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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Diploid]
    #4465660 - 07/28/05 08:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,789
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Diploid]
    #4465739 - 07/28/05 08:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
While I agree that laws should never interfere in people's personal lives, there's a bigger issue.

What if the child to be isn't just destined for disability. What if that child is destined for a short life of deformity, mental retardation, and constant intractable pain before death at, say, age 10 and this can be shown through genetic analysis that it is a certainty?

Now should the law prevent the parents from conceiving?




Children like this are born to healthy adults all the time.

Banning persons with disabilities from reproducing is prejudice against persons with disabilities, because healthy people have disabled children all the time.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4465754 - 07/28/05 08:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Healthy people have children like that all the time?

Do you have a single shred of evidence supporting this?

I'm willing to wager that the % of completely healthy adults who have children in the same shape as diploid described is extremely rare. Not even close to be statistically significant.

Also, diploid was being inclusive to healthy people. He was just stating IF you knew ahead of time that the couple would produce such off spring, regardless of their current health, should we allow them to reproduce?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4465832 - 07/28/05 08:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Also, diploid was being inclusive to healthy people. He was just stating IF you knew ahead of time that the couple would produce such off spring, regardless of their current health, should we allow them to reproduce?

I would let them decide if they want to have the child or not, but I wouldn't force them not to. I can't justify taking away their freedoms.

Do you have a single shred of evidence supporting this?

In my own experience: I have never met a parent of a disabled child who was, themselves, disabled. I don't doubt that the risk is much higher for people who are themselves disabled...but obviously (to me) healthy parents having disabled children is not uncommon.

"It should be noted the majority of birth defects occur in parents with no problems and are perfectly healthy."
http://www.anguillian.com/article/articleview/2562/1/133/

That's just from a quick google search...


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4465865 - 07/28/05 08:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Also, diploid was being inclusive to healthy people. He was just stating IF you knew ahead of time that the couple would produce such off spring, regardless of their current health, should we allow them to reproduce?

I would let them decide if they want to have the child or not, but I wouldn't force them not to. I can't justify taking away their freedoms.





Wow, so you'd put a child through an entire life time of anguish and pain just so the parents can have their child?

I think the difference between you and I is that you are a sadist and I'm not.
Quote:


Do you have a single shred of evidence supporting this?

In my own experience: I have never met a parent of a disabled child who was, themselves, disabled. I don't doubt that the risk is much higher for people who are themselves disabled...but obviously (to me) healthy parents having disabled children is not uncommon.

"It should be noted the majority of birth defects occur in parents with no problems and are perfectly healthy."
http://www.anguillian.com/article/articleview/2562/1/133/

That's just from a quick google search...



From the article you provided:
How common are birth defects?
The exact incidence of birth defects is difficult to determine due to lack of reporting and differences in determining different types of birth defects. Heart defects are the most common type of birth defects.


Wow, amazing evidence. I'm convinced!


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4465872 - 07/28/05 09:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I would let them decide if they want to have the child or not, but I wouldn't force them not to. I can't justify taking away their freedoms.

I have mixed feelings.

I see someone bringing into the world a child assured to live such a tortured life as not much different from someone taking a healthy child and torturing him. The end result is very similar: one innocent suffering tremendously at the hands of his parents, then dying young after an unfulfilled life.

So although I have a very strong inhibition against interfering in other people's lives, I also have a very strong drive to prevent pain and suffering where I can, and this leaves wondering if it wouldn't be for the greater good to prevent such births, by force if necessary.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Diploid]
    #4465943 - 07/28/05 09:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The effects of a child rapist would be milder than the ones you proposed.

So needless to say, I agree with you.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4465999 - 07/28/05 09:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think the difference between you and I is that you are a sadist and I'm not.

I think the difference between you and I is that you are a fascist and I'm not.

How do you know the child, however badly deformed and in pain, will not cherish every moment of his/her life? Yes such an outlook may be unlikely, but you do not know for sure.

Instead you want to take freedom away from three people? You would take away the parents' freedom to chose? Take away the child's freedom to chose if they want to live or die?


Also, your constant referal to child rape/molestation has me a little worried, but is also a well-known dirty debate tactic: "the lunatic edge". By attempting to link my argument with rape, molestation, and sadism, you are attempting to remove the focus from my actual argument. It indicates that you have no real argument against it :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
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Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Diploid]
    #4466011 - 07/28/05 09:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I also have a very strong drive to prevent pain and suffering where I can, and this leaves wondering if it wouldn't be for the greater good to prevent such births, by force if necessary.

Can you explain how a child who lives a life of pain effects "the greater good"?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,789
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Diploid]
    #4466026 - 07/28/05 09:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The end result is very similar: one innocent suffering tremendously at the hands of his parents, then dying young after an unfulfilled life.

That's a very bad wording to use, as I think the general example would be two parents caring for their disabled child in every way possible.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4466027 - 07/28/05 09:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I think the difference between you and I is that you are a sadist and I'm not.

I think the difference between you and I is that you are a fascist and I'm not.

How do you know the child, however badly deformed and in pain, will not cherish every moment of his/her life? Yes such an outlook may be unlikely, but you do not know for sure.





You admit it's unlikely, then question why I wouldn't take that chance?

Insert logic here please.

Quote:

Take away the child's freedom to chose if they want to live or die?




A child chooses whether or not it wants to be born? This is new to me.

Also, a child not being born isn't considered dying or death. If that was the case, we are all murderers for not having sex right this moment and making babies.

Quote:

Also, your constant referal to child rape/molestation has me a little worried, but is also a well-known dirty debate tactic: "the lunatic edge". By attempting to link my argument with rape, molestation, and sadism, you are attempting to remove the focus from my actual argument. It indicates that you have no real argument against it




I call it my OTD sense of humor.
I like the sound of "the lunatic edge" though. I think I'll use that for now on.

Oh, and lastly, "referal" isn't a word.  :smirk:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4466051 - 07/28/05 09:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, and lastly, "referal" isn't a word.

Wow, I missed an 'r'...I guess you win, eh? :rolleyes:


As for this whole discussion, you've moved it away from

"Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce?"

to "should a pregnant couple who have just had a DNA test determine, without a doubt, that their child will be deformed and in pain be allowed to have the birth?"

Why did you need to make it so specific?

What parent would bring such a child into the world, given the choice?

Do you think we should start checking the DNA of every pregnancy, to catch the deformed-in-pain ones?

Does a genetic condition with the effects Diploid listed even exist???


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4466066 - 07/28/05 09:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And while we are over that edge...


Maybe we should prevent the poor from reproducing, as well? They don't have the money to give their children a good life, so they are setting them up for a life of emotional anguish and depression.

What about those with cluster-migrains? They shouldn't have to go through life with all that pain...might as well just put them out of their misery, eh?

Where does it end, spud? Where do you stop the line, once you've drawn a line through freedom?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4466078 - 07/28/05 09:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Oh, and lastly, "referal" isn't a word.

W
As for this whole discussion, you've moved it away from

"Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce?"

to "should a pregnant couple who have just had a DNA test determine, without a doubt, that their child will be deformed and in pain be allowed to have the birth?"

Why did you need to make it so specific?





What the fuck are you talking about? Diploid prosed that question and shifted the topic. I was responding to him.

Have trouble reading?

Quote:


What parent would bring such a child into the world, given the choice?





From what you've said so far, it sounds like you yourself would make that choice.
Quote:

Do you think we should start checking the DNA of every pregnancy, to catch the deformed-in-pain ones?




That sounds like a wonderful idea.
Quote:

Does a genetic condition with the effects Diploid listed even exist???



Conditions MUCH worst than the one diploid mentioned exist.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4466083 - 07/28/05 09:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:

Where does it end, spud? Where do you stop the line, once you've drawn a line through freedom?




I'm sure if I really wanted to, I could draw a pretty reasonable, not too arbitrary line.

Anyways, I'm out once again. Off for dinner. Cya!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4466091 - 07/28/05 09:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

From what you've said so far, it sounds like you yourself would make that choice.

How do you figure?

I said you should give people the choice, not "I would do it" :wink: :rolleyes:

I'm pro-choice...not pro-manditory-abortions.

That sounds like a wonderful idea.

Do you support manditory finger-printing of all newborns?

Conditions MUCH worst than the one diploid mentioned exist.

Name one.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4466106 - 07/28/05 09:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Absolutley not. Just adopt. There are plenty of children who need homes, and if you spout shit like "it's your right", then you are being selfish and irresponsible. An adopted child will be much happier than a child born out of a selfish narccisistic need to deny reality, with an inherent defect.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4466110 - 07/28/05 09:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Name one.



I really need to get going, but here:

Child with almost total deformity of the face; no recognizable features at all, and what appears to be one eye situated in the middle of the forehead.

Child with hydrocephalus.

Extreme hydrocephalus; deformity of face, body and ear. The line running down the right hand side of the head would appear to show that potentially two heads were forming.


Huge hole in child's back, which is an extreme form of Spina Bifida.





Zyklopie.

Like I said, I really have to go. Though now my appetite is fairly spoiled. Thanks.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4466123 - 07/28/05 10:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How many of those fetuses survived until birth, in the first place?

Pictures aren't names, by the way...

Also, are you aware that neither Spina Bifida or hydrocephalus are genetic birth defects? They are caused by abnormalities during fetal development...


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4466127 - 07/28/05 10:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Actually I've seen all of those pictures before.

They are almost all from Iraq, and are suspected cases of exposure to depleted-uranium :smirk:

What page did you find them on?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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