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Offlineegghead1
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Buddhist view on God!
    #3921166 - 03/15/05 03:28 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I found this link very interesting, i admit that ignorant of the buddhist standpoint up until now.

http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhist_attitude_to_god.htm

The gods are all eternal scoundrels
Incapable of dissolving the suffering of impermanence.
Those who serve them and venerate them
May even in this world sink into a sea of sorrow.
We know the gods are false and have no concrete being;
Therefore the wise man believes them not
The fate of the world depends on causes and conditions
Therefore the wise man many not rely on gods.

Mah?paj?p?ramit?shâstra

Any comments?


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Buddhist view on God! [Re: egghead1]
    #3921225 - 03/15/05 03:49 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

it is interesting and kind of basic in a high brow way
I find it funny that no mention of abhidhamma is made
nor of the 3 negative and 3 positive roots of karma and how they are intrinsic to each mind moment (it does get into karma but only as relates to deva worlds) then it contetiously states:

Quote:

The path of the Buddha cannot be followed if a person is deluded by the notion of God. This is why a correct understanding of all the ramifications of the God-idea is essential for anyone seeking to progress along the Buddhist path to total liberation.




I think it is a bit dogmatic to say that, especially since the term "deluded" is floating, undefined or is defined in that one line itself, otherwise it is informative.

IMO we become devas here on earth when the going is good and pretas or hungry ghosts when not - all while in the same physical body.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Buddhist view on God! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3921255 - 03/15/05 03:59 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

good view... yet poorly defined...

I can tell you alot of what to do, what to believe, even how to believe it... If I tell you however nothing in a definate term... I don't tell you much of anything.

(As per the post, not the link)


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Buddhist view on God! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3921377 - 03/15/05 04:32 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

There are thousands of volumes of Buddhist scriptures which do not give mention to the abhidharma. I think the information given in the text clearly states why a person seeking liberation cannot attain it if notions of a supreme god are held in mind. This text addresses what it says it does, without going to much in depth into Buddhist philosphy of the different realms of samsara, there are plenty of other text pertaining to that area of Buddhist philosophy.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Buddhist view on God! [Re: egghead1]
    #3921767 - 03/15/05 06:06 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

why do you think devas and other realms are mentioned more than once and why is delusion used as a term to be defined only in useage as god belief?

it is not bad per se unless used to be divisive, yet the title and idea do seem somewhat oriented towards being divisive, and then in the last line, that term "delusion"...

to me it is a bit like frustrated people calling eachother "mad".

In buddhism, delusion must only be perceived as a negative root within oneself when appropriate, that is all it should be used for as a term. One would not conduct oneself as if they could read another's mind. (People often seem to think they know what another's mind holds but their own remains a mystery)

Enlightenment in buddhism is also a personal process dependent upon the 8-fold path, AKA the middle way, which specifically includes meditation. I bet there is plenty of frustration brewing in some of those bhikkus' pants to come up with this type of thing.

if they stick to the program (the middle way) I don't think that this type of document would be formed.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Buddhist view on God! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3921949 - 03/15/05 06:51 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Its just giving advice based on sutra scripture pertaining to the belief in a supreme God.

I dont mean this in an antagonistic way, but who are you to say what the term 'delusion' should and shouldnt be used for? This word has multiple meanings, and i find it quite appropriatly used in this text, as anything concept held within the mind to me, could be called a delusion.

Where in the text was there any mention of reading anothers mind?

Enlightenment is a person process dependant on the 8 fold path, thats exactly what the text is stating, knowhere in the 8 fold path is a belief in God emphasized. This text was simply illterating the problems of serving such a belief.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Buddhist view on God! [Re: egghead1]
    #3921989 - 03/15/05 07:03 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Well-written article. I have struggled with how to assign the places of Buddha and Christ to my life. I have my own solution, you may have your own. I am a Western man, raised Reform Jew, a seeker who studied with many schools, and one who received Christian Baptism. I have learned from the greatest philosophers in history, and for me, Christ is enthroned as the Lord of my Heart, while Buddha and Plato represent contemporaneous philosophers - the greatest representative of East and West.

I have no intention of insulting any Buddhists. Many Buddhists would similarly regard Christ as a Bodhisattva. A Muslim would regard Christ as a Prophet. The Center of each person's personal mandala is one's Heart, and the ONE who receives the greatest love resides at that Center. Other beings reside in circles peripheral to the Center. I have had a prayer life since I was a child. It disappeared for years and then reappeared. It is not only Petitionary Prayer, but Intecessory Prayer, Prayers of Thanksgiving (most spontaneous) and Contemplative Prayer. Before I became a Christian (in my identity) I attempted to get by with Contemplative Prayer alone, which I called Meditation (I was in training to become a teacher of Transcendental Meditation). When my failures in life brought me to my knees in tears, something that seemed Truly Transcendental began to operate in me. Christians call It the Holy Spirit, but how That differs from Christ I have never understood. I was left with the words of scripture that best described a New Center operating within me. Those were Paul's words: "I live, yet not I; Christ liveth in me."

I still struggle to extricate myself from the God of superstition, in fact that is exactly the theme of an odd book I happened upon by a philosopher who died in 1937 named Constantin Brunner in his book 'OUR CHRIST: The Revolt of the Mystical Genius.' The writings of John Shelby Spong have aided me in this process, but still the exquisite complexity of creation, illusion though it may be relative to eternity, bespeaks of a Creator. Certainly not 'a' person, God is 'at least' personal, not less-than personal. Transpersonal - not an Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky. As Plato taught me - everything is an Idea in the Mind of God, and as such we all have Eternal Life. And as Buddha taught me - don't trifle with trying to grasp what that would be like to experience - just Be Here Now. Somehow, it WILL all come together in the end.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Buddhist view on God! [Re: egghead1]
    #3922105 - 03/15/05 07:38 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

egghead1 said:I dont mean this in an antagonistic way, but who are you to say what the term 'delusion' should and shouldnt be used for? This word has multiple meanings, and i find it quite appropriatly used in this text, as anything concept held within the mind to me, could be called a delusion.





since delusion has multiple potential meanings, and none is defined within the text, the text fails except to decry any belief in god and to foment confusion about terms - and that is not responsible IMO.

some people are able to process God into a positive path, and it should be a personal thing. In discussing buddhism I think attempts should remain focussed on what it is, not what it is not, and terms should be clear and simple, as the complex falls into mumbo jumbo and that is not a buddhist intent.

and who am I to say what delusion can be and cannot be.

nobody.

I just like any particular word to mean one thing only.
This one, is found in buddhist texts meaning one of the 3 roots of bad karma as relates to citta: hatred greed and delusion. does it really have any other place?
I don't think so.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Buddhist view on God! [Re: egghead1]
    #3923441 - 03/16/05 12:12 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I found this link very interesting, i admit that ignorant of the buddhist standpoint up until now.




Keep in mind there are many different historical movements and schools of Buddhist thought - there is no one "Buddhist standpoint." The Pure Land school practically worship Amitabha as a god who will deliever one to a paradise; Theravadins will follow the direct teachings of the historical Buddha and say that gods are irrevelent to one's salvation; and Zen will say that worshipping these external gods are a distraction from Buddhamind.


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