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i don't think aliens exist
    #3036423 -

my opinion has changed i dont believ aliens exist  :mad2:

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3036427 -

Are you saying no other lifeforms exist anywhere in the Universe? Or just that they aren't visiting the Earth?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3036428 -

why?


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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: trendal]
    #3036434 -

trendal said:
Are you saying no other lifeforms exist anywhere in the Universe? Or just that they aren't visiting the Earth?


well i dont think anyone has ever visited the earth in "spaceships"

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3036437 -

why?~ I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise, but I'm curious as to how you reached this all-encompassing conclusion.


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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3036472 -

I don't think we've really been visited yet either. My intuition is that actual interstellar space travel must be perfectly controlled and it must be illegal just cause of how much an accidental contact would screw with developing civilizations (like Earth). Whatever Alien civilizations have survived technological adolescence and advanced to the point where they're able to fly to distant stars and visit foreign planets...they'd by definition have to have developed compassion, not still be conducting experiments on lab rats, and a respect for higher authority.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3036479 -

Why do you think they'd have to have developed compassion? Really awesome spaceships/other forms of transport =/= compassion

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: vampirism]
    #3036496 -

It's also quite possible that a very strict or even fascist style society could progress itself to the point of interstellar travel...perhaps even much QUICKER than a peaceful society could. Using the human example (the only one we have...) you can see how conflict drives technology forward at an incredibly rapid rate.

However if that were the case, I think we would all know about the visiting species quite fast: as they would immediately begin their conquest of Earth :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: trendal]
    #3036526 -

trendal said:
It's also quite possible that a very strict or even fascist style society could progress itself to the point of interstellar travel...perhaps even much QUICKER than a peaceful society could. Using the human example (the only one we have...) you can see how conflict drives technology forward at an incredibly rapid rate.


I understand but I don't think you're looking at the develop of planetary civilization from a long enough timescale. It's true war has driven much of humanities technological innovation but look how much it's hurt us and we're definitely not out of the woods yet. Remember the most dangerous weapons of mass destruction are sitting in everyone's garage.
A fascist society needs conflict in order to continue. Ok, the Germans weren't fighting each other but they were fighting everyone else. A society that hasn't gotten past conflict would eventually use its own technology to destroy itself.
A strict society is sort of more nebulous to argue against but creativity is often at odds with control and government direction. I think whatever is involved with close-to-light-speed-travel is going to require some highly unorthodox experiments and ideas.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3036572 -

According to you, for aliens to exist, they would have had to visit earth with spaceships?? there isn't very much logic in this.
So i ask, what has led you to change your beliefs?


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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: exclusive58]
    #3036596 -

I think when it comes to the subject of higher lifeforms visiting us, is that it defys so much logic and is so complex that none of us lower lifeforms would ever want to guess that they have seen us. Even after a "close encounter" we seem to just not be able to fully comprehend whats happened and just block it out or deny it.

Others talk and talk and get laughed at.

Once you say they exist, or they dont exist, you leave yourself vunerable to contradiction and confusion You dont leave yourself open to just SEEING what we know and dont know. Theres alot that doesnt make sense, and alot that is just too real to ignore. But if you just keep your eyes to the skys and just try to see one yourself, maybe you can figure out what the reality is, thats if your lucky enough to see one of the scarier UFO's that have been reprted.

Edited by Northernsoul (08/22/04 02:59 PM)

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3036604 -

Yes, and you never know what might have been discovered and that has been kept secret for the sake of anyone else knowing about it, and end up having something just as bad as the A-bomb.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3036610 -

Say hello to "quantum explosives"....the next step in humanity's never ending struggle to destroy itself :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3036687 -

I think when it comes to the subject of higher lifeforms visiting us, is that it defys so much logic and is so complex

I think that with all the knowledge we have on the universe today (like we know there are billions of stars and billions of galaxies, and the universe has existed for billions of years), its rather illogical to say and affirm that other life forms do not exist.

Now i'm not saying that they do exist, and i'm obviously not saying that they don't, but i am trying to feel comfortable with the possibility that they could exist, because when you say that some people tend to block the idea, deny it, or laugh at it, all these reactions come from FEAR. Fear that we might not be alone, fear in regards to what they could do to us (based on movies), and other forms of fear.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3036702 -

that whole universe and we are it? heh, that's a lot of wasted "space"


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3036798 -

How many here believe that KingOfTheThing exists?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Swami]
    #3036906 -

i know he exists  :grin:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Shroomism]
    #3037238 -

i dont even know what brought me to the conclusion...a combination of listening to too much terrence mckenna and a lot of mushrooms maybe

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: trendal]
    #3037253 -

trendal said:
However if that were the case, I think we would all know about the visiting species quite fast: as they would immediately begin their conquest of Earth :smirk:


What makes you so sure they haven't?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3037780 -

I think the Universe is brimming with intelligent life....the odds are in favor of it. Have they been here? Hell no! The distances are too great and the speed of light is the top speed. In the center of the galaxy interstellar civilizations could have formed and established contact with their neighbors due to the close distances and the huge number of stars...out here on the rim, though, it is going to be lonely...

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3037824 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I think the Universe is brimming with intelligent life....the odds are in favor of it.


Don't be so sure. The only thing close to giving the odds of this are the Drake equation. and the value of one very important variable has yet to be determined.
Which is why I too do not believe that we have or ever will be visited by extra-terrestrials.


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I am the devil and I am just like you

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: nunciate]
    #3037920 -

I have previously listed before another half-dozen equations that should have been, but weren't in the Drake equation. (Hey - sounds like a new thread is in order!)

Remember though, that the Drake equation is about the possiblity of COMMUNICATING with other life; not just merely existing.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Swami]
    #3038034 -

Quote:
Swami said:
Remember though, that the Drake equation is about the possiblity of COMMUNICATING with other life; not just merely existing.


you are correct. I used that out of context, sorry. still, we have yet to even communicate with any.
let alone get a 'visit'.


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I am the devil and I am just like you

Edited by nunciate (08/22/04 10:32 PM)

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: nunciate]
    #3038070 -

Sorry for one more correction to you enunciate. YOU and many others have yet to communicate with them or get a visit. Unless 'we" just meant you and swami and not human kind as a whole.

Millions beleive they already have comunicated with them or have been visited in one form or another.

That topic is to broad to speak for the whole planet on it.

BTW, I like your sig!


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3038105 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
Millions beleive they already have comunicated with them or have been visited in one form or another.



I understand this. but those that believe they have can't *prove* they have. I like things that can be proven. and I am speaking of physical contact, i.e. they've been here.
but, 'in one form or another', that, i cannot argue with.


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I am the devil and I am just like you

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: nunciate]
    #3038140 -

There are 1,000s who claim to have physical proof. I havn't put any of it under a microscope myself because I am not in a position, regarding location from them and their "proof" nor do i have the scientific equipment to run tests on the stuff. Do you think our governments or media would sponcer this stuff?

Knowing there are 1,000s out there who claim to have it, I still think its bold to say no one has made physical contact. Totally appropriate to say, you don't beleive anyone has because you personally have not been able to examine the evidense some claim to have for your own self or that sources you find credible have not backed these people up.

I know I am splitting hairs, LOL, perhaps you are an authority on the subject and worked for project blue book and in area 51 and I'm not aware of that. Government employees who have worked in both have come forward to say they have seen proof. I would like to see some of it myself! :tongue:

This subject could go round robin for years here though. I will get off the carousel now.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3038146 -

Some of those that claimed implants (physical proof) have had X-rays and MRIs and nothing shows up. A few have had operations and nothing but human tissue has been found. Most convincing!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3038175 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
There are 1,000s who claim to have physical proof. I havn't put any of it under a microscope myself because I am not in a position, regarding location from them and their "proof" nor do i have the scientific equipment to run tests on the stuff. Do you think our governments or media would sponcer this stuff?


yes. I think NASA would make bank on this shit instead of flopping about like a fish out of water begging for money just to have something to do since the cold war ended.


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I am the devil and I am just like you

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: nunciate]
    #3038210 -

They have. The Discovery channel did a show on interstellar travel where NASA came straight out and said, "WE KNOW WE ARE BEING VISITED by intellegent life out there. It is now, no longer a question of if it's possible to us, but how?"


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3038218 -

NASA never made such a claim. Hallucination or fabrication?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Swami]
    #3038242 -

Swami said:
NASA never made such a claim.



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I am the devil and I am just like you

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Swami]
    #3038656 -

"NASA never made such a claim."

I'll second that. If we were going to be contacted by alien life the chances that they would be humanoid, and were clothes, and fly in a human friendly designed spacecraft(they all look like the spaceship in the 1950s movie "Forbiden Planet...coincidence...no)is very remote. Alien life is likely to be very far from what we consider normal. If they were going to contact us the most likely course would be the "take me to your leader scenario" not impregnating women with alien babies, and performing anal probes on unsuspecting passerbys.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3038748 -

you mean "i think aliens do not exist",right?to come to the conclusion of aliens existing,you had to think about them existing to make your claim.It's something you probably debate in your hear.I think you think aliens exist.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3038936 -

Why do you think the chances are so remote.

Life is quite uniformed all over our planet, more than that, it takes certain conditions to sustain life. So whats to say its not uniformed over the whole universe.


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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3038970 -

For those of you who think that they don't exist. Can you prove that they DON'T exist?

I think that the probability of ETs existing is far greater than the probability of ETs not existing.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Swami]
    #3038984 -

I will see if the discovery channel has a web site and offers videos of their shows. It may even have been NOVA, it was aired in the last year and I will search around. It ran side by side with a show on black holes where science now thinks they have enough evidense to prove that black holes exist at the center of every galaxy. Discovery or Nova, the show gave names and did not black out the NASA personel that were speaking on the subject.

I also need to correct my plural use of the word governments in the above. I also rememer seeing a show on the topic of UFO's where the Russian governemt, after the collapse, released "secret documents" about their miltaries encounters with them. The military guys were interviewed to retell the stories and in some of the cases they had video tape evidence. This show was interesting because in most of the cases the crafts were hovering around nuclear weapons silos meesin up launch capabilities.

Anyway, I don't care if you beleive me about this and by all means , challenge and question it all you want too. I am simply sharing with you what I saw NASA and Russian Military personal say on documentaries. If there are fabrications or hallucinations being made, they are by NASA and the Russian Military-not me!

I have never had a physical encounter with ET's. To be honest with you, I don't wish for one either. I think I would be scared shitless. That doesn't mean I am going to stick my head in the sand on this one, there is just too much out there on it to ignore it.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist *DELETED* [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3039218 -

Post deleted by dorkus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: dorkus]
    #3039540 -

> I think that the probability of ETs existing is far greater than the probability of ETs not existing.

I would agree. Time and space are too large for us (life) to be a statistical error. Time and space being so mind boggling large make it highly unlikely that we will ever encounter any other life forms... This, of course, is assuming that alien life is like what we known and understand...


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Seuss]
    #3039702 -

While life is likely elsewhere, without understanding the underlying mechanism, it is impossible to extrapolate from a sample size of one.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Ego Death]
    #3041527 -

Once you leave our ecosystem all bets are off. An alien ecosystem would have evolved alng different lines. Evolution on an alien world could lead to forms that we would not even recognize as life the way we understand it. Get creative, folks. Consider silicon based life forms, who breathe methane. How about intelligent beings that inhabit gas giants that are in the form of hydrogen balloons, or plasma based life forms that have evolved in the coronasphere of a distant star. The sky is the limit. Earth is a closed system. There is no reason to think it will repeat itself elsewhere.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3043137 -

> While life is likely elsewhere, without understanding the underlying mechanism, it is impossible to extrapolate from a sample size of one.

It is not at all impossible to extrapolate from a sample size of one... however, the confidence of said extrapolation will obviously be very small.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Seuss]
    #3044437 -

Extrapolation is NOT the same as guessing.

Here is a sample size of one example:

The next number in the sequence after 54 is: ? (Hint: everyone will get this wrong because of insufficient information from a single sample. Basically, it could be ANY number at all!)


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Swami]
    #3044594 -

Suess and swami,

The universe isn't just one linear sequence of events. It's a multitude of many overlapping and inter woven moving in all directions.

For example; where is it that friday can come before thursday?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Seuss]
    #3044716 -

> Extrapolation is NOT the same as guessing.

Correct.  I have had more statistics, operations research, mathmatical methods, and related classes than any sane person should be subjected to endure.  I am looking at the multitude of different life forms we have in our little corner of space as a basis for extrapolation.  We have found life in 'alien environments' here on earth, such as the bottom of the ocean, or in rocks under tens of thousands of pounds of pressure, even in the vacuum of space eating away at our satalites.  We have also found organic (carbon based) molecules in space dust, comets, etc.

Back to extrapolation, you are correct, two points are needed at a minimum to have a larger than zero confidence interval (i.e. not a guess).  But in the case of other life in the universe, just because we cannot observe (due to distance, or timing) a sample doesn't mean that it does not exist.

We think that there are aproximately 10^21 (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) stars in the universe.  If only 1 in 1,000-billion star systems (not planets, stars) were to have life, that would mean around 10 billion star systems have life.  We are talking huge number here... similiar to the national debt.  Now factor in the age of the universe and the numbers truely explode.  Of course, there is no way to know for certain what the ratio of life to stars in the universe is... could be 1 to 10^21, which would make us one-of-a-kind.

> where is it that friday can come before thursday

On the calendar hanging on the wall?

>  [the universe is] a multitude of many overlapping and inter woven moving in all directions.

Glad you cleared that up... I will sleep better at night knowing that all the astronomers in the world are wrong... that the universe isn't expanding, but rather morphing into various overlapping, interwoven shapes.  Have you published your findings?  You should speak with Nancy Lieder, she can probably help you out.

You migh want to check out the site www.badastronomy.com when you get a chance... :wink:


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Seuss]
    #3044796 -

Notice that I added "without understanding the underly mechanism".

If the conditions for life were "only" a certain temperature and pressure range and a specific chemical soup mixture, then I would agree that similar conditions are very likely to occur somewhere else. But much more data is needed about the origin of life on Earth, never mind other systems, BEFORE a logical case can be made for extra-terrestrial life.

Is it logical to assume there MUST be another Swami or Seuss floating around in the universe because of its vastness? No, because we are unique (sort of...). Life may also be a unique phenomenon.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Seuss]
    #3044797 -

The dictionary!

And I do beleive the universe contracts and expands with each expansive cycle broadening the one before.

Typically, it's not me following science but science following me.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Swami]
    #3044837 -

> The dictionary!

Darn, now I gotta turn my calendar back right-side-up.  *sigh*  :wink:

> Is it logical to assume there MUST be another Swami or Seuss floating around in the universe because of its vastness?

Hmm... I will have to think on this one; not something I have ever really considered.  I suppose one would have to calculate the possible premutations availble within our genetics, the likelyhood of a planet somewhere having a ecosystem the same as ours, etc.  We would have to make assumptions for a lot of variables, which renders the exersise fairly pointless, but we should be able to come up with an idea of the probability of the two of us existing somewhere else.  I would suspect such a number/probability would be extremly small.  :grin:

Even small probabilities can yield measurable results when enough events are considered, such as in the case of alpha decay.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3049224 -

Whats so wrong with just saying: "I dont know" with some questions??!! This is something that nobody  can say either does or doesnt exist. Because once you say one thing, theres something that can always contradict it. Leaving it unanswered. Simple as that!!!  :cool:


--------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------

When it comes
I'll know, I know
Just take my clothes and leave
And I'll be gone



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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Swami]
    #3049571 -

"s it logical to assume there MUST be another Swami or Seuss floating around in the universe because of its vastness? No, because we are unique (sort of...). Life may also be a unique phenomenon."

You have just made a good case for the existance of the Christian God.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Seuss]
    #3050132 -

I think alien life exists, but whether or not they have visited us, I have no idea. As far as abductions go, they have been reproduced by using electricity to stimulate the brain, and have also been reported during sleep-paralysis. I have seen beings that appear very similar to the aliens people report seeing during many of my trips, so I guess they could've hallucinated them, but on the other hand if people started tripping out I would think that they would assume they were going nuts or dying, not seeing UFO's and aliens. Tripping is way more then then just seeing one or two random things, and I figure that the changes in brain chemistry during such an episode would create a full-blown trip, and just a random space ship or alien.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3064144 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
I will see if the discovery channel has a web site and offers videos of their shows. It may even have been NOVA, it was aired in the last year and I will search around. It ran side by side with a show on black holes where science now thinks they have enough evidense to prove that black holes exist at the center of every galaxy. Discovery or Nova, the show gave names and did not black out the NASA personel that were speaking on the subject.


any word on this?


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I am the devil and I am just like you

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3064231 -

i belive aliens exist somewhere in the universe, but i dont belive they have ever visited here. if they had mastered intergalactic space travel, and traveled hundreds of light years to get here, why would they just fly around making crop circles, scaring people, and giving out anal probes? It seems like a waste of time to travel so far for such pointless reasons.

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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: mark330ci]
    #3065273 -

Crop circles are 99 percent imo man made.

I will tell you why they are visiting here, they want to keep an eye on us. Why? Because soon we will be able to keep an eye on them!

Our government/military openly admits to being 1-30 years ahead of the commercial sector, they are possibly and we as a whole (human race) are getting closer and closer to intersteller travel ourselves.

When this happens the higher life forms out there will want to set down some guidelines on what we can and can't do whilst transcending the universe!


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Re: i don't think aliens exist [Re: Ego Death]
    #3068132 -

> Crop circles are 99 percent imo man made.

So the crops get tired and take a nap the other 1% of the time?


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Just another spore in the wind.

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