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Anonymous
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 Re: The Aliens Are Here  [Re: ]
#759924 - 07/19/02 06:31 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good post. Now I have a clearer grasp of what you are trying to say.
I would love to talk about each point with you but unfortunately I do not have the time for that. 
I do wish to make a couple of points though.
Today science and it's empirical method, ie methodological naturalism, reigns supreme in the minds of many. That is very unfortunate because philosophy rules over science and most people, lay persons and scientists alike, do not realize this. Only philosophy can define what science is because that is it's job and by that right it has a superior place in the hierarchy of knowledge.
One cannot say science is never wrong because it is wrong all the time. Many theories are discarded for new and improved ones. Science in its infancy had a certain hubris that it has never been able to completely shed. How many times has science been stood on its head because some new information came in? Newton? Einstein? Planck? Darwin? Behe?
Now, we are asked by science to unconditionally accept whatever 'truth' it throws at us while recognizing that it may be completely wrong. Are you with me?
That is not to say that science has no merit because it does. Technological advances should not be discounted but they should be ranked in the order of real importance when one is experiencing the world in which we live.
We cannot have that meaning through science. We all strive for meaning in our lives in many ways. We need love, companionship, and other things that science simply cannot give.
According to hard cold science love is simply electro-chemical impulses just as everything is. As if by reductionism we can strut about boasting what we know when we know very little that won't be interpreted differently by the next generation of scientists.
However, with all that said I still have more faith in reason and data than I do the intuition that you start with when you began an investigation. Why? Because reason has never let me down. It has a better track record, so to speak.
I think, and this is subject to my own revision as facts come in, that intuition may well be unconscious cues that are not evident overtly. Our senses process many things without our being consciously aware of them. Why does intuition fail at times? Because there are many different outcomes available in the equation. Intuition tells us (instinctively) which one is most probable.
One last thing. If a person is truly skeptical shouldn't they be skeptical about the emipircal method as well?
Who here can tell me where naturalism began and why?
I hope you enjoyed my little contribution.
Cheers,
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Anonymous
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: Adamist]
#759931 - 07/19/02 06:34 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well put! I couldn't agree with you more. 
See my answer to Shroomism in the alien thread for more.
Cheers,
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Anonymous
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: llib]
#759954 - 07/19/02 06:44 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I consider quantum mechanics a load of hooey.
See this link for another interpretation of the facts.
Good post!
What is the null set for evolution?
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Anonymous
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: ]
#760007 - 07/19/02 07:02 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Great post Mr Mushrooms.. 
I especially like this line..
One cannot say science is never wrong because it is wrong all the time. Many theories are discarded for new and improved ones. Science in its infancy had a certain hubris that it has never been able to completely shed. How many times has science been stood on its head because some new information came in? Newton? Einstein? Planck? Darwin? Behe?
Science and logic do indeed have their place in deducing the truth, but they are not absolute. We must find the middle ground between spiritual/creative/right brained believer, and scientific/logical/left brained thinker. Together, both sides will find the truth together. In opposition however, there will only be endless debate and controversy. When scientist and philospher unite as one, with respect of each individual's beliefs and thought patterns, that is where true progress will be made. We must work together.
Mr Mushrooms, I believe you are the type of scientific thinker that is willing to work with the spiritualists while maintaining a common respect of each individual's ideas and beliefs. Sclorch, you should be taking notes.
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Anonymous
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: ]
#760074 - 07/19/02 07:28 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thank you very much. I am flattered.
I only want the truth and don't allow foolishness to get in my way of finding it, be it scientific foolishness or spiritual foolishness. For there is foolishness on both sides.
It is obvious that man has a spiritual side. But what does that mean? I do not allow science to dictate that answer to me any more than I allow religion to dictate my science.
I have a great little paragraph that Einstein wrote that sums it up. I'll post it tomorrow.
Cheers,
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 Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: Swami]
#760151 - 07/19/02 07:52 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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"You don't know diddle about my mind."
I know enough of it to know that you're following me around the shroomery boards making pathetic posts in order to "get your own back" for me blowing all your arguments apart.
Check out the san pedro thread on the other drugs forum for swami's sense of humour bypass...
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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 Adamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
 
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: ]
#760441 - 07/19/02 09:27 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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As an aside I have met and talked to aliens, at least that's what I thought at the time. My interpretation of the event(s) is different now.
I would be very interested in hearing about your experiences...
If you don't wish to post them a PM would be most helpful.
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 { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } }
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: ]
#760540 - 07/19/02 09:59 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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It is obvious that man has a spiritual side.
It is not at all obvious, else everyone would believe that. Perhaps you may state your case why you find this to be self-evident.
As to your previous comments on science and flaws, please note that there is nothing wrong with the scientific method, but with the human tendency to glom on to popular ideas, even when contradicted by new evidence.
As an aside, I found it very interesting that when I questioned some basic assumptions on evolution on another board (not on the shroomery) I was instantly branded a creationist, though I hold no views at all corresponding to that paradigm.
In fact, I stated no view at all, I merely asked questions on some pieces that don't quite fit the Darwinian model.
Assumptions are rampant everywhere and are a roadblock to clear thinking.
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The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (07/19/02 10:08 PM)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: ]
#760581 - 07/19/02 10:22 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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We must find the middle ground between spiritual/creative/right brained believer, and scientific/logical/left brained thinker.
This sounds good on paper, however, truth is not a diplomatic compromise. A particular crop circle was either created by a human or it wasn't - there is no middle ground. The earth is not both flat and spherical. Trying to get to the core of something is not about pleasing all sides; it is about tossing aside the chaffe to see what remains.
Creativity is about expression; logic and rationality is about understanding the mechanics of something. These are two different tools for vastly different purposes.
Frequently the term intuition is used to mean something metaphysical, when it may just be a lifetime of knowledge and experience processed at a subconscious level, rather than a mystic message from the ether.
For example: I was playing racquetball the other day and my opponent was amazed at how I was able to "intuit" his shots and be there to retrieve them. That probably had more to do with 30 years of being on the court and able to read the nuances of his body positioning, balance and previous shot selection, than any mysterious knowledge coming to me. Because this level of processing goes on a deep level (doing all of these calculations at a conscious level would take far too long) we may tend to call this intuition.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: Zulu_Shaman]
#760618 - 07/19/02 10:36 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here is the problem with aliens as I see it.
1. Only a small percentage of people experience them and there is no sure-fire method for contact.
2. Those that do experience them do not all agree on physical description or motivation. This means that some or ALL of these contactees are in error.
3. Information transmitted cannot be verified nor collaborated. (yes, they are collborated AFTER the fact, but that is human nature.) For example, if I gave two previous contactees a stong dose of mushrooms and put them in separate rooms, I guarantee their reports would not match up.
4. We know that mentally ill people have visions and hear voices that are not "real" so what is different about these experiences to give them more substance?
5. We know that on mushrooms, people see and experience things that are NOT happenening (your friend doesn't really grow a third eye just because that is what you see). So again, what differentiates the alien experience?
6. Those who point to common experiences of aliens around the world are unaware of the power of exposure to story and myth through enculturation.
7. If they were "real" some experiment could be devised to demonstrate this fact, but to date no one has come up with anything.
As these experiences are completely personal and self-contained, I see NO difference between them and pure imagination.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Adamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: Swami]
#760655 - 07/19/02 11:07 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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There are dimensions beyond the physical.
That's the only energy I'm going to waste to try and explain myself, Swami.
Obviously no one here is going to change your beliefs, and you aren't going to change mine. So why waste time and energy on this same old song and dance? Couldn't you be more productive doing some "experiments" or something? 
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{ { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } }
Edited by Adamist (07/19/02 11:08 PM)
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Posts: 9,134
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: Swami]
#760691 - 07/20/02 12:00 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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It is not at all obvious, else everyone would believe that
What are you talking about? How many billions of people around the world believe that man has a spiritual side? That man has a spiritual side is obvious to anyone with half a brain. Does every single person on earth have to "believe" it before it becomes obvious?
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: Swami]
#760696 - 07/20/02 12:04 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Those who point to common experiences of aliens around the world are unaware of the power of exposure to story and myth through enculturation"
On the contrary, i was an ardent non-believer in any such thing. Then i took mushrooms.
7. If they were "real" some experiment could be devised to demonstrate this fact, but to date no one has come up with anything.
Experiment? Do you really believe that man has worked out the meaning of everything in the universe in 400 years of the scientific method? That if he can't recreate it in a lab then it cannot exist?
"As these experiences are completely personal and self-contained, I see NO difference between them and pure imagination."
I have never imagined contacts with entities. I encounter them regularly when I take mushrooms. This is the crucial flaw in the "it's your imagination, you've watched communion" angle. Incidentally, I've never seen communion...
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Adamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: Xlea321]
#760707 - 07/20/02 12:21 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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On the contrary, i was an ardent non-believer in any such thing. Then i took mushrooms.
Same here... While I did think that other life must exist somewhere, I doubted that it would ever come to Earth and communicate with humans. I didn't think humans were important enough to communicate with by extraterrestrials advanced enough to travel through space.
I underestimated us. Mushrooms showed me the divine potential in each and every human being. Although we have been in what seems like a dark age for who knows how long, things are starting to look up. Maybe it takes the young to realize this, or maybe it's just the disillusioned nature of youthful idealism , but I do believe we are removing the veil that has been placed over our eyes since our 'fall' in consciousness. This new existence will not be without its difficulties, but we will be much less confused as I believe the truth about who we are, where we come from, and what we're doing here is soon to be revealed.
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{ { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } }
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: Xlea321]
#760711 - 07/20/02 12:25 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have never imagined contacts with entities. I encounter them regularly when I take mushrooms.
Before I first tripped, I never imagined trees melting, yet I fail to believe that means that trees really do melt. Once again (actually the dozenth time!) what differentiates alien contact (believed to be real) with other mushroom side-effects (that we can all agree are not real)?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: Xlea321]
#760716 - 07/20/02 12:36 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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It amazes me how you can violate three rules of logical argument in such short order:
many billions of people around the world believe that man has a spiritual side?
1. The fallacy of large numbers.
Billions of people believe that billions of others view of spirituality is completely wrong, so some or all of those billions are mistaken.
That man has a spiritual side is obvious
2. The fallacy of self-evident or a priori knowledge.
This statement says NOTHING to advance your position. Restating your position more vehemently is not part a of rational discussion. Is that really the best that you can come up with to point to man's supposedly spiritual nature?
anyone with half a brain
3. The fallacy of the ad-hominem.
Anyone who doesn't agree with you must be a retard. How quaint.
Thanks once again for a zero content post.
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The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (07/20/02 12:45 AM)
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Eightball
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: Swami]
#760718 - 07/20/02 12:40 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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i've experienced 'talking' to other consciouses while on mushrooms once and to this day i'm not 100% sure where the other dialoge came from. sure it could just be shrooms doing their thing and me playing along very well but the fluidity and content of conversations was not (that i'm aware of) my knowledge being regurgitated to me. i listened to a female talk for a while and then i was aware that i was able to pick up more conversations so i was hearing in excess of 10 beings talking at once. i then chose one to listen to and it became the only one i could hear. again this being seemed to be not me and it was rattling off on some maybe philosophical or religous discussion. i don't really remember exactly what was said during these discussions but it definitely stuck out as something well out of the ordinary (even for a mushroom trip) again, i was under the influence of shrooms so this really doesn't bring any credibility towards the existence of anything that could possibly be derived from this experience.
i think its definitely possible that it was ALL in my head but some part of me was left with the impression it wasn't
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: Xlea321]
#760772 - 07/20/02 02:17 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Do you really believe that man has worked out the meaning of everything in the universe in 400 years of the scientific method? That if he can't recreate it in a lab then it cannot exist?
That is quite an extrapolation there, none of which I said.
My point is that for people to claim an experience as not being purely subjective, i.e. having some reality outside of their own mind; then there should be some way to show that it is not merely an internal state, such as through objective verification. Otherwise there is NO WAY to distinguish these types of experiences from any other dream, fantasy, or hallucination.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Mystical_Craven
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Re: The Aliens Are Here [Re: Eightball]
#760837 - 07/20/02 03:00 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I know there isn't a whole hell of a lot that I can be sure about when it comes to stuff like this, but one thing I am sure about is that something is definately happening all around us, and it's slowly escilating. At times it seems like little more then a combination of cultural conditioning and self fullfiling prophecies, but more often then nought it seems to be so much more. I may not be able to fully classify what exactly this 'something' is, but I do know that I'm not the only one that senses it. I personally became aware of this global change some time back, but I ignored my instincts for the longest time due to my analytical tendencies. I always felt that if it didn't have a seemingly sound philasophical explination then it couldn't possibly hold any weight in the real world. Over time though I've grown much more acceptent of my 'spiritual' side (or metaphysical if you prefer) and have become aware of a great many energies previously unknown. For a while there I was open to any suggestion/theory/belief/etc and I did little more with my life then absorb information. Lately though I've been sorting through everything I've learned within the past few years and have been deciding for myself what I choose to believe in and what I choose to pass on as mere folklore. ..... I know that in itself isn't much of a contribution to the thread, but I hesitate to share knowledge that I am still currently unsure about. One thing I can say though is that there is most certainly a connection between psychedelics in general and this inevitable chain of events wich has already been set in motion. It's my assumption that mushrooms in particular hold a key role in the realization and acceptance of this up-comming change, and that they serve as a sort of 'guide' or teaching aid of some sort. I am still not quite sure how exactly that works though, but my theory so far is that it's a combination of temporarily altering an individual's innate 'frequency' (as so many others tend to say) thereby making us more susseptible to the workings of the underlying world beneath the material realm...and also by putting our analytical minds to rest for a short time, thereby making us more willing to accept new ideas simply by giving us a logical explination of the incomprehesable (e.g. we can always pass it off as a mere halucination induced by the psychoactive compound of the shrooms if we choose not to accept the things we learn while exposed to the intricate aspects of life which are normally shrouded by disbelief/ignorance/whatever)
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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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It's my assumption that mushrooms in particular hold a key role in the realization and acceptance of this up-comming change,
If the mushrooms could portend change and future events, then why have almost all of the mushroom cultures been wiped out?
Also saying that significant changes are coming could be said about any time in human history.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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