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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365461 -

the murder rate is influenced by many factors. the deterrent effect of potential punishment for murder is only one. the fact that there are places with low murder rates and no death penalty does nothing but confirm that it is possible to have a low murder rate without using the death penalty. what it does not confirm is the idea that the death penalty has no deterrent value, or that citizens should be prevented from making use of that deterrent value if they vote to do so.

there are countries in the world where the murder rate is very high and there is no death penalty. think colombia and south africa.

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365467 -

It makes it pre-human.

until what point in a pregnancy do you think abortion is ok?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365477 -

There are basically two kinds of murder: crimes of passion(i.e. the OJ case) and pre-meditated. But you see, the thing about pre-meditated murder is that the perpetrator doesn't plan on getting caught, so he/she isn't even weighing in on the legal repercussions.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365488 -

few people ever plan on getting caught, but they still weigh the legal repurcussion they would face if they did. if growing mushrooms was punishable by life in prison, i would stop doing it.

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365490 -

mushmaster said:
It makes it pre-human.

until what point in a pregnancy do you think abortion is ok?


I believe luvdemshrooms covered this before, and it's one of a handful of things on which I agree:

1st trimester: Any reason
2nd trimester: Rape, incest, or deformities
3rd trimester: Only to save the mother's life


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365511 -

2nd trimester: Rape, incest, or deformities

why should the fact that it was concieved by rape be a reason to kill a fetus which would otherwise be illegal to kill?

if the fetus has a right to life at that point, then it shouldn't matter how it was conceived. if it doesn't, then the criteria should be the same as the first trimester.

what constitutes a deformity?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365527 -

Because the mother cannot be held responsible for its conception, and therefore should not be required to continue carrying it.

And I will not venture to define "deformity." I will leave that to the medical professionals.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2365540 -

Quote:
I'm sure that in libby-la-la-land (where overthrowing a tyrannical despot is a bad thing)


if that were so..then we would all vote for bush...

nor do we believe that its ever necessary to drive nail through a foetuse's skull in order to save its mothers life...although that might not be such a bad idea..in cases where the foetus has been determined to be a genetic neocon...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365561 -

Because the mother cannot be held responsible for its conception

that doesn't matter very much from the fetus' end of things. what matters is the stage of development at what point the fetus has a right to life. a three year old has a right to life. if a woman has a three-year old child which was concieved by rape, it doesn't make it ok for her to throw the kid in the street.

And I will not venture to define "deformity." I will leave that to the medical professionals.

give me an idea. how about missing an arm? blindness? severe mental retardation which would probably result in death in the first months of life?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365573 -

Quote:
that doesn't matter very much from the fetus' end of things. what matters is the stage of development at what point the fetus has a right to life. a three year old has a right to life. if a woman has a three-year old child which was concieved by rape, it doesn't make it ok for her to throw the kid in the street.


A three-year-old can and does survive outside of the womb. Therefore it is not a part of the mother's body, and has a right to its own life.

Quote:
give me an idea. how about missing an arm? blindness? severe mental retardation which would probably result in death in the first months of life?


Possibly something along those lines, yes.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365598 -

A three-year-old can and does survive outside of the womb. Therefore it is not a part of the mother's body, and has a right to its own life.

a fetus, after a certain point, really isn't a part of the mother's body either. it's got it's own blood type, it moves around on cues from it's own functioning brain, etc.

does a fetus not have a right to life until it can survive outside its mother's body?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365614 -

Quote:
does a fetus not have a right to life until it can survive outside its mother's body?


yes


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365622 -

shouldn't abortion then be allowable, with no restrictions, at any point before a fetus can survive outside its mother's body?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365633 -

Good point. Yes.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365644 -

must it be able to survive totally on its own outside the mother, or can it make use of modern medical technology like is used with premature babies?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365653 -

The medical technology.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365693 -

i think that the rights of the fetus depend more on its stage of development than whether or not it can survive outside the womb. in 100 years, perhaps we will be able to grow a baby from a zygote completely outside of a mother. if that happens, that doesn't mean that abortion during the first 2 weeks of pregnancy should then be banned, does it? that doesn't mean that a 2 week old mass of cells would have rights which it doesn't have now, right?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365760 -

I suppose you're right, but at least we can agree that abortions should be allowed during the first trimester.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365868 -

I dont really think talking a human life is nessisaraly a bad thing, it depends of the curcumstance.

Mushmaster: does the ability to feel pain warrant the right to live? Is it the only thing that warrents that right?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: domite]
    #2366290 -

Abortion

My understanding is that approximately 5% of all abortions are performed due to an occurrence of an emergency related to the mother's health, or because of rape or incest. 95% of the time, abortions are performed because birth control failed, or wasn't used at all.

In other words, abortion is mainly used as a measure of birth control. In further words, life is cheap.

Also, whether a fetus experiences pain depends on from whom you acquire your information. According to Planned Parenthood:

>>We know for sure that the embryo or fetus cannot perceive pain in the nearly 99 percent of all abortions that occur before the 20th week of pregnancy. It is even possible that a fetus is unable to perceive pain at any time during pregnancy. If, however, the ability to feel pain does develop before birth and consciousness, it is likely to happen only after the 28th week of pregnancy, when abortion is performed only for urgent medical reasons. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/ABORTION/chooseabort3.html

According to a website that appeared to be against abortions:

>>Summary of a presentation given by Dr. Paul Ranalli on "Pain, Fetal Development, and Partial-birth abortion" on June 27, 1997. (I personally attended this presentation). Related links are included below.

>>The fetus can feel pain at 20 weeks. This is probably a conservatively late estimate, but it is scientifically solid. Elements of the pain-conveying system (spino-thalamic system) begin to be assembled at 7 weeks; enough development has occurred by 12-14 weeks that some pain perception is likely, and continues to build through the second trimester. By 20 weeks, the spino- thalamic system is fully established and connected.

>>There are three different indicators providing evidence that the fetus feels pain.

1. Anatomical
- pain receptors spread over the body in stages: 8-16 weeks
- pain impulse connections in the spinal cord link up and reach the thalamus (the brain's reception center): 7-20 weeks (summarized by Anand, K.J.S., Atlanta)

2. Physiological/Hormonal
- fetuses withdraw from painful stimulation
- two types of stress hormones, normally released by adults subjected to pain, are released by adults subjected to pain, are releases in massive amounts by the fetus subjected to a needle puncture to draw a blood sample:

(a) from 19 weeks onward (N. Fisk; London, England)
(b) from 16 weeks onward (J. Partch; Kiel, Germany)

3. Behavioral
- withdraw from pain
- change in vital signs

>>A 20-30 week old fetus actually will feel more pain than an adult. The period between 20-30 weeks is a uniquely vulnerable time, since the pain system is fully established, yet the higher level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop. http://www.gargaro.com/fetalpain.html

Personally, I am against any type of abortion except where there is a danger to the mother's life, or in cases of rape or incest.

Death Penalty

It is more expensive to to sentence someone to death because of the cost to society for the trial and the appeals process.

From an article:

>>Radelet said the cost of executing a prisoner in Florida averages about $3.2 million, mostly in trial costs. Keeping that same person in prison for life costs only about $600,000, and the millions of dollars spent on executing prisoners could be put to much better use, he said. http://www.napa.ufl.edu/oldnews/death1.htm

Capital punishment also does not deter others from committing the same types of crimes. In the same article:

>>"Deterrence means that we execute people to send a message to others," Radelet said. "After a while, increases in the severity of punishment have decreasing incremental deterrent effect. So if you haven't deterred somebody by life, you re not going to deter them by death.

I prefer life in prison because I think that's a better punishment than killing someone. I'd rather watch the person suffer life behind bars as a result of taking the life of another.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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