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The Gaia Hypothesis
    #5238466 -

Quote:
BELIEVING THE EARTH IS ALIVE MAY BE SCIENTIFIC AS WELL AS SIRITUAL

It's not exactly a new idea, or even one that has been taken seriously by most of the scientific community, but I still find it interesting, especially when taken from a Pagan point of view.
This idea was originally put forth by James Lovelock in the 1960s, and he published a book on the theory titled, "Gaia - A New Look at Life on Earth". He suggested that the Earth is alive, as a single organism. The flowing water, shifting land masses, and even the myriad of smaller living creatures (including us humans) are actually all parts of a larger living body. Much like how our own cells are part of our bodies, yet they are alive in their own right as well.

Pshaw, you say. The Earth is made up mostly of rock and other inanimate material. How could it possibly be alive? But think of a tree.

Much of what you see in a tree is actually dead. The outer bark and the inner wood of the trunk is all dead material. Only the new wood just under the bark is alive, and the leaves of course. You wouldn't think twice that a tree is a living being, would you?
I'll admit that the geological, biological concepts that make up this theory are complex, and beyond my complete understanding. But the general hypothesis seems simple enough. The central fact of the Gaia Hypothesis is that the planet regulates itself. The temperature and concentration of various gasses are constantly adjusting to keep levels at optimum for the sustaining of life. This form of homeostasis is a key feature when defining life.





http://paganwiccan.about.com/cs/environment/a/gaiahypothesis.htm


What are your thoughts on this hypothesis? Do you think it we'll ever be able to validate it, or do you think that it is exagerated to think of earth as a living organism, or what?


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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: exclusive58]
    #5238480 -

If you were a single cell in your brain, do you think you would be able to validate that you were a human being?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: exclusive58]
    #5238550 -

I have no problem viewing the Earth as an organism insofar as you would define a plant, tree, star, or even Galaxy as an organism. It is an entity that has a specific nature, and acts in accordance within its nature. As it is the sum of its parts, there are several other parts within it which interact with other parts of reality. Because there is no causal agent [read: volition] involved, any actions from such "organisms" are necessitated; they are metaphysically governed.

IMO, this seems to be more of an analogous description, rather than an actual definition.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: Icelander]
    #5238751 -

Icelander said:
If you were a single cell in your brain, do you think you would be able to validate that you were a human being?



lol, good question icelander. I always thought that the questions one brings to the table show more of one's intelligence than the given answers.

So the validation of the Gaia hypothesis is just out of our reach? Its just too big of a concept for us to fully grasp, we don't have the mental/psychological/spiritual capacities to do so?


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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: exclusive58]
    #5238769 -

BELIEVING THE EARTH IS ALIVE MAY BE SCIENTIFIC

New Age mumbo jumbo loves to redefine already-defined stuff and erroneously call made up things science.

Part of the ALREADY-DEFINED word 'life' is that a living thing must reproduce and respond to stimulus (among other things).

The Earth doesn't make any other planets, so it does not reproduce, and it does not respond to stimulus either. It is a collection of inanimate object with life ON it.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (01/29/06 02:17 PM)

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5238795 -

SkorpivoMusterion said:
As it is the sum of its parts, there are several other parts within it which interact with other parts of reality. Because there is no causal agent [read: volition] involved, any actions from such "organisms" are necessitated; they are metaphysically governed.



So you're saying that humans, which can be considered as parts of the sum of Gaia, are metaphysically governed and do not have any free will, simply so that Gaia can continue to sustain life and maintain its homeostasy?
I think this thesis is can easily be refuted by observing how humans negatively affect the environment and destroy many of the living organisms and the habitats.


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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: exclusive58]
    #5238806 -

So you're saying that humans, which can be considered as parts of the sum of Gaia, are metaphysically governed and do not have any free will, simply so that Gaia can continue to sustain life and maintain its homeostasy?

No, when I was writing that, I was thinking exclusively of the Earth, just as I wouldn't bother to include a ladybug as a plant's sum of its parts, merely because it is on the plant.

The very reason I made explicit the metaphysical governing was for the sake of implicit contrast between us - beings which do have a causal agent; volition.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: exclusive58]
    #5238825 -

It depends on your definition of life.

Is fire alive? Are stars? Galaxies? Viruses? How far down can we go, and how far up?

Everything is made of the same constituents, the same protons, atoms, molecules. Go up far enough, and life seems to have cells (or, in the case of bacteria, be cells). If you use that as a general rule of thumb, the earth is simply a little flat for cells to move through- most of it is lava, superheated rock, water, dirt.

I think issues of life arise because there is no set definition for life, or how we separate life from non-life. Many scientifically non-living objects show traits that we consider to be life-like, such as viruses and fires. Other times, it's hard to tell the difference between the organism itself, and the environment around it, as the organism processes the environment to survive.

I don't believe the Gaia hypothesis in its strictest forms. I don't think the earth has consciousness or that it acts as a single organism, but only exhibits these traits because of the homeostasis that the will to power of its constituent organisms exhibits. But I also don't believe the lines between organisms and non-life are black and white.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: Diploid]
    #5238843 -

Diploid said:
BELIEVING THE EARTH IS ALIVE MAY BE SCIENTIFIC

New Age mumbo jumbo loves to redefine already-defined stuff and erroneously call made up things science.



Ya well i hate you deny the possibility of Gaia just because the New Age movement adopted the theory. There are lots of scientists who are working on the questions raised by this hypothesis, and I think that the best part of it is that it led the way to new experiments and new observations so that we can better understand our planet. And what has gotten out of all of this is that Earth definitely behaves like some kind of cell, or organism, or super organism.

Quote:
Part of the ALREADY-DEFINED word 'life' is that a living thing must reproduce and respond to stimulus (among other things.



hehe, i'd like to answer that one for you, but since i don't have much time, i'll wait and see if anyone else has an idea of how you may be wrong here. (and the other things you mention DO apply to earth)


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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: exclusive58]
    #5238863 -

Ya well i hate you deny the possibility of Gaia just because the New Age movement adopted the theory.

It's not a theory because it can't be tested and it can't be falsified.

It's made up junk.

There are lots of scientists who are working on the questions raised by this hypothesis

What questions are those?

And what has gotten out of all of this is that Earth definitely behaves like some kind of cell, or organism, or super organism.

Cells ingest, reproduce, breath, excrete, respond to stimuli, lots more. What does the Earth do that is like a cell?

It is an inanimate object. Its component (ocean, land mass, atmosphere) respond passively to whatever happens to it. Calling a rock alive because it "responds" by breaking apart when I hit it with a sledge hammer is a huge leap of the New Age mumbo jumbo mindset.

i'd like to answer that one for you, but

Way to duck the issue.

That the exact definition of life is in flux should be no surprise. This is the nature of science (biology): to change in the face of new evidence. However, none of the variations of the definition of life include planets.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: exclusive58]
    #5238865 -

This is a paper written by Lovelock, the original founder of the Gaia hypothesis. He makes some very interesting points and observations. A must-read  :grin:

Quote:
Most of us sense that the Earth is more than a sphere of rock with a thin layer of air, ocean and life covering the surface. We feel that we belong here as if this planet were indeed our home. Long ago the Greeks, thinking this way, gave to the Earth the name Gaia or, for short, Ge. In those days, science and theology were one and science, although less precise, had soul. As time passed this warm relationship faded and was replaced by the frigidity of the schoolmen. The life sciences, no longer concerned with life, fell to classifying dead things and even to vivisection. Ge was stolen from theology to become no more the root from which the disciplines of geography and geology were named. Now at last there are signs of a change. Science becomes holistic again and rediscovers soul, and theology, moved by ecumenical forces, begins to realise that Gaia is not to be subdivided for academic convenience and that Ge is much more than just a prefix.



The new understanding has come from going forth and looking back to see the Earth from space. The vision of that splendid white flecked blue sphere stirred us all, no matter that by now it is almost a visual cliche. It even opens the mind's eye, just as a voyage away from home enlarges the perspective of our love for those who remain there.



The first impact of those voyages was the sense of wonder given to the astronauts and to us as we shared their experience vicariously through television, but at the same time the Earth was viewed from outside by the more objective gaze of scientific instruments. These devices were quite impervious to human emotion yet they also sent back the information that let us see the Earth as a strange and beautiful anomaly. They showed our planet is made of the same elements and in much the same proportions as are Mars and Venus, but they also revealed our sibling planets to be bare and barren and as different from the Earth as a robin from a rock.



We now see that the air, the ocean and the soil are much more than a mere environment for life; they are a part of life itself. Thus the air is to life just as is the fur to a cat or the nest for a bird. Not living but something made by living things to protect against an otherwise hostile world. For life on Earth the air is our protection against the cold depths and fierce radiations of space.



There is nothing unusual in the idea of life on Earth interacting with the air, sea and rocks, but it took a view from outside to glimpse the possibility that this combination might consist of a single giant living system and one with the capacity to keep the Earth always at a state most favorable for the life upon it.



An entity comprising a whole planet and with a powerful capacity to regulate the climate needs a name to match. It was the novelist William Golding who proposed the name Gaia. Gladly we accepted his suggestion and Gaia is also the name of the hypothesis of science which postulates that the climate and the composition of the Earth always are close to an optimum for whatever life inhabits it.



The evidence gathered in support of Gaia is now considerable but as is often the way of science, this is less important than is its use as a kind of looking glass for seeing the world diferently, and which makes us ask new questions about the nature of Earth.



If we are "all creatures great and small," from bacteria to whales, part of Gaia then we are all of us potentially important to her well being. We knew in our hearts that the destruction of a whole ranges of other species was wrong but now we know why. No longer can we merely regret the passing of one of the great whales, or the blue butterfly, nor even the smallpox virus. When we eliminate one of these from Earth, we may have destroyed a part of ourselves, for we also are a part of Gaia.



There are many posibilities for comfort as there are for dismay in contemplating the consequences of our membership in this great commonwealth of living things. It may be that one role we play is as the senses and nervous system for Gaia. Through our eyes she has for the first time seen her very fair face and in our minds become aware of herself. We do indeed belong here. The earth is more than just a home, it's a living system and we are part of it.





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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: exclusive58]
    #5238890 -

That paper reinforces my point that the Earth is not alive.

Gaia is about ecosystems terraforming their environment, not about the Earth being alive.

If we put plants on Mars and they start to release oxygen atoms from the carbon-dioxide atmosphere, and if eventually that turns the planet into an Earth-like garden, it is because the plants (the life) converted a dead rock (the planet).

The planet remains a dead rock with life ON it.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5238900 -

ahh, i see. so, metaphysically speaking ( :wink: ), why would our planet take the risk of sustaining life to beings who have a "causal agent", since it has revealed to be very dangerous to all other beings? why not continue life with everything being metaphysically governed?

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: exclusive58]
    #5239006 -

why would our planet take the risk of sustaining life to beings who have a "causal agent", since it has revealed to be very dangerous to all other beings?

You are still personalizing the planet. The planet makes no choices; it is governed by metaphysical laws of existence, e.g., cause and effect, identity, and so forth.
Like Diploid said: The planet remains a dead rock with life ON it.

"Take the risk" of sustaining humans? Ha! Why would this six billion, trillion tons of silicon, nickel and iron in the third orbit around the sun ? a sphere that has endured 5 billion years of asteroid impacts, volcanoes, ice ages, and having its core knocked out and into orbit, "take the risk" of sustaining humans? Please!



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5239151 -

first off diploid your too hung up on teh idea of Gaia being rocks, you must think of the rocks as the dead wood of the tree, truly inert just as you said, but LIFE is Gaia, think of Gaia as like a mass consciousness of all life. At least thats how I see it. A dead rock could care less what happens to it, its a rock, but life has a will to survive and must live in balance for this to happen as evidenced by the massive die offs and the resultant reemergence of life every time. This is the will of Gaia.

If a tree has a dead limb will it not drop it? did the tree think to do that? this is like a species going extinc that no longer has a place. Will a new branch not grow into the open space to take advantage of the sun? This is as a new species evovling.


Cells do respond to stimuli, and so does the Earth, global warming is a good example neither usually respond the way a human would ASSUME they would however...

does the Earth reproduce? perhaps perhaps chuncks have broken off and cossed stars only to seed other worlds with life, bacteria can survive the trip through space on a meteorite it has been proven.

Does Life not consume teh dead and use it for nutrition(come on man think lion king)

Life excretes death which is used by life and back to the lion king again.

Life builds the earth, coral reefs million year old piles of dead coral, and life depends on the earth for its needs. So life must PROTECT the earth to survive which is its Numero Uno priority. Problem is nowadays we have made it harder adn harder for nature to take us out, but even still we have polluted this world enought that it is responding to that by becoming more extreme in its weather patterns. THis is in direct response to the stimuli we have induced on it, and it also the first time in human history that any animal has had the ABILITY to influence the huge interconnected and interdepdent system of Life with Earth to point of upsetting the careful balance.

Humans are like a sickly dieing limb on the tree that will not yet let go. Its a HEAVY limb, adn if it doesnt come off soon it will pass its sickness on to the rest of the tree and if it does not release its hold soon it will pull that tree to ground with it.

just because humans have made it this long do not assume they will be along forever. I sort of think of Gaia(remember i think of it as a mass consciousness of all life and the balance of nature) as being the will of GOD, perhaps it even IS God. This is something I cannot say, but I know this much God is slow to anger, but he is never too late. If balance is upset one should not be surprised that The Dynamic Earth would respond accordingly(though without will or control.) The Earth has fury, but I get the feeling that if one were to turn on the fury(which we are doing now with global warming and whatnot) it is as hard a switch to turn off as to get moving. This is only the beginning, will it be the end of Humans? of course not we are clever, adn will survive, but it should show us our place I think.

We are only just now picking up the first mumbles and groans as it streches out of its sleep I think, but only time will tell. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: blaze2]
    #5239199 -

you must think of the rocks as the dead wood of the tree

This isn't even close to a true analogy. The dead wood of a tree was once alive. Rocks are just rocks.

does the Earth reproduce? perhaps perhaps chuncks have broken off and cossed stars only to seed other worlds with life, bacteria can survive the trip through space on a meteorite it has been proven.

Err, that's LIFE reproducing, not the Earth. No new baby Earths come out of the Earth.

Cells do respond to stimuli, and so does the Earth, global warming is a good example

Again you make huge leaps to accommodate your made up ideas.

The Earth does not 'respond' to anything any more than a rock responds to being hit with a hammer. Both are passive objects to which things occur. This contrasts with a single-cell organism like a bacteria that ACTIVELY moves away from an inhospitable area or that ACTIVELY consumes food to live.

By your definition, my stereo is alive because when I push a button (stimulus), it plays music (response). My stereo is not alive. It is an inanimate object to which things happen, not the other way around.

Why the insatiable mystic-head need to anthropomorphize everything? The Earth is a rock with things growing on it. Nothing more.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: Diploid]
    #5239414 -

Diploid: If you came across a being that closely resembled a human that was obviously self-aware, could think and communicate, was organically and naturally created, etc.; would you refuse to consider it alive if it were a unique being that could not reproduce?

Most people would call it alive, regardless of the scientific definition, which are usually much more strict than standard usage. You may choose to use the scientific definition, others may choose to use another, more intuitive one. You're free to constrain yourself to rigid definitions if you so choose, but recognize that not all people limit their understandings in that same way.

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: Diploid]
    #5239615 -

Diploid said:
The Earth is a rock with things growing on it. Nothing more.



Dirty rocks are neato.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: Sclorch]
    #5240064 -

I never said the rocks were alive man if you can find that in my post props to you, I just said if you fuck up the environment teh earth the environment will change and respond to that stimulus. Not alive not thinking just responding, if you upset the balance then the things will go out of sync.

also I never said teh earth was reproducing, just the seed of life was, which you obviously being a scientific mind either A)believe came from teh earth in the primordial soup of amino acids which somhow formed the first single cell organism(meaning that the dead rocks did make life some how) or else you believe life originated elsewhere which only furthers my theorys.

YOU are the one who is making the assumtions my friend.

THe dead wood was once alive, but so was the coral reef. Im not saying all rocks were once alive again you ASSUME you understand me. Gaia is not the rocks themselves but only the ecosystem, it is the "skin" of the Earth. It is not cognitive in my theory, but only a reactionatory system. Life on Earth is closely tied to teh Earth, and effects it everyday. THis interaction, and the balance itself is Gaia. Piss it off(pollution and destruction) and it will be pissed off back. Weather or not the Earth "knows" what it is doing is irrevelent it IS doing it. It may not the same idea of Gaia as those who invented it, but the end result is the same, there IS a balance to the Earth. That balance was recognized by the early humans and the term Gaia was born. THey believed it to be something more, as do I, that is personal opinion, but teh fact remains that teh earth CAN push back. We are witnessing it now.

My defination of Gaia in a nutshell=the interaction between life, and the planet Earth. The give and take. The earth has its own reactionatory systems, adn Life has an inherit will to survive annihilation, Put them together and the will of life to survive as a whole could trigger the Earths Fury. The Why is not important. Man is seperate from nature in this age, this in and of itself my be why the Earth will punish us. WE ARE CREATURES OF THIS EARTH. We need its air and water adn magnetic feild and everything about it to survive, but we have turned our back on Her, and pursued our desires. We have tipped the balance, and Gaia will tip it back. Wait and see.

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

Edited by blaze2 (01/29/06 08:46 PM)

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis [Re: blaze2]
    #5240135 -

Ah, the never ending debate. And because no one can answer it conclusively it will go on. :grin:

So here is what the Icelander chooses to believe. All material substances are made of the same particals. No? Some manifestations of those particals produce what we call life and some seem lifeless by scientific definition. But since the source material is the same in both instances then it doesn't matter because the potential is there. And the potential is the important thing to me. So I would say that things that we call not living are in a state of slumber or rest at least. At most they are consciousness to a differing degree than what we call living. So to me everything is the same as in the source or Tao.

This may sound like Bullshit to you but I assure you that you may be right. :grin:


On the other hand... :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy


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