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Invisiblespud
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Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce?
    #4460992 - 07/27/05 07:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes or no? Please give support backing up your opinion.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4460996 - 07/27/05 07:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes. There's no need to legislate what natural selection can take care of on its own.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4460998 - 07/27/05 07:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes. Freedom is the most important value I recognize.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4461008 - 07/27/05 07:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What about people with known severe contagious diseases, such as AIDS?


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4461064 - 07/27/05 07:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Depends on what kind of society you are trying to run.

I think natural selection doesnt necessarly have to be restricted to
flesh but could also be covered by the intellect, making us able to
affect the stages of our biology. As with alternation of genes.

Both yes and no. Depending on where you are going :smile:

My gut feeling is yes.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4461094 - 07/27/05 07:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes. Freedom for all, not just the healthy.

Same for people with contaigious diseases.

I think we should worry about finding a way to correct the diseases without taking away peoples' freedoms.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4461101 - 07/27/05 07:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think people are more concerned with creating new diseases and reproducing old diseases in a controlled manner rather then eliminating old ones.

:grin:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4461117 - 07/27/05 08:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

we are all in a constant state of reproducion, try to stop them/anyone... :P

:wink:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4461148 - 07/27/05 08:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That's not true, you only hear about the ones working on weapons :wink:

Pick a disease...and there's scientists working on it, somewhere.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblespud
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Registered: 10/07/02
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4461168 - 07/27/05 08:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I was joking. I do believe, however, much of cancer research, for example, is actually research in making cancer more militarily compliant.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4461200 - 07/27/05 08:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yes so long as it is not a system with socialist laws


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: BleaK]
    #4461650 - 07/27/05 10:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"much of cancer research, for example, is actually research in making cancer more militarily compliant"

that is utter bullshit...unless you can support this...as it is not opinion, but a statement of fact.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleTheHateCamel
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4461698 - 07/27/05 10:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

spud said: I do believe, however,




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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4461723 - 07/27/05 11:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Yes. There's no need to legislate what natural selection can take care of on its own.




Exactly what I was thinking. Natural selection will eventually take care of it anyway, so there's no need to ruin someone's life when nature will do it to their descendents the natural way.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineTao
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4461735 - 07/27/05 11:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

By the logic of "natural selection will take care of it..." there should be zero government whatsoever.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Tao]
    #4461790 - 07/27/05 11:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I disagree.

Governments are simply a type of extended leadership, and like tribal leadership, they often help the survival of the human race by maintaining order, unifying the people and planning ahead (theoretically). We evolved to have the potential to create government, and those who utilized the power of government have survived until we get where we are today. By that logic, government is useful to our survival, not by some abstract means but because by using it we are still here.

However, we have not used eugenics, nor stopped those with disabilities from reproducing, and yet we are also still here and very successful. Many people with obvious disabilities like Stephen Hawking have contributed much more to humanity than most fully able people. Evidently, we can see eugenics is not necessary by any means, because nature will take care of the most serious disabilities, while those who can survive with their disabilities may still be able to help increase the chances of humanity as a whole's survival. Nature will take care of reproduction for the most part; humanity's matters during their lifetime, such as government, is a different matter (I say nature is separate from human affects for the sake of simplicity).


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4461798 - 07/27/05 11:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think Tao was joking.


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OfflinePuZuZu
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4462051 - 07/28/05 12:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Yes.  There's no need to legislate what natural selection can take care of on its own.




Exactly what I was thinking. Natural selection will eventually take care of it anyway, so there's no need to ruin someone's life when nature will do it to their descendents the natural way.




I totally agree with this. I think its Nature's job to decide who continues and who doesn't. Thats why I'm against suicide and murder. I don't think we decide the death date. Of course this is fate, it isn't natural though.

Nature knows its ways to choose how things are to be with disease and such. Plus I don't think any of us have any lesser rights when we have a disease or a disability. We aren't more deserving of life's happiness by having a healthy body.  :heart:


--------------------
"If you worried about falling off the bike, you would never get on."
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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: PuZuZu]
    #4462075 - 07/28/05 12:24 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

In the wild, murder is an essential part of natural selection. The weakest prey will not be able to escape the predator, and will therefore become food; two fighting wolves will continue until one murders the other. So to say murder is unnatural goes against the observations in nature.

Suicide is another story. I haven't seen any records of multicellular conscious mammals other than humans committing suicide, but on a smaller scale, cells commit suicide all the time as a way to help the survival of the organism on the whole. I don't necessarily think suicide is unnatural, as I do believe humans are just partially following their instinct- the main difference is that we have the means and the conscious thought to be able to commit suicide, while other mammals don't.

Of course, this is debatable, and in the end will boil down to the argument over how natural humans really are. Humans are naturally developed animals after all, so would the suicide of one of these animals also be as natural as the suicide of a cell? Would murder with a gun be as natural as murder in the wolf's jaws?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: PuZuZu]
    #4462076 - 07/28/05 12:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I always looked at man as a part of the nature.
The expression of man as an expression of the nature.


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OfflinePuZuZu
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4462138 - 07/28/05 12:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
In the wild, murder is an essential part of natural selection. The weakest prey will not be able to escape the predator, and will therefore become food; two fighting wolves will continue until one murders the other. So to say murder is unnatural goes against the observations in nature.

Suicide is another story. I haven't seen any records of multicellular conscious mammals other than humans committing suicide, but on a smaller scale, cells commit suicide all the time as a way to help the survival of the organism on the whole. I don't necessarily think suicide is unnatural, as I do believe humans are just partially following their instinct- the main difference is that we have the means and the conscious thought to be able to commit suicide, while other mammals don't.

Of course, this is debatable, and in the end will boil down to the argument over how natural humans really are. Humans are naturally developed animals after all, so would the suicide of one of these animals also be as natural as the suicide of a cell? Would murder with a gun be as natural as murder in the wolf's jaws?




Yeah murder for survival purposes is perfectly 'natural'. Its not civilized for us folks living in human communities with healthy amounts of food and security.

Suicide by a cell to me isnt comparable to the full organism of a human but thats the beauty of life, theres multiple perceptions. In my oppinion cells are committing suicide based on the DNA's unconcious direction, not emotions.


--------------------
"If you worried about falling off the bike, you would never get on."
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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4462161 - 07/28/05 12:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How would they be stopped from reproducing? Constant monitoring? Forced sterilization?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: PuZuZu]
    #4462179 - 07/28/05 12:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah murder for survival purposes is perfectly 'natural'.




In nature, it's not always for direct survival purposes; sometimes it's simply for one organism to expand. If another organism is in its way, oftentimes the more successful one will murder the weaker one. And is this unnatural? It is done in more cases than with humanity, yet when humanity does it we give it a category of its own.

Quote:

In my oppinion cells are committing suicide based on the DNA's unconcious direction, not emotions.




The potential for emotions is created by DNA. And even so, emotions are completely natural, so would the emotions of sadness or frustration that drive some humans to suicide be considered unnatural? Evidently not; they are naturally created. So why is the act of suicide then considered unnatural, when it's really just a cause and effect?

The emotions, or cause of suicide, are natural, if we accept the human mind as following its animal emotions and instincts to an extent. The cause of suicide is possible mostly because of our advancement of technology and superior minds to other animals, who are more controlled by simple instinct while the instinct to survive of humans can be overpowered by sheer emotion. Either way, I wouldn't consider it unnatural, but rather just an unforeseen reaction to creating a more intelligent, conscious creature like a human.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: moog]
    #4462190 - 07/28/05 12:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

moog said:
How would they be stopped from reproducing? Constant monitoring? Forced sterilization?




Forced sterilization, or eugenics, seems the best way. It's been tried first by the USA, then by Nazi Germany, but both programs were unsurprisingly ended. Evidently it's not as successful as one would theoretically think if the United States decided to stop their program of forced sterilization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_sterilization is an interesting article on the subject.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflinePuZuZu
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4462290 - 07/28/05 01:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
In nature, it's not always for direct survival purposes; sometimes it's simply for one organism to expand. If another organism is in its way, oftentimes the more successful one will murder the weaker one. And is this unnatural? It is done in more cases than with humanity, yet when humanity does it we give it a category of its own.




Humans are superior minded then the rest of the animal kingdom and sittuations can get very specific. I spose many sittuations of murder are natural and fair or primitive enough to not be evil but I still think that the beauty of humans is choice, to pick another outcome instead of murder.

Quote:


The potential for emotions is created by DNA. And even so, emotions are completely natural, so would the emotions of sadness or frustration that drive some humans to suicide be considered unnatural? Evidently not; they are naturally created. So why is the act of suicide then considered unnatural, when it's really just a cause and effect?





Emotions are created by DNA but cells aren't created to run by emotions. They run by basic links of ribosomes and whatnot. Humans have emotion which I think give the ability of suicide but go against it. We may commit suicide but we aren't willing to do it. It isn't natural because it isn't easy or benefiting on the society as a whole.

I'll exchange more with you tomorrow, I'm going to bed cause I have to wake up early. This is fun cause its opening up my mind to other possibilities. Hope its the same for you.

Peace.  :peace:


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4463535 - 07/28/05 07:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes and no. Yes, one should be free to reproduce as long as one is capable of being responsible and taking care of its descendants. No, if the handicap is so profound that you can't be up to the responsibility of educating and taking care of your kids. Freedom should exist only if there is responsibility.

About natural selection. Mankind has evolved through natural selection for many years and it still affects us. But man created society as a way to replace some of the natural aspects of life. Reproduction is a natural aspect controlled, in part, by society, therefore saying that natural selection will take care of things is a one sided view of the whole reproductive aspect. Society plays an important role when it comes to protect, sustain, educate and control a new generation.

I have a profound schizophrenic aunt, she's 50 years old now. After living a part of my life with her, i concluded that she never had and will never have the capacity to raise a child. She's not responsible enough to do it, it's the kind of case which the handicap affects her beyond the capability of having a child.

MAIA


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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: MAIA]
    #4464353 - 07/28/05 01:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

About natural selection. Mankind has evolved through natural selection for many years and it still affects us. But man created society as a way to replace some of the natural aspects of life. Reproduction is a natural aspect controlled, in part, by society, therefore saying that natural selection will take care of things is a one sided view of the whole reproductive aspect. Society plays an important role when it comes to protect, sustain, educate and control a new generation.




Man has not replaced any of the aspects of natural selection. This is all part of our potential, raising a society and government, and if it increases our chances of survival and of helping others, then that's simply also a part of natural selection.

Reproduction is in part regulated by society, but society is made up of human animals who follow a logic about how to regulate it. If an ant's or bee's hive had a way to regulate their reproduction, killing the obviously flawed bees or stopping the weaker bees from reproducing, would this not fit under natural selection? Natural selection can easily be imprinted into the behavior of animals themselves if it helps their survival, as it has in humans and others to a certain extent.

In the end, I don't believe there is any way to escape natural selection, because we are simply animals trying to increase our survival. As long as organisms are mortal, despite whatever societies or buildings or technology they get, natural selection will still be the same powerful force acting upon life.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: MAIA]
    #4464469 - 07/28/05 02:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

have a profound schizophrenic aunt, she's 50 years old now. After living a part of my life with her, i concluded that she never had and will never have the capacity to raise a child. She's not responsible enough to do it, it's the kind of case which the handicap affects her beyond the capability of having a child.

Being of sound mental and physical health doesn't mean one is able to raise children properly...


What about people of below-average intelligence? Should those of us with above-average intelligence be able to prevent all the "dummies" from reproducing?

I garuntee you that there are examples of people with severe mental health problems raising perfectly-normal and well-adjusted children. Who are you to say that they shouldn't even be given the chance to do so?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4464530 - 07/28/05 02:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
have a profound schizophrenic aunt, she's 50 years old now. After living a part of my life with her, i concluded that she never had and will never have the capacity to raise a child. She's not responsible enough to do it, it's the kind of case which the handicap affects her beyond the capability of having a child.

Being of sound mental and physical health doesn't mean one is able to raise children properly...


What about people of below-average intelligence? Should those of us with above-average intelligence be able to prevent all the "dummies" from reproducing?





Schizophrenia and below-average intelligence are two things far apart. Schizophrenics are far from a good candidate for raising a child.

Also 35% of couples in which both parents are schizophrenic the child has it, and 10% of those in which only one has it, the child gets it passed on.

Taking the risk of passing it on is a very selfish thing to do on behalf of the parents.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464536 - 07/28/05 02:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Why so? Schizophrenic people are just human as anyone else, and want to reproduce like anyone else.

Quote:

Who are you to say that they shouldn't even be given the chance to do so?




Perhaps he's someone with the power to stop them from reproducing? Might makes right, and if someone can stop people from reproducing, subjective morals aside there's nothing evil about it.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4464547 - 07/28/05 02:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Why so? Schizophrenic people are just human as anyone else, and want to reproduce like anyone else.





That doesn't even make sense. How do you measure one's "human"?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464550 - 07/28/05 02:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Schizophrenics are far from a good candidate for raising a child.

Someone with an IQ of 70 is far from a good candidate for raising a child.

The point I'm trying to make here is: where do you draw the line? Because any line you draw is going to be very arbitrary. You should also realize that no matter how "fit" you are to raise a child...there will always be someone who is more "fit" to raise a child than you are.

If you can decide that the people lower than you on the "child-raising fitness" scale shouldn't be allowed to have children...there is nothing from preventing those higher than you on the scale from similary chosing to prevent you from having children.

Freedom for all, or freedom for none. There are no half-measures when it comes to freedom.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4464564 - 07/28/05 02:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4657897.stm

Read this, I think you will find it interesting.

It will give you a chuckle, if anything.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464566 - 07/28/05 02:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
Quote:

Ravus said:
Why so? Schizophrenic people are just human as anyone else, and want to reproduce like anyone else.





That doesn't even make sense. How do you measure one's "human"?




I meant "just as human" but missed that omission when I read it over.

Simply because they have a mental condition, does that take away their natural instinct to reproduce and continue their genetic line? You say it's selfish because it's not good for the kid, but what about people with genetic predispositions to becoming obese or having cancer? Should we call them selfish for wanting kids and stop them from reproducing?


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4464574 - 07/28/05 03:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

My genetic predispositions in alcoholism and violence have inclined me to rape children.

I realize the child may be harmed, but don't call me selfish. I am following some element beyond my control. I am a victim of society and genetics. Let me be.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4464577 - 07/28/05 03:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
I meant "just as human" but missed that omission when I read it over.

Simply because they have a mental condition, does that take away their natural instinct to reproduce and continue their genetic line? You say it's selfish because it's not good for the kid, but what about people with genetic predispositions to becoming obese or having cancer? Should we call them selfish for wanting kids and stop them from reproducing?




Didn't you know? We only allow perfect people to reproduce now :smirk:


--------------------
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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464585 - 07/28/05 03:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
Yes or no? Please give support backing up your opinion.




yes, if there is a need to burry those genes into the ground forever, then nature will take care of it by itself.

People like to play nature in the name of natural selection:
they see how in nature the weakest gets eaten by a beast, and then they go and beat their neighbour because he is "weak". That is not natural selection, that is frustration and neurosis. In fact, by playing the stronger link in social darvinism, you are proving to be the weaker link in universal natural selection: a selfdestructing mockery of a living being.

We humans still have our sexual instincts that tell use what genes are good and what are bad for reproduction. If some mutations are so dangerous that the nature should burry them, then we will not feel desire for such people. This is where nature works in us, not in some social laws.

And besides, we are a species in progress, if we alow a lethal mutation to spread further, we will have more people with the same problem and more motivation to find a cure. And with enough time, any cure for any disease or problem can be fixed.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464589 - 07/28/05 03:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That's different. Entirely different, and I'll tell you why:

You have performed an illegal action. Thus you deserve punishment.

Preventing parents from even trying to raise children is preventing them from making "mistakes" that they haven't made yet and may never actually make.


In your example, that would be equivalent to castrating you at birth due to your genetic disposition - that way you can't ever make the mistake of raping a child.


Give people the chance to make their own mistakes, then punish them accordingly if they make a mistake.


--------------------
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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4464595 - 07/28/05 03:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Laws are completely arbitrary. This is a discussion in philosophy, hence the location of this thread here and not in in the politics and law forum.

For all you know, next year it could be made illegal for people with serious inheritable disabilities to reproduce.

I wanted a timeless discussion on the ethics, not a regurgitation of current law.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4464604 - 07/28/05 03:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, and the mistake would be in taking the risk of passing on bad genes to an innocent child, not a mistake in the way you raised them. The top priority of my concern is an innocent, loving child having to live a life with a horrible disease such as schizophrenia due to selfish and inconsiderate parents.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464614 - 07/28/05 03:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:lol:

I'm not "regurgitating" current law, I was pointing out the difference between your example (raping children) and the idea of preventing adults from trying to have children. :smirk:


The ethics of this are very simple: either you want to give everyone equal freedom...or you want to take freedom away from select groups of people.


--------------------
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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464622 - 07/28/05 03:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

My brother has schizophrenia....he gets along alright...he is a little weird.


--------------------
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4464630 - 07/28/05 03:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I have nothing against taking the freedom away from certain individuals.

Also, did you read the article I provided?

A great example of how in this world, arbitrary numbers such as IQ determine A LOT. Even whether or not you will be legally executed.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464639 - 07/28/05 03:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
The top priority of my concern is an innocent, loving child having to live a life with a horrible disease such as schizophrenia due to selfish and inconsiderate parents.




While people with schizophrenia are more likely to have children with the condition, they are not guaranteed to have children with it.

You want to prevent them from even having the chance to do so?


--------------------
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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464643 - 07/28/05 03:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

A great example of how in this world, arbitrary numbers such as IQ determine A LOT. Even whether or not you will be legally executed.

I thought this was supposed to be a "timeless ethics" discussion...not a "regurgitation of current law" :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4464647 - 07/28/05 03:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

35% is statistically significant, according to the field of science.

That is significant enough for me to take action.

Would you allow someone to take a risk that brings them happiness if it had a 35% risk of imposing a horrible disease upon a child?


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4464649 - 07/28/05 03:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
A great example of how in this world, arbitrary numbers such as IQ determine A LOT. Even whether or not you will be legally executed.

I thought this was supposed to be a "timeless ethics" discussion...not a "regurgitation of current law" :smirk:




The article was for your own pleasure, hence me stating IT MIGHT MAKE YOU CHUCKLE.

Oh dear trendal, not everything exists in a vacuum. Can we not share articles as friends?


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464666 - 07/28/05 03:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Would you allow someone to take a risk that brings them happiness if it had a 35% risk of imposing a horrible disease upon a child?

Yes, yes I would. Otherwise you have deprived 65% of those people from having healthy children :wink:

I have nothing against taking the freedom away from certain individuals.

Then you have nothing against someone taking away your freedom?


--------------------
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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4464678 - 07/28/05 03:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:


Then you have nothing against someone taking away your freedom?




I am a competent being, so I have do indeed have something against it.

If someone chooses to take away my freedom of raping children, I won't complain too much.  :smirk:

Any who, I'm late for class. Been fun chattin'! :wink:


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464692 - 07/28/05 03:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I am a competent being, so I have do indeed have something against it.

Who defines "competent"? You? What is stopping you from drawing the "competent" line wherever you wish?

Such a thing is far too arbitrary to use as a reason to take away freedom from a group of people.

Do you honestly think that, if you follow your family tree back, you won't find one or two of your ancestors who aren't, by your definition, "competent"? Do you think you have come from some prodigious line of pure-bloods who have never had a defective gene in their family?

What if someone decided that one of those relatives shouldn't reproduce because of their faulty gene(s)?

You wouldn't be here right now to live your "competent" life.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4464768 - 07/28/05 03:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Directed to the thread in general...

Best argument for eugenics right here.

Oh and saying that nature will take care of inheritable disabilities is kind of bullshit, because we don't let nature take care of anything anymore. Our seniors are hooked up to machines keeping them alive. Medical science will keep these people around also and that is not natural.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4464775 - 07/28/05 03:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
We evolved to have the potential to create government, and those who utilized the power of government have survived until we get where we are today. By that logic, government is useful to our survival, not by some abstract means but because by using it we are still here.




Quote:


However, we have not used eugenics, nor stopped those with disabilities from reproducing, and yet we are also still here and very successful.




Your two statements in seperate quotes here contradict one another when one considers the fact that these things have occured in our past, especially in our more primitive times, especially infanticide, which was utilized as population control, to remove babies with visible defects, etc. Your first statement, in concrete means, justifies this as a necessary means for our survival. It was even Roman law at one point in time, to kill off a baby if it was defected. Families facing harsh economic factors would kill off their babies... this has been documented in tons of ancient cultures.

Here we are, still here and successful.. thanks to infanticide, which propagated our evolution! :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4464810 - 07/28/05 03:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Your two statements in seperate quotes here contradict one another when one considers the fact that these things have occured in our past




A lot of events have occured in our past; that is the point of chaos and random variation from different cultures and time periods. Yet I don't believe these statements contradict each other, because we have been consistently using government as a way to further ourselves, while the periods in which we've used eugenics/ infanticide have been temporary and is no longer used. I can't say what the world would be like if the Romans had never killed off defected babies, but from simple observation we can notice that in the modern day we allow those with defects to survive and even reproduce, and we are still here thriving.

It's like saying praying to the sun is necessary to our survival because it's occured in the past and yet we're still here, but we have to look at these events realistically, and if these ways of thinking died out and yet cultures without them thrived, we can conclude that they're not necessary to humanity's survival. I can't think of any cultures that have lived without at least some primitive form of government and leadership, and even those with primitive governments were often taken over by those with a stronger, more intelligent form of leadership.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4464851 - 07/28/05 04:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with you; I think my basic point is that everything that we concern ourselves with is utilized at a specific point in time and serves its purpose within that. Some concepts prove to be more useful for whatever task we apply them to and we use them for a much longer time. A time when we are without a necessity for government certainly can present itself, and government would no longer be useful to us for those tasks.

There are plenty of paths, plenty of goals, and plenty of possibillities, plenty of options that might be more capable than others that have proven to be useful in the past. This is really just carry over from your thread, and I must note that I am now getting mildly delirious from need of sleep. :lol:

Have a good one, man! :grin:

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Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4464870 - 07/28/05 04:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How did infanticide propagate our evolution in your eyes?

I would think that people looking to not have to do this is what has resulted in a huge growth spurts. We look for new ways to care for the poor and disadvantaged or disabled through co-operative, technological and medical advancements.

Sure, like with plants, if you cut off the crap, they thrive naturally. Wanting to save the crap and turn it into something of value may spawn innovation and rejuvenitive progress. The ability to create and innovate is what sets us apart from the animals.

If a horse in the wild is born lame it will die and the other horses can't do a thing to save it. If a human is born lame, we can keep it alive and it can lead a productive life. Thats pretty cool. Before that happens, we have to have the desire for it to live.

Many couples adopt disabled children they have so much desire to nurture and care for a human life.

If anyone should be kept from reproducing it should be those without the ability to care for or love another or those without the means to at least feed, cloth and shelter it properly. Those are the ones I would like to see neutered or spayed.

Look at healthy moms who give birth to healthy babies and throw them in dumpsters or dead beat dads. Those are the ones I would clip and snip first if we had too.

Even those types spawn a reason for the evolution of compassion, forgiveness and generosity to come out of us.

I think we will progress best technologically and spiritually if we just let it be.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4464887 - 07/28/05 04:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
How did infanticide propagate our evolution in your eyes?




Beyond the fact that every single interaction that our species participates in propagates our evolution? :lol:

Perhaps you missed my sarcastic tone or my point in that statement up there... :wink:

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--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
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:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4464969 - 07/28/05 04:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I sensed a minor dose of sarcasm in it as I couldn't picture you killing your puppy if it was born with 3 legs or blind or something.

Yet its true, everything takes us forward even if its backwards :crazy: Funny how that works sort of like rip tides.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4465564 - 07/28/05 07:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

<edit> Cleared up who my quotes are from for folks. =)

Quote:

trendal Preventing parents from even trying to raise children is preventing them from making "mistakes" that they haven't made yet and may never actually make.




Yeah this totally correct.  If we don't let less healthy people or nonstandard parents have kids then life would be unbalanced anyways. First this would hurt the parent's feelings leaving you with a question of whether or not a healthy child could come into this world. And even if an unhealthy child were born what harm does it do to us fellow humans? Yeah, the child doesn't live the best life but that isn't our decision. That child won't hate you for letting it be born. Its part of that circle of life. Unhealthy kids are born every day for a reason in mind, to touch those around them. Plus you know, handicapped people and those with deadly inherited diseases can teach you special things that 'normal' people couldn't. I'm glad for the variety in this world. I won't pity a child being 'born' on this earth because life is an awesome gift. I will pity the pain they endure to show us other aspects of life. Maybe even try to prevent it but I won't finish it off by destroying a reproduction process.

Its all natural... diseases and disabilities. By trying to stop it with laws and morals isn't living an accepted life. How about we let this children be born so someday they will have a cure since the disease can be observed through them. Then that way, if the problem does get cured, you can get appreciation from that person. That would be awesome.

Quote:

irradiated_fecesOh and saying that nature will take care of inheritable disabilities is kind of bullshit, because we don't let nature take care of anything anymore. Our seniors are hooked up to machines keeping them alive. Medical science will keep these people around also and that is not natural.




Its not natural for the human mind to be curious and strive to better its world through letting others live? It is natural to love your seniors and let them be on this earth longer so you can enjoy them. I think you should work in a nursing home for awhile to understand this.


:heart:


--------------------
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Lance Armstrong



Edited by PuZuZu (07/28/05 07:58 PM)


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: PuZuZu]
    #4465594 - 07/28/05 07:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Me thinks you replied to the wrong person :wink:


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4465655 - 07/28/05 08:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

While I agree that laws should never interfere in people's personal lives, there's a bigger issue.

What if the child to be isn't just destined for disability. What if that child is destined for a short life of deformity, mental retardation, and constant intractable pain before death at, say, age 10 and this can be shown through genetic analysis that it is a certainty?

Now should the law prevent the parents from conceiving?


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Diploid]
    #4465660 - 07/28/05 08:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes!


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Diploid]
    #4465739 - 07/28/05 08:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
While I agree that laws should never interfere in people's personal lives, there's a bigger issue.

What if the child to be isn't just destined for disability. What if that child is destined for a short life of deformity, mental retardation, and constant intractable pain before death at, say, age 10 and this can be shown through genetic analysis that it is a certainty?

Now should the law prevent the parents from conceiving?




Children like this are born to healthy adults all the time.

Banning persons with disabilities from reproducing is prejudice against persons with disabilities, because healthy people have disabled children all the time.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4465754 - 07/28/05 08:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Healthy people have children like that all the time?

Do you have a single shred of evidence supporting this?

I'm willing to wager that the % of completely healthy adults who have children in the same shape as diploid described is extremely rare. Not even close to be statistically significant.

Also, diploid was being inclusive to healthy people. He was just stating IF you knew ahead of time that the couple would produce such off spring, regardless of their current health, should we allow them to reproduce?


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4465832 - 07/28/05 08:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Also, diploid was being inclusive to healthy people. He was just stating IF you knew ahead of time that the couple would produce such off spring, regardless of their current health, should we allow them to reproduce?

I would let them decide if they want to have the child or not, but I wouldn't force them not to. I can't justify taking away their freedoms.

Do you have a single shred of evidence supporting this?

In my own experience: I have never met a parent of a disabled child who was, themselves, disabled. I don't doubt that the risk is much higher for people who are themselves disabled...but obviously (to me) healthy parents having disabled children is not uncommon.

"It should be noted the majority of birth defects occur in parents with no problems and are perfectly healthy."
http://www.anguillian.com/article/articleview/2562/1/133/

That's just from a quick google search...


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4465865 - 07/28/05 08:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Also, diploid was being inclusive to healthy people. He was just stating IF you knew ahead of time that the couple would produce such off spring, regardless of their current health, should we allow them to reproduce?

I would let them decide if they want to have the child or not, but I wouldn't force them not to. I can't justify taking away their freedoms.





Wow, so you'd put a child through an entire life time of anguish and pain just so the parents can have their child?

I think the difference between you and I is that you are a sadist and I'm not.
Quote:


Do you have a single shred of evidence supporting this?

In my own experience: I have never met a parent of a disabled child who was, themselves, disabled. I don't doubt that the risk is much higher for people who are themselves disabled...but obviously (to me) healthy parents having disabled children is not uncommon.

"It should be noted the majority of birth defects occur in parents with no problems and are perfectly healthy."
http://www.anguillian.com/article/articleview/2562/1/133/

That's just from a quick google search...



From the article you provided:
How common are birth defects?
The exact incidence of birth defects is difficult to determine due to lack of reporting and differences in determining different types of birth defects. Heart defects are the most common type of birth defects.


Wow, amazing evidence. I'm convinced!


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4465872 - 07/28/05 09:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I would let them decide if they want to have the child or not, but I wouldn't force them not to. I can't justify taking away their freedoms.

I have mixed feelings.

I see someone bringing into the world a child assured to live such a tortured life as not much different from someone taking a healthy child and torturing him. The end result is very similar: one innocent suffering tremendously at the hands of his parents, then dying young after an unfulfilled life.

So although I have a very strong inhibition against interfering in other people's lives, I also have a very strong drive to prevent pain and suffering where I can, and this leaves wondering if it wouldn't be for the greater good to prevent such births, by force if necessary.


--------------------
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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Diploid]
    #4465943 - 07/28/05 09:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The effects of a child rapist would be milder than the ones you proposed.

So needless to say, I agree with you.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4465999 - 07/28/05 09:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think the difference between you and I is that you are a sadist and I'm not.

I think the difference between you and I is that you are a fascist and I'm not.

How do you know the child, however badly deformed and in pain, will not cherish every moment of his/her life? Yes such an outlook may be unlikely, but you do not know for sure.

Instead you want to take freedom away from three people? You would take away the parents' freedom to chose? Take away the child's freedom to chose if they want to live or die?


Also, your constant referal to child rape/molestation has me a little worried, but is also a well-known dirty debate tactic: "the lunatic edge". By attempting to link my argument with rape, molestation, and sadism, you are attempting to remove the focus from my actual argument. It indicates that you have no real argument against it :smirk:


--------------------
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Diploid]
    #4466011 - 07/28/05 09:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I also have a very strong drive to prevent pain and suffering where I can, and this leaves wondering if it wouldn't be for the greater good to prevent such births, by force if necessary.

Can you explain how a child who lives a life of pain effects "the greater good"?


--------------------
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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Diploid]
    #4466026 - 07/28/05 09:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The end result is very similar: one innocent suffering tremendously at the hands of his parents, then dying young after an unfulfilled life.

That's a very bad wording to use, as I think the general example would be two parents caring for their disabled child in every way possible.


--------------------
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4466027 - 07/28/05 09:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I think the difference between you and I is that you are a sadist and I'm not.

I think the difference between you and I is that you are a fascist and I'm not.

How do you know the child, however badly deformed and in pain, will not cherish every moment of his/her life? Yes such an outlook may be unlikely, but you do not know for sure.





You admit it's unlikely, then question why I wouldn't take that chance?

Insert logic here please.

Quote:

Take away the child's freedom to chose if they want to live or die?




A child chooses whether or not it wants to be born? This is new to me.

Also, a child not being born isn't considered dying or death. If that was the case, we are all murderers for not having sex right this moment and making babies.

Quote:

Also, your constant referal to child rape/molestation has me a little worried, but is also a well-known dirty debate tactic: "the lunatic edge". By attempting to link my argument with rape, molestation, and sadism, you are attempting to remove the focus from my actual argument. It indicates that you have no real argument against it




I call it my OTD sense of humor.
I like the sound of "the lunatic edge" though. I think I'll use that for now on.

Oh, and lastly, "referal" isn't a word.  :smirk:


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4466051 - 07/28/05 09:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, and lastly, "referal" isn't a word.

Wow, I missed an 'r'...I guess you win, eh? :rolleyes:


As for this whole discussion, you've moved it away from

"Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce?"

to "should a pregnant couple who have just had a DNA test determine, without a doubt, that their child will be deformed and in pain be allowed to have the birth?"

Why did you need to make it so specific?

What parent would bring such a child into the world, given the choice?

Do you think we should start checking the DNA of every pregnancy, to catch the deformed-in-pain ones?

Does a genetic condition with the effects Diploid listed even exist???


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4466066 - 07/28/05 09:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And while we are over that edge...


Maybe we should prevent the poor from reproducing, as well? They don't have the money to give their children a good life, so they are setting them up for a life of emotional anguish and depression.

What about those with cluster-migrains? They shouldn't have to go through life with all that pain...might as well just put them out of their misery, eh?

Where does it end, spud? Where do you stop the line, once you've drawn a line through freedom?


--------------------
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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4466078 - 07/28/05 09:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Oh, and lastly, "referal" isn't a word.

W
As for this whole discussion, you've moved it away from

"Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce?"

to "should a pregnant couple who have just had a DNA test determine, without a doubt, that their child will be deformed and in pain be allowed to have the birth?"

Why did you need to make it so specific?





What the fuck are you talking about? Diploid prosed that question and shifted the topic. I was responding to him.

Have trouble reading?

Quote:


What parent would bring such a child into the world, given the choice?





From what you've said so far, it sounds like you yourself would make that choice.
Quote:

Do you think we should start checking the DNA of every pregnancy, to catch the deformed-in-pain ones?




That sounds like a wonderful idea.
Quote:

Does a genetic condition with the effects Diploid listed even exist???



Conditions MUCH worst than the one diploid mentioned exist.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4466083 - 07/28/05 09:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:

Where does it end, spud? Where do you stop the line, once you've drawn a line through freedom?




I'm sure if I really wanted to, I could draw a pretty reasonable, not too arbitrary line.

Anyways, I'm out once again. Off for dinner. Cya!


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4466091 - 07/28/05 09:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

From what you've said so far, it sounds like you yourself would make that choice.

How do you figure?

I said you should give people the choice, not "I would do it" :wink: :rolleyes:

I'm pro-choice...not pro-manditory-abortions.

That sounds like a wonderful idea.

Do you support manditory finger-printing of all newborns?

Conditions MUCH worst than the one diploid mentioned exist.

Name one.


--------------------
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4466106 - 07/28/05 09:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Absolutley not. Just adopt. There are plenty of children who need homes, and if you spout shit like "it's your right", then you are being selfish and irresponsible. An adopted child will be much happier than a child born out of a selfish narccisistic need to deny reality, with an inherent defect.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4466110 - 07/28/05 09:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Name one.



I really need to get going, but here:

Child with almost total deformity of the face; no recognizable features at all, and what appears to be one eye situated in the middle of the forehead.

Child with hydrocephalus.

Extreme hydrocephalus; deformity of face, body and ear. The line running down the right hand side of the head would appear to show that potentially two heads were forming.


Huge hole in child's back, which is an extreme form of Spina Bifida.





Zyklopie.

Like I said, I really have to go. Though now my appetite is fairly spoiled. Thanks.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4466123 - 07/28/05 10:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How many of those fetuses survived until birth, in the first place?

Pictures aren't names, by the way...

Also, are you aware that neither Spina Bifida or hydrocephalus are genetic birth defects? They are caused by abnormalities during fetal development...


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4466127 - 07/28/05 10:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Actually I've seen all of those pictures before.

They are almost all from Iraq, and are suspected cases of exposure to depleted-uranium :smirk:

What page did you find them on?


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4466134 - 07/28/05 10:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Uh, all those diseases exist prior to DU.

Don't believe me? Look up all the syndromes in wikipedia or google or whatever. They are all conditions that exist independent from war.

I got them from a war site, simply because propaganda photographers tend to provide the most thought provoking images.


You are in extreme denial for some reason.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4466137 - 07/28/05 10:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocephalus

Start there, and work to the other syndromes I provided.

The war incidents of them are a minority of their existence.


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4466141 - 07/28/05 10:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You are in extreme denial for some reason.

I'd say the same thing about you...

I didn't say that Spina Bifida or hydrocephalus were caused by DU, either. I said they weren't caused by genetic-defects. Only a couplel of those pics were of Spina Bifida or hydrocephalus, the others (the really nasty ones) were suspected cases of DU exposure. I'm not sure what the last one was, but it certainly looks like a congenital defect and not a genetic defect.

I'm wondering why you are trying to use these pics as an example of genetic birth defects "worse" than the one Diploid described...


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4466145 - 07/28/05 10:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Start there, and work to the other syndromes I provided.

What "other syndroms" did you provide?

Spina Bifida and Hydrocephalus are the only two names you gave...and as I already pointed out (but I'm sure you didn't know) they are not genetic defects. :wink:


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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4466265 - 07/28/05 10:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Being of sound mental and physical health doesn't mean one is able to raise children properly...


What about people of below-average intelligence? Should those of us with above-average intelligence be able to prevent all the "dummies" from reproducing?

I garuntee you that there are examples of people with severe mental health problems raising perfectly-normal and well-adjusted children. Who are you to say that they shouldn't even be given the chance to do so?





You assume too much my friend. "Dummies" should be able to reproduce as long as they can responsibly raise their child. I said no more, no less.
My aunt now and them visits the sanatorium for long period treatments, sometimes she has panic attacks and break all the stuff around her. When she was living with us, she killed our dog, by drowning him in a well with no remorse at all. The dog was barking too loud that night. She ran away from her room in the middle of the night because she had a bad dream. Drugs make her completely numb, apathetic and dissociated.
Now, how can you justify her freedom to reproduction when sometimes she doesn't even know what's happening around her ? What if our dog was her kid crying or screaming at night ?

Total freedom or no freedom. How can you be attracted to such an extremist view ? "Are you against us, or are you with us" rings a bell in my head. The freedom i believe also lack laws but it's not total, it's "responsible".
My point is, there's a middle point for everything and all aspects must be considered when evaluating each situation. Do you know of any asylum where the medics and psychiatrists let their patients have sex ? I don't . But i also know of people with mongolism which have totally healthy kids. But before making a family they proved to themselves and to others, they were responsible to do so. It surely is a rewarded effort.

So, as you see, this is a mixed bag. I don't support the idea of infanticide of the handicapped. Let's separate things. One thing is not reproducing and raising someone, another different thing is killing someone because of its genetics.

We can also relate this discussion to the aspects of abortion, but i'll let you think about its relationship to what you call "total freedom".
It's late ...

MAIA


--------------------
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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: MAIA]
    #4466367 - 07/28/05 11:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I hadn't thought about people actually locked up, but they can't have sex because they're locked up.

They've already had their freedom taken away (rightly so).

There are no half freedoms. We cannot make something free for some people to do, but single out a certain group for persecution. That's racism, or fascism.

It's one of the same arguments they use in the war on drugs. Coke makes some people so violent they hurt other people...so we should ban it because it will make people violent and others will get hurt.

Well it doesn't make everyone violent, so we think it's a bad law because it bans responsible people from doing something they enjoy - and not hurting anyone else.

Not all people with serious mental disabilities should have children, but there's no reason why the rest can't. The ones who shouldn't have children should probably be locked up. If the ones you don't lock up have children and then can't care for the children, we already have child services in place to place the child in a caring home.

People with serious inheritable diseases will have lived with those diseases for their entire lives. Who better to understand the ramifications of bringing a child into the world in that particular state? If they have been able to live a life of agony, but still be functional and happy enough to have a child...the disease can't be that bad.


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