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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Is the physical world independent of consciousness?
    #3042286 - 08/24/04 02:27 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

It seems that various spiritual or psychadelic experiences lead people to the conclusion that consciousness creates reality and that the physical world is an illusion. People talk about being one with the cosmos and transcedening of the physical plain to learn that reality is ALL in the mind. Hindus, some Buddhists, and lots of hippies believe that physical reality itself is a product of pre-existent consciousness.

Fine. But, remember this all happens within the mind. Can these experiences really say anything about the true nature of reality, or simply the true nature of the mind? Wouldn't it be a mistake to say just because your experience within your mind leads you to understand that your brain creates reality and that all things are one, that consciousness is the sole source of existance?

When people talk about reality being created by our minds I have to wonder, where does the consistancy from, and how does my mind create such complex things without even thinking about them?
Considering the complexity, vastness, and consistency of the physical world how can you say that the mind is or creates everything? I might buy the Hindu idea that reality is the dream in the mind of God, and that we are little parts of God, but I don't except the idea that reality is manufactured out of nothing by the individual island-universe mind.

It makes more sense to me that yes, consciousness is independent of physical existence, and yes, the mind interperets and structures reality through the senses, but the physical world does exist in some form apart from consciousness (at least our own, anyway). It makes sense that neither consciousness of physicality be pre-existent of each other. They exist seperately, and when they interact we get what we call life.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3042490 - 08/24/04 03:18 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Is the physical world independent of consciousness?
I'd say that the physical world's independence from consciousness is dependent on who's measuring it...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3042721 - 08/24/04 04:39 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

When people talk about reality being created by our minds I have to wonder, where does the consistancy from, and how does my mind create such complex things without even thinking about them?

We do a lot of things every day without thinking about them, thanks to subconscious memory. Consider this: what's the difference between the waking reality you see around you and a reality you imagine in your mind with the greatest of detail and consistency?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3042734 - 08/24/04 04:48 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

"Can these experiences really say anything about the true nature of reality, or simply the true nature of the mind?"

To the ego there is no difference. What we see is what we believe is there, despite the fact that it is just our interpretation. There is something there, beyond the ego, but we will never know what it is, because our entire reality of the cosmos is how we interpret it, how we sense it, all of it is variant and just illusions. The concept of reality being Maya, an illusion, is true: so is the physical world then reality? If it is not reality, what is it?

"It makes sense that neither consciousness of physicality be pre-existent of each other. They exist seperately, and when they interact we get what we call life."

Perhaps... but remember, not everything is in the human mind. Consciousness, there is no "consciousness part" of the human mind. We don't know where consciousness comes from. Perhaps consciousness is part of a cosmic consciousness, and the mind and body are just vessels for it. There is more unity than the physical, and there is more to reality than we could ever imagine, simply because we're only equipped to deal with our survival, not to realize the nature of the cosmos beyond the ego's perception of it. The ego makes us realize from the void beyond human perception that which we need to realize to only survive in this cosmic chaos


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlineevilchipmunk
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3042828 - 08/24/04 06:28 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Personally I don't believe consciousness and physicality exist separately at all. Take that Hindu idea you mentioned, that we are little parts of god.. this is probably the closest to my personal understanding. The thing is, why should physical energy be excluded from that idea of god? Our bodies are as much a part of ourselves as our consciousness, as far as I can see. I don't consider them to be seperate at all.

The only reason we consider our bodies to be seperate from our consciousness is because we separate ourselves from our physical environment. We have this feeling that we stand apart, because we are more perceptive than physicality, we are more aware, and therefore better. Wouldn't you rather be a human than a rock? This is ego. Think about it. We may have a deep, complicated perception of our own subjective reality, but who's to say seemingly inanimate objects aren't conscious on a much less complicated level?

It may sound silly to think that all physical matter might be alive, but it sort of fits with this consciousness-creates-reality theology. Indeed, how could your subjective mind create the universe in all its vast complexities, and yet remain consistant with the perceptions of other entities? Wouldn't it be more plausible to consider that perhaps the universe itself is alive and creates itself, so to speak? Perhaps 'I think, therefore I am' would be better worded, 'I percieve, therefore I am'. Our thoughts are a part of our perceptions, anyway. The universe percieves, and therefore exists.

Well, I want to add more.. but I'm high and tired, and I probably rambled too much already. :P I hope most of that made sense.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: evilchipmunk]
    #3043537 - 08/24/04 11:37 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

We are not our physical bodies. That is to say the self you associate with is not. Ever noticed how our subconscious (also not us) controls everything including this typing action -> post action. Meditate on who/what your *self* really is, and you will find that like everything, it is nothing.

I agree that we have a dualistic approach with our surroundings, which is why we have words like "external" "natural" "outside". This still does not take away from the fact that "we" have no real say over this body (in a certain sense). But still, try what I said to experience it firsthand :smile:


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OfflineSource
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3043645 - 08/24/04 12:09 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Don't forget Atman=Brahman

This is from an Indian Glossary...

"This dual nature of the single divinity or totality of the universe, Brahman and Atman, gets worked out in the following way. Brahman can be located both in the physical, external world and also in the spiritual and inner world where it is present as Atman, "universal spirit." Now every human being has an undying soul (atman) which, because of samsara, lasts through eternity from life to life; this undying atman is a microcosm of Atman, the universal spirit, which is identical to Brahman. By understanding your true Self, by coming to know one's own undying soul, one then arrives at the knowledge of Brahman itself; the key to understanding the nature of the one unitary principle of the universe is to see one's (undying) self as identical with Brahman: "aham asmi Brahman": I am Brahman.

Here's the equation: Brahman=Atman=atman. Brahman is the totality of the universe as it is present outside of you;, Atman is the totality of the universe as it is present within you; Brahman is the totality of the world known objectively, Atman is the totality of the world known subjectively. This equation fundamentally underlies the whole of Krishna's teachings concerning dharma in the Baghavad Gita ."

So the 'Mind' inside you = the objective world outside you. Neither creates neither, though they are mutually dependent.

That's one explaination anyway...


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What you're searching for is what's searching.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3043690 - 08/24/04 12:24 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

well it can't be completely independant because my fingers are moving right now


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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Offlinedeff
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Strumpling]
    #3043757 - 08/24/04 12:45 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, but the concept of an external physical reality is an internally created one.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3043767 - 08/24/04 12:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

It's true that in the deepest states of awareness there is no inside or outside, but from an 'outside' perspective such as another person or a scientist, consciousness is limited to the mind. There may be no inside or outside IN the mind, but from another perspective there is an outside. What is happening in your thoughts I cannot be aware of, therefore it is outside of my sphere of consciousness.
In your mind your thoughts and my words may be two parts of the same thing, but I cannot know your thoughts.

I will state again, I do believe that consciousness is seperate from the body and perception, it is not found in the brain, but I also don't believe the world is entirely fabricated by the brain.
More like the world exists in darkness and consciousness comes in and turns on the light.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3043786 - 08/24/04 12:54 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Take every human off of the planet and send them to the other end of the galaxy. A very physical planet earth will still be here. Now, drop all of them back onto the planet. Every individual will be seeing it and experiencing it in their own way.

"Common" reality only occurs when a majority share the same perspective and beliefs about something. Even then many lines blur from one to another. I love it when people tell others to get in touch with reality (who's) or that they are being (unrealistic) by what beleif system and perspective?

One person sees a disaster and feels helpless and hopeless and another looks at the same situation and sees opportunity and in hope, helps themselves to it. In this sense, we make things out to be what they are to us, out of the "what just is" .

It's as if the what is, is asking us, "tell me what am I?"


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3043791 - 08/24/04 12:55 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Yup, glad you saw my point. External and internal are two """internal""" ideas. You cannot escape where you are now. These are mere symbols to describe something that doesn't exist (duality).

I have no strong incline either way to believe if consciousness is seperate in that manner from the physical. However, I have had some experiences communicating with my subconscious, whereby "it" showed me how everything is within me, and that *it* is the conditioning that allows for my own existance. I was not on drugs for this, but it was in a trance state - and it could have been delusional. The fact remains though that this here is the now, and that is unescapable.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3043843 - 08/24/04 01:07 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I wanted to add to my comment about how the what is is contiually asking of us "what am I?" It is also asking, "tell me what I am not and what I can become?" Think of how we go through life looking here and there saying you are this, no wait, you are not that, you can be this instead. " and the cycle repeats and "it" comes to understand itself in greater and great depth and diversity.

This is also why the all that is will always be one step ahead of us and can never be completely 'captured".

In this sense, you can reapply the mirrors theory and that is what makes what is out there a reflection of what is within.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: deff]
    #3044474 - 08/24/04 04:01 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

well you just replied to my message - which one of us doesn't physically exist?


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Source]
    #3044833 - 08/24/04 05:27 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Don't forget Atman=Brahman

And Batman = Rahbin  :grin:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3044896 - 08/24/04 05:41 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

If everything is within in the mind, what are our sense organs for? Decoration? Indeed, could the mind even create reality for the consciousness if it did not exist in an external physical form?

We can clearly see that our physical brain governs our thinking and our perception of sensory input. That should be apparent to anyone on this board that has used mind altering drugs. There are specific sections of the brain that interperet impulses from all the different body parts and senses. This can be scientifically demonstrated in the physical world.

MAybe we wouldn't know about any of this without consciousness, which seems to exist in a non-physical way, but logically physical reality seems to be true. You can always discredit reality and be a solipsist, and nobody can dissprove you, but imperical evidence and reason suggest that an objective reality must exist, both within and outside of the mind.

It would have to be an extremely elaborate hoax for the physical and objective reality to be false. I've used this analogy before, but how is it I can lose a flashlight in the woods, and somebody else who has no knowledge of me or my flashlight could find it years later? That implies that the flashlight existed in some form independently of both consciousnesses.

If it was all an illusion there would have to be some kind of elaborate intelligent design behind it, that would also probobly require a physical reality.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3044921 - 08/24/04 05:47 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

The physical world is a brief trap for consciousness.

Help me, I'm in this nut shell. How did I get in to this nut shell. Look at me I'm in a nut shell.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3045001 - 08/24/04 06:08 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I would agree that the natural state of consciousness is in a formless and non-physical existence, but I still don't think that means the world we experience through our senses isn't there.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3045448 - 08/24/04 07:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

The physical world is but a dream. It's there, it's 'a' reality - a physical reality, to be experiences. These experiences make up a lesson before one returns to their metaphysical home at death.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Is the physical world independent of consciousness? [Re: Zahid]
    #3046407 - 08/24/04 11:50 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

"The physical world is a brief trap for consciousness"

To belittle what you have now is a huge mistake. It is the attitude of an immortal. Your time is precious and limited..it is all you have now.


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