i dissed you dumb ass coathanger terrium when a plastic bag on top is fine. also ive tried a veriation on this tek 2 months ago with not nearly the yeild mycofile produce or near the yeild i think your going to produce yeah you grew bulk nice pics but they look just like every other bulk tek with a dumb wire plastic frame so i guess i have to be quick on my toes but if your lookin for a flame ill wait for you to get stoned and dumb and write somthin stupid and ill refer you to the idiot proof pf tek. but ithought this was for learning, but i guess its all about what you want people to think so sorry to hurt you feelins on your wanna be set up. although i give you props for the progress your trays have made, i hope you choke on a slippery cubie.lol actually i wish you no harm cause id feel bad if you did..remember chew..so im glad you spend you time tryin to flame people so in saying that ill let you go on your way and mimic things with your "twist" when i thought it was common sense that a "dome" (which yourse is not cause its rectangular) surrounded by clear plastic is a terrarium no matter if it wire or wood.ect. you made it seem like you invented the terrarium. ha..so we all say stupid things and your the only person in the world with a cubical dome...


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: sledge]
    #691909 - 06/21/02 07:23 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I can?t say if it was the lack of draining which encouraged the cobweb or not. Mycology is a lot like quantum mechanics in that we don?t have causal relationships like in Newtonian physics, only probabilities of various outcomes. With so many factors affecting the probabilities, it?s difficult for me to say from here.

I would say that if you have cobweb, get rid of it. It?s not worth the affect on future experiments to try to milk out a few fruits. I?ve contaminated places so bad I had to move in order to grow anything, very inconvenient to say the least.

Put the box outside, or just burry the whole substrate mass. It will continue to grow, quite possibly overcoming the cobweb due to UV light and constant air exchange. Many times I?ve seen amazing flushes come from once contaminated bulk trays if they are put outside. Don?t risk your other experiments inside, where the cobweb has the advantage anyway.


--------------------
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PM me with any cultivation questions.

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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: Angel_Magic79]
    #691920 - 06/21/02 07:31 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Angel, hey man, you want to chill a little bit? No need to be so vulgar. I?ve never understood the mindset of "I?ll help people grow shrooms only if they already know how to grow shrooms". Yeah, there were some dumb questions in there, but they were asked to me, not you. I think my somewhat subtle digs in my replies were apparently sufficient to express that they were silly questions. Why do YOU feel like you should flame him for asking ME questions? Actually, don?t answer that, we?re far too off-topic already.

Let?s just suffice it to say that I wasn?t planning on writing a "tek" which would spell out all the specifics of how to do things, because many different ways are acceptable in a lot of cases. Most people aren?t familiar with that, and want someone to tell them how to grow down to the last detail. That?s fine. If it helps someone grow, or simply improves their view of mycology, then isn?t that why we?re here?


--------------------
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PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineShroomNewb
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report [Re: mycofile]
    #692700 - 06/21/02 03:21 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

You?re a righteous man indeed, Mycofile. ^^


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Invisibletrippy
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report *completed* [Re: mycofile]
    #753260 - 07/17/02 12:06 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Just wondering:

How many quart jars of grain would suffice if filter spawn bags are not used to innoculate the substrate given the exact same measurements ( 2? square and 8 inches deep) to house the mycellium given in your tek?



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Re: Bulk Neglect Report *completed* [Re: trippy]
    #799781 - 08/06/02 11:49 AM (20 years, 15 days ago)

I liked to use a quart jar per square foot. You can get by with as little as 1 quart per 8 sq. ft per stamets, but thats really only for commercial farmers who are worried about the cost of buying/procucing spawn. I wouldn?t recomend using less than a quart per 2 sq. ft.

The more spawn, the better, not just due to increased colonization times, but also to supplement the relatively low nutrition in straw.

BTW, I didn?t read back but I think I already answered that ? at least once.


--------------------
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PM me with any cultivation questions.

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Invisiblenonsence
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Re: Bulk Neglect Report *completed* [Re: mycofile]
    #801539 - 08/07/02 06:25 AM (20 years, 14 days ago)

great log mycofile. thanks

you stated
In reply to:

The chunk is rinsed in 3% H2O2, and placed in a small jar containing sterile distilled water and peroxide (roughly .0015% H2O2)



when you say the chunk is rinsed in 3% h2o2 do you mean straight drug store bought hydrogen peroxide that says 3% on the label, or do did you use store bought 3% h2o2 and then add 97 parts water to that. also, same question for the soaking in 0.0015% h2o2. i have read the Wayne book and his method would suggest that when you say 3% you mean strait store bought peroxide, but i have never tried using peroxide so i wanted to be sure.

also, did you bother to calculate the actual h2o2 concentration as Wayne suggests, or did you just trust the label... something tells me you didn?t bother to measure

thanks



Edited by nonsence (08/14/02 09:15 AM)


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