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OfflinePuZuZu
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4462138 - 07/28/05 12:38 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
In the wild, murder is an essential part of natural selection. The weakest prey will not be able to escape the predator, and will therefore become food; two fighting wolves will continue until one murders the other. So to say murder is unnatural goes against the observations in nature.

Suicide is another story. I haven't seen any records of multicellular conscious mammals other than humans committing suicide, but on a smaller scale, cells commit suicide all the time as a way to help the survival of the organism on the whole. I don't necessarily think suicide is unnatural, as I do believe humans are just partially following their instinct- the main difference is that we have the means and the conscious thought to be able to commit suicide, while other mammals don't.

Of course, this is debatable, and in the end will boil down to the argument over how natural humans really are. Humans are naturally developed animals after all, so would the suicide of one of these animals also be as natural as the suicide of a cell? Would murder with a gun be as natural as murder in the wolf's jaws?




Yeah murder for survival purposes is perfectly 'natural'. Its not civilized for us folks living in human communities with healthy amounts of food and security.

Suicide by a cell to me isnt comparable to the full organism of a human but thats the beauty of life, theres multiple perceptions. In my oppinion cells are committing suicide based on the DNA's unconcious direction, not emotions.


--------------------
"If you worried about falling off the bike, you would never get on."
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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4462161 - 07/28/05 12:42 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

How would they be stopped from reproducing? Constant monitoring? Forced sterilization?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: PuZuZu]
    #4462179 - 07/28/05 12:47 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah murder for survival purposes is perfectly 'natural'.




In nature, it's not always for direct survival purposes; sometimes it's simply for one organism to expand. If another organism is in its way, oftentimes the more successful one will murder the weaker one. And is this unnatural? It is done in more cases than with humanity, yet when humanity does it we give it a category of its own.

Quote:

In my oppinion cells are committing suicide based on the DNA's unconcious direction, not emotions.




The potential for emotions is created by DNA. And even so, emotions are completely natural, so would the emotions of sadness or frustration that drive some humans to suicide be considered unnatural? Evidently not; they are naturally created. So why is the act of suicide then considered unnatural, when it's really just a cause and effect?

The emotions, or cause of suicide, are natural, if we accept the human mind as following its animal emotions and instincts to an extent. The cause of suicide is possible mostly because of our advancement of technology and superior minds to other animals, who are more controlled by simple instinct while the instinct to survive of humans can be overpowered by sheer emotion. Either way, I wouldn't consider it unnatural, but rather just an unforeseen reaction to creating a more intelligent, conscious creature like a human.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: moog]
    #4462190 - 07/28/05 12:49 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

moog said:
How would they be stopped from reproducing? Constant monitoring? Forced sterilization?




Forced sterilization, or eugenics, seems the best way. It's been tried first by the USA, then by Nazi Germany, but both programs were unsurprisingly ended. Evidently it's not as successful as one would theoretically think if the United States decided to stop their program of forced sterilization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_sterilization is an interesting article on the subject.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflinePuZuZu
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4462290 - 07/28/05 01:06 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
In nature, it's not always for direct survival purposes; sometimes it's simply for one organism to expand. If another organism is in its way, oftentimes the more successful one will murder the weaker one. And is this unnatural? It is done in more cases than with humanity, yet when humanity does it we give it a category of its own.




Humans are superior minded then the rest of the animal kingdom and sittuations can get very specific. I spose many sittuations of murder are natural and fair or primitive enough to not be evil but I still think that the beauty of humans is choice, to pick another outcome instead of murder.

Quote:


The potential for emotions is created by DNA. And even so, emotions are completely natural, so would the emotions of sadness or frustration that drive some humans to suicide be considered unnatural? Evidently not; they are naturally created. So why is the act of suicide then considered unnatural, when it's really just a cause and effect?





Emotions are created by DNA but cells aren't created to run by emotions. They run by basic links of ribosomes and whatnot. Humans have emotion which I think give the ability of suicide but go against it. We may commit suicide but we aren't willing to do it. It isn't natural because it isn't easy or benefiting on the society as a whole.

I'll exchange more with you tomorrow, I'm going to bed cause I have to wake up early. This is fun cause its opening up my mind to other possibilities. Hope its the same for you.

Peace.  :peace:


--------------------
"If you worried about falling off the bike, you would never get on."
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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4463535 - 07/28/05 07:45 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Yes and no. Yes, one should be free to reproduce as long as one is capable of being responsible and taking care of its descendants. No, if the handicap is so profound that you can't be up to the responsibility of educating and taking care of your kids. Freedom should exist only if there is responsibility.

About natural selection. Mankind has evolved through natural selection for many years and it still affects us. But man created society as a way to replace some of the natural aspects of life. Reproduction is a natural aspect controlled, in part, by society, therefore saying that natural selection will take care of things is a one sided view of the whole reproductive aspect. Society plays an important role when it comes to protect, sustain, educate and control a new generation.

I have a profound schizophrenic aunt, she's 50 years old now. After living a part of my life with her, i concluded that she never had and will never have the capacity to raise a child. She's not responsible enough to do it, it's the kind of case which the handicap affects her beyond the capability of having a child.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: MAIA]
    #4464353 - 07/28/05 01:50 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

About natural selection. Mankind has evolved through natural selection for many years and it still affects us. But man created society as a way to replace some of the natural aspects of life. Reproduction is a natural aspect controlled, in part, by society, therefore saying that natural selection will take care of things is a one sided view of the whole reproductive aspect. Society plays an important role when it comes to protect, sustain, educate and control a new generation.




Man has not replaced any of the aspects of natural selection. This is all part of our potential, raising a society and government, and if it increases our chances of survival and of helping others, then that's simply also a part of natural selection.

Reproduction is in part regulated by society, but society is made up of human animals who follow a logic about how to regulate it. If an ant's or bee's hive had a way to regulate their reproduction, killing the obviously flawed bees or stopping the weaker bees from reproducing, would this not fit under natural selection? Natural selection can easily be imprinted into the behavior of animals themselves if it helps their survival, as it has in humans and others to a certain extent.

In the end, I don't believe there is any way to escape natural selection, because we are simply animals trying to increase our survival. As long as organisms are mortal, despite whatever societies or buildings or technology they get, natural selection will still be the same powerful force acting upon life.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: MAIA]
    #4464469 - 07/28/05 02:26 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

have a profound schizophrenic aunt, she's 50 years old now. After living a part of my life with her, i concluded that she never had and will never have the capacity to raise a child. She's not responsible enough to do it, it's the kind of case which the handicap affects her beyond the capability of having a child.

Being of sound mental and physical health doesn't mean one is able to raise children properly...


What about people of below-average intelligence? Should those of us with above-average intelligence be able to prevent all the "dummies" from reproducing?

I garuntee you that there are examples of people with severe mental health problems raising perfectly-normal and well-adjusted children. Who are you to say that they shouldn't even be given the chance to do so?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4464530 - 07/28/05 02:44 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
have a profound schizophrenic aunt, she's 50 years old now. After living a part of my life with her, i concluded that she never had and will never have the capacity to raise a child. She's not responsible enough to do it, it's the kind of case which the handicap affects her beyond the capability of having a child.

Being of sound mental and physical health doesn't mean one is able to raise children properly...


What about people of below-average intelligence? Should those of us with above-average intelligence be able to prevent all the "dummies" from reproducing?





Schizophrenia and below-average intelligence are two things far apart. Schizophrenics are far from a good candidate for raising a child.

Also 35% of couples in which both parents are schizophrenic the child has it, and 10% of those in which only one has it, the child gets it passed on.

Taking the risk of passing it on is a very selfish thing to do on behalf of the parents.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464536 - 07/28/05 02:47 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Why so? Schizophrenic people are just human as anyone else, and want to reproduce like anyone else.

Quote:

Who are you to say that they shouldn't even be given the chance to do so?




Perhaps he's someone with the power to stop them from reproducing? Might makes right, and if someone can stop people from reproducing, subjective morals aside there's nothing evil about it.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4464547 - 07/28/05 02:50 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Why so? Schizophrenic people are just human as anyone else, and want to reproduce like anyone else.





That doesn't even make sense. How do you measure one's "human"?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464550 - 07/28/05 02:52 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Schizophrenics are far from a good candidate for raising a child.

Someone with an IQ of 70 is far from a good candidate for raising a child.

The point I'm trying to make here is: where do you draw the line? Because any line you draw is going to be very arbitrary. You should also realize that no matter how "fit" you are to raise a child...there will always be someone who is more "fit" to raise a child than you are.

If you can decide that the people lower than you on the "child-raising fitness" scale shouldn't be allowed to have children...there is nothing from preventing those higher than you on the scale from similary chosing to prevent you from having children.

Freedom for all, or freedom for none. There are no half-measures when it comes to freedom.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4464564 - 07/28/05 02:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4657897.stm

Read this, I think you will find it interesting.

It will give you a chuckle, if anything.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464566 - 07/28/05 02:57 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
Quote:

Ravus said:
Why so? Schizophrenic people are just human as anyone else, and want to reproduce like anyone else.





That doesn't even make sense. How do you measure one's "human"?




I meant "just as human" but missed that omission when I read it over.

Simply because they have a mental condition, does that take away their natural instinct to reproduce and continue their genetic line? You say it's selfish because it's not good for the kid, but what about people with genetic predispositions to becoming obese or having cancer? Should we call them selfish for wanting kids and stop them from reproducing?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4464574 - 07/28/05 03:00 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

My genetic predispositions in alcoholism and violence have inclined me to rape children.

I realize the child may be harmed, but don't call me selfish. I am following some element beyond my control. I am a victim of society and genetics. Let me be.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: Ravus]
    #4464577 - 07/28/05 03:01 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
I meant "just as human" but missed that omission when I read it over.

Simply because they have a mental condition, does that take away their natural instinct to reproduce and continue their genetic line? You say it's selfish because it's not good for the kid, but what about people with genetic predispositions to becoming obese or having cancer? Should we call them selfish for wanting kids and stop them from reproducing?




Didn't you know? We only allow perfect people to reproduce now :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464585 - 07/28/05 03:04 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
Yes or no? Please give support backing up your opinion.




yes, if there is a need to burry those genes into the ground forever, then nature will take care of it by itself.

People like to play nature in the name of natural selection:
they see how in nature the weakest gets eaten by a beast, and then they go and beat their neighbour because he is "weak". That is not natural selection, that is frustration and neurosis. In fact, by playing the stronger link in social darvinism, you are proving to be the weaker link in universal natural selection: a selfdestructing mockery of a living being.

We humans still have our sexual instincts that tell use what genes are good and what are bad for reproduction. If some mutations are so dangerous that the nature should burry them, then we will not feel desire for such people. This is where nature works in us, not in some social laws.

And besides, we are a species in progress, if we alow a lethal mutation to spread further, we will have more people with the same problem and more motivation to find a cure. And with enough time, any cure for any disease or problem can be fixed.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: spud]
    #4464589 - 07/28/05 03:05 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

That's different. Entirely different, and I'll tell you why:

You have performed an illegal action. Thus you deserve punishment.

Preventing parents from even trying to raise children is preventing them from making "mistakes" that they haven't made yet and may never actually make.


In your example, that would be equivalent to castrating you at birth due to your genetic disposition - that way you can't ever make the mistake of raping a child.


Give people the chance to make their own mistakes, then punish them accordingly if they make a mistake.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4464595 - 07/28/05 03:07 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Laws are completely arbitrary. This is a discussion in philosophy, hence the location of this thread here and not in in the politics and law forum.

For all you know, next year it could be made illegal for people with serious inheritable disabilities to reproduce.

I wanted a timeless discussion on the ethics, not a regurgitation of current law.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Should people with serious inheritable disabilities be allowed to reproduce? [Re: trendal]
    #4464604 - 07/28/05 03:09 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Oh, and the mistake would be in taking the risk of passing on bad genes to an innocent child, not a mistake in the way you raised them. The top priority of my concern is an innocent, loving child having to live a life with a horrible disease such as schizophrenia due to selfish and inconsiderate parents.


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