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Death Penalty/Abortion
    #339818 -

It has been pointed out three thousand times that those who are pro-choice are usually opposed to capital punishment, and those who are pro-life are usually pro-capital punishment. This seeming contradiction of values is not (at least from the former's standpoint).
Because I'm crunched for time, I'll just open the dialogue up by giving a brief overveiw of why the former is not a contradiction of beliefs (can't defend the latter position, as I don't hold either belief)

-The abortion issue, to the pro-choice-er, is about individual rights vs. federal power. It has little do with wishing to see unborn fetus terminated.

-Being against the death penalty is recognizing that there are better means of reaching the end that the criminal justice system is supposed to give us (punishment, rehabilitation, protecting society). It also, to some, is about the sanctity of human life. To those who hold the latter reason and are still pro-choice, there is a difference between a living entity in society, and the potential to be a living entity in society.

Once again, just wishing to open the discussion...

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #339880 -

I see it more as an issue about the definition of what is a human being (is a fetus a human) or whether or not that life inside the mother is a separate life yet.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #340118 -

A fetus is most certainly human (it's not non-human) what the pro-choice poeple like to try to center the abortion arguament around is the definition of 'personhood' rather than 'life'. jA fetus is a life and a fetus is human this is medical fact.

And for the record I'm aginst both.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #340150 -

For me personally, its about innocence. The fetus has done no harm to anyone, its not yet even had a chance. The criminal has, and will most likely, do it again.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Solo]
    #340293 -

> A fetus is most certainly human (it's not non-human)

It's an embryo.

> what the pro-choice poeple like to try to center the abortion arguament around is the definition of 'personhood' rather than 'life'.

Umm, nobody is denying that a fetus is alive, but human beings don't usually object to killing things. We kill to eat. We kill pests. The issue comes down to the definition of what is a human being? Is an embryo a human being or not?

> jA fetus is a life

Yes, but so is an amoeba.

> a fetus is human this is medical fact.

No, it's not. Some will say it is a fact that a fetus is a human being, others would dispute this. That's why the issue remains controversial. It depends on what you believe. It seems that you believe a fetus is a human being. Others might consider a fetus a complex multicellular organism (and thus, sub-human).

And saying it is a fact is silly. Science has problems defining what "Life" is, and don't tell me this is just nonsense semantics, because that's what all issues come down to. Don't just say to me "life is life" and "a person is a person". If you're going to define what life or a human being is, please at least state some criteria instead of giving me a sentence of three words that is entirely circular. (I'm not venting this specifically at you, but this is what people have responded with before on the abortion issue).




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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
    #340296 -

> The criminal has, and will most likely, do it again.

How can you assume that simply because a person has done one criminal act that they will do it again?

Example: Some people try marijuana (crime: possesion of marijuana) once.

Some people drink and drive once.

Some people get into a fist fight (assault) once.

etc. etc. etc.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #340484 -

I look at it this way; What is it that makes us human and a chimpanzee not human? The difference is in the degree of development of our cerebral cortex. That is what sets us apart from all other animals. We know that the cerebral cortex of a "human" fetus doesn't wire up until the 3rd trimester; this is when it becomes "human."

As far as abortion/capital punishment/murder go, I have a problem with killing sentient beings.

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #340587 -

So you define a human being based entirely on one aspect of development?

Also, some might consider a fetus not to be a separate organism. Some might view an abortion akin to cutting off a malignant limb.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #340721 -

****We know that the cerebral cortex of a "human" fetus doesn't wire up until the 3rd trimester****

This isn't always true. A friend of mine gave birth to a 6 month baby girl who was totally healthy, but weighed 2lbs 8 ounces. If you killed..er..aborted her at 5 months would that be considered murder? Or is this little person nothing in your eyes?


Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #340776 -

What I can't understand is how it seems as though the pro-life camp is convinced than any pro-choicer is a salavating baby murderer; that all pro-choicers enjoy ripping fetuses from the womb.
Pro-choice is just that; having the option. So what's the difference in having a choice in abortion and a jury having a choice in sentencing a murderer? It's this: some people DO NOT consider a fetus a human or even a seperate life. Everyone can agree that a 33 year old is both human and alive. Murder is wrong. Capital punishment is murder. The life (I use the word loosely) of a fetus is open to the interpretation of the individual. They should have that choice.

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #340806 -

I'm just trying to provide a defining characteristic of what it is to be "human." A five-month old fetus can be viable and not yet have it's cerebral cortex wired up. Much of the debate on this subject flies around the definition of what "human" is. I'm providing a biological/anatomical definition based on factual differences/similarities between Homo sapiens and other primates. This might be too clinical for some people's tastes, but that's my opinion of how "human" should be defined.

As PeachMan said pro-choice is having the option. If there is going to be a cut-off date as to when a woman can still choose to have an abortion, I believe morally that it should be well before the embryo/fetus reaches this window of development.

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #340897 -

Zetek... I agree with you on the cut off date. And your example of the cerebral cortex is a viable reason for the belief that fetuses are not human. Can you give a link to this info? I would like to see more.

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #340920 -

>> a fetus is human this is medical fact.

<No, it's not. Some will say it is a fact that a fetus is a human <being, others would dispute this. That's why the issue <remains controversial. It depends on what you believe. It <seems that you believe a fetus is a human being. Others <might consider a fetus a complex multicellular organism (and <thus, sub-human).

Professionals making money arguing with each other will continue to dispute things for as long as it suits them financially. And by the way Kid you mis-quoted me, please be more respectful in the future. I said that a fetus is HUMAN
A human fetus is HUMAN. It is HUMAN. Period. You turned around and started using the term human being right below my quote. I object to that.

>And saying it is a fact is silly. Science has problems defining <what "Life" is,

Scientists would be out of work if they agreed on everything. There is a built in dynamic in science to dispute theory and promote your own.

<and don't tell me this is just nonsense
>semantics, because that's what all issues come down to.

For you maybe.

>Don't just say to me "life is life" and "a person is a person". If >you're going to define what life or a human being is, please >at least state some criteria instead of giving me a sentence <of three words that is entirely circular. (I'm not venting this <specifically at you, but this is what people have responded <with before on the abortion issue).


I defined life earlier in the abortion thread sir, use your scroller. IT took me two seconds to find the definition of life on an online dictionary. A fetus fits the criteria.



Edited by Solo on 06/14/01 09:48 PM.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #340923 -

We have no shortage of morons in this world who will make all sorts of outrageous claims for any number of reasons. Doesn't make it right.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #340948 -

I read that years ago somewhere. I just did a search and found this review of the book I read it in:
http://www.amat.org.nz/Morowitz1.htm

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Solo]
    #340960 -

"Professionals making money arguing with each other will continue to dispute things for as long as it suits them financially."
"Scientists would be out of work if they agreed on everything. There is a built in dynamic in science to dispute theory and promote your own."

Solo, you seem to be implying that people become scientists for the money and the glory. We get into for our love of learning about the world. I'm an amphibian biologist; if it were so financially rewarding everybody would be doing it. If I was interested in getting rich, I would have gone to med school.

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #341072 -

"Professionals making money arguing with each other will continue to dispute things for as long as it suits them financially."
"Scientists would be out of work if they agreed on everything. There is a built in dynamic in science to dispute theory and promote your own."

Solo, you seem to be implying that people become scientists for the money and the glory. We get into for our love of learning about the world. I'm an amphibian biologist; if it were so financially rewarding everybody would be doing it. If I was interested in getting rich, I would have gone to med school.

My main point is that individuals who practice various types of science for a living will always continue to dispute the validity of others research for their own status. MY statement, by the way could just as easily apply to just about any profession.

FYI, as you probably know, there happens to still exist a 'flat earth society'. Do you know if a scientist belongs to the organization?


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #341099 -

Appreciate the link, Zetek.

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Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #341170 -

In reply to:

How can you assume that simply because a person has done one criminal act that they will do it again?



Very simple, statistically you are more likely to be imprisoned more then once then just once. The vast majority of people in prison are 'career criminals'. I understand that doesn't mean ALL ppl are, that's why I chose my words so carefully ('most likely').


Now, I understand these are still open to interpretation but I think this presents something to chew on.

life (l?f) n., pl. lives (l?vz). 1. Biology. a. The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism. b. The characteristic state or condition of a living organism. 2. Living organisms considered as a group. 3. A living being, especially a person. 4. The physical, mental, and spiritual experiences that constitute existence. 5.a. The interval of time between birth and death. b. The interval of time between one's birth and the present. c. A particular segment of one's life. d. The period from an occurrence until death. e. Slang. A sentence of imprisonment lasting till death. 6. The time for which something exists or functions. 7. A spiritual state regarded as a transcending of corporeal death. 8. An account of a person's life; a biography. 9. Human existence, relationships, or activity in general. 10.a. A manner of living. b. A specific, characteristic manner of existence. Used of inanimate objects. c. The activities and interests of a particular area or realm. 11.a. A source of vitality; an animating force. b. Liveliness or vitality; animation. 12.a. Something that actually exists regarded as a subject for an artist. b. Actual environment or reality; nature.

hu?man (hy??m?n) adj. 1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of human beings. 2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character that distinguish human beings from the lower animals. 3. Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with human beings. 4. Having the form of a human being. 5. Made up of human beings. --hu?man n. A human being; a person. --hu?man?hood? n. --hu?man?ness n.

Both from the american heritage dictionary.

Certainly a fetus fits both of those definations in one way or another. How anyone could debate that abortion is not killing atleast SOMETHING is absurd. On the same note, how anyone could debate that the fetus is something other then human (perhaps its a dog?) is equally absurd.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #341172 -

they should have aborted timothy mcveigh

madness never slows down, it only piles up.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Solo]
    #341228 -

Check this out:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm

Considering the claims of the Flat Earth Society, I would have to say that being a scientist (by definition...one who gains knowledge by careful observation, deduction of the laws which govern changes and conditions, and by testing these deductions by experiment) and advocating the concept of a flat earth, are mutually exclusive.

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #341245 -

****What I can't understand is how it seems as though the pro-life camp is convinced than any pro-choicer is a salavating baby murderer; that all pro-choicers enjoy ripping fetuses from the womb****

the same can be said for people, such as myself, who are pro-death penalty

****Pro-choice is just that; having the option****

I'm pro-life. But if a person wants to abort then i say let them do it, i just don't want to pay for it. It's God, not me, who they need to explain about their actions.

****some people DO NOT consider a fetus a human****

And some do adimantly(sp). Is it only your opinion that counts?

****Everyone can agree that a 33 year old is both human and alive****

And therefore responsible for their actions....a fetus is not

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #341247 -

****I'm just trying to provide a defining characteristic of what it is to be "human." ****

That's fine and all but it's the wrong definition.

****A five-month old fetus can be viable and not yet have it's cerebral cortex wired up****

would they send the baby home if it wasn't?

****This might be too clinical for some people's tastes, but that's my opinion of how "human" should be defined****

At least you admitted it was merely an opinion and not solid fact..i can respect that..though i disagree with you completly

****believe morally that it should be well before the embryo/fetus reaches this window of development****

At at what time do you believe the embryo/fetus reaches this window?...taking in consideration the example i gave about my friends baby being born at 6 months.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
    #341376 -

I honestly don't see where a 1st trimester fetus fits any of the definitions of 'human'. Number 2 and number 4 are the only possible arguments: 2- as Zetek pointed out, a Cerebral Cortex is what seperates us from the lower life forms. It isn't wired until 3rd trimester. So that kills the argument for number2.
Number 4- a lump of grey cells does not resemble a human being to me.

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #341389 -

If I was aborted,even if it was before I reached a stage of development that is considered "human",I wouldn't be alive,I would be dead.
That is my view on abortion.



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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Solo]
    #341685 -

> And by the way Kid you mis-quoted me, please be more respectful in the future. I said that a fetus is HUMAN
A human fetus is HUMAN. It is HUMAN. Period. You turned around and started using the term human being right below my quote. I object to that.

Then that's not a misquote is it, if it's part of my reply?

> Professionals making money arguing with each other will continue to dispute things for as long as it suits them financially.

Okay, blame all semantic problems on the fact that people want to make money. Sure.

> Scientists would be out of work if they agreed on everything. There is a built in dynamic in science to dispute theory and promote your own.

As we all know all scientists are rich. Again, this is ridiculous. Semantic problems are not the result of economic behaviour.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
    #341689 -

>1. Biology. a. The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

Metabolism: Even a rock undergoes slow chemical reaction.
Reproduction. A rock splits in two.
Response to stimuli. Kick a rock.

> 1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of human beings.

An ape has the characteristics of being human.

> How anyone could debate that abortion is not killing atleast SOMETHING is absurd.

Everything can be absurd, but I never said that abortion wasn't killing.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #341975 -

I used to be adamently pro choice.

I have come to currently believe that late term abortions are morally unacceptable. Whether they should be illegal or not is another question, that I don't know the answer to.

I have never heard of a fetus living after only being in the womb 18 weeks (4.5 months). So unless anybody can present evidence to the contrary, that will be my "random line in the sand" as to when it becomes a no-no.

http://www.captainjackmusic.com


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Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #342033 -

In reply to:

Metabolism: Even a rock undergoes slow chemical reaction.
Reproduction. A rock splits in two.
Response to stimuli. Kick a rock.



Are you fucking kidding me? I lost all respect I had for you with that statement. Firstly, another defination is in order. me?tab?o?lism (m?-t?b??-l?z??m) n. Biology. 1. The complex of physical and chemical processes occurring within a living cell or organism that are necessary for the maintenance of life. In metabolism some substances are broken down to yield energy for vital processes while other substances, necessary for life, are synthesized. 2. The functioning of a specific substance within the living body.

How on earth is this explained by 'even a rock undergoes some chemical change'? On top of that, a rock does not undergo slow chemical reaction from within. If you refer back to what you were talking about.. it says (and i quote) '.. response to stimuli or adaption to the enviroment orginating from within the organism'. A rock does not change without outside stimuli. Be it the pressure of earth's atmosphere, or rain erosion, or otherwise. Still it is all outside stimuli.

Secondly.. Splitting it two is not reproduction. If I were to cut your hand off did you just have a child? Of course not. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Thirdly, simple physics (ie kicking a rock and having it move) is NOT response to stimuli. Try kicking a mountain. Does it respond? Well its really just a very big rock isn't it?

I am truely worried for you if in your mind a fetus is no more alive then a rock.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #342036 -

hu?man (hy??m?n) adj. 1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of human beings. 2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character that distinguish human beings from the lower animals. (how about genetics? do you think just ANYTHING will come out if those particular cells are left to grow?) 3. Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with human beings. (Obviously but that could be true of any creature so we'll ignore this) 4. Having the form of a human being. (A common argument of mine when playing devil's advocate on this subject is the fact that the fetus's of most 'higher' life forms look nearly identical. However, keep in mind a chimp looks very similar to a human, as to most primates. Therefore its reasonable that one must take into greater details when choosing to classify something of this nature. Certainly any scientific study of a givin fetus would show the many simliarities between one and a fully grown, or atleast infantial, human.) 5. Made up of human beings. (Well.. technically... but we'll leave this one out too) --hu?man n. A human being; a person. --hu?man?hood? n. --hu?man?ness n.


I'll try to look past the fact that you used an unagreed upon opinion as fact in your argument, but in the future, try not to treat other's arbitrary points of views as some type of evidence.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
    #342742 -

"2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character that distinguish human beings from the lower animals. (how about genetics? do you think just ANYTHING will come out if those particular cells are left to grow?) "

The definition does not state anywhere the 'potential' and that is what you are basing that argument on. ('left to grow')

"4. Having the form of a human being. (A common argument of mine when playing devil's advocate on this subject is the fact that the fetus's of most 'higher' life forms look nearly identical. However, keep in mind a chimp looks very similar to a human, as to most primates. Therefore its reasonable that one must take into greater details when choosing to classify something of this nature. Certainly any scientific study of a givin fetus would show the many simliarities between one and a fully grown, or atleast infantial, human.) "

Well, at what trimester are you asserting that that would be true? For the first weeks the "fetus" is really no more than a lump of cells. That doesn't resemble a human or chimp any more than it resembles a platypus. And, early on, I don't believe (I could be wrong, but it is my understanding) that the genetic/physical differences in a human fetus and other primate fetuses are basically nonexistant. What you seem to be arguing against are late term abortions. None of your arguments really pertain to relatively early abortions.



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Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #342747 -

"****Pro-choice is just that; having the option****

I'm pro-life. But if a person wants to abort then i say let them do it, i just don't want to pay for it. It's God, not me, who they need to explain about their actions"

Ok, then you are pro-choice. If you believe that another can have an abortion, you are pro-choice. Just because you wouldn't personally have an abortion, you still believe in the freedom to choose. That is what the issue is all about. Why have you been so adamant about arguing to the contrary???
And there are those of us who don't believe that a judging, seperate godhead exists. Read some John Martin to see why. Or better yet, read the Tao De Xing. Just for some perspective, if nothing else.
And the way our gov. wastes money, feel secure in the fact that a much larger amount of your money is being wasted elsewhere. Money spent on abortion is not even a drop in the bucket, in the grand scheme of things.


"**some people DO NOT consider a fetus a human****

And some do adimantly(sp). Is it only your opinion that counts? "

No, both opinions are valid. One shouldn't take preference over the other. That is why people should have the right to choose, based on THEIR opinion. Those who are politically pro-life are trying to have the federal government sanction their opinion on the matter.





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Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #342786 -

"- as Zetek pointed out, a Cerebral Cortex is what seperates us from the lower life forms."

I've got to make one small correction here PeachMan (and maybe open up a whole new can of worms)...

Actually what I said was, it is the degree of development of our cerebral cortex that separates us from other species; chimpanzees for example. They have a cerebral cortex, but it isn't complex enough to allow them to do things which are uniquely human.

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #342866 -

Zetek, right. I meant an advanced cerebral cortex that seperates us from chimps, etc... My fault for the confusion.

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #343147 -

In reply to:

The definition does not state anywhere the 'potential' and that is what you are basing that argument on. ('left to grow')



That's not what I'm basing my argument on. I'm basing it on its current genetic make up. Which is 100% human.

In reply to:

Well, at what trimester are you asserting that that would be true? For the first weeks the "fetus" is really no more than a lump of cells. That doesn't resemble a human or chimp any more than it resembles a platypus. And, early on, I don't believe (I could be wrong, but it is my understanding) that the genetic/physical differences in a human fetus and other primate fetuses are basically nonexistant. What you seem to be arguing against are late term abortions. None of your arguments really pertain to relatively early abortions.



It seems we aren't all aware of the stages of fetus developement. By week 4 it has not only has a backbone and muscles forming, and have eyes, arms, legs, and ears, but it has a heart, which pumps blood through its body. A pregnancy is not even detectable until week 2. No realistic abortion takes place before atleast this. By week 8 all organs have finished forming. The stomach produce digestive juices and the kidney's function. 40 muscle sets are working in conjunction with the nervous system. If this isn't alive I don't know what is.

Before responding to any more posts in a thread of this nature, perhaps we should all do a little reading.. www.justthefacts.org is a nice place to start. Maybe if everyone had a better idea of what exactly a 6 week old fetus was, (a clump of cells with a working circulatory system?) we'd get more productive results.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)

Edited by Kriz on 06/18/01 12:59 AM.



--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
    #343320 -

Kriz, I think your missing the point. We all know the zygote/embryo/fetus is alive. The question is what makes it human? Pull a cell out of my liver, or my eyelid, or my left femur. I guarantee that they are alive and all possess 100% of my genetic makeup. Those cells are of a human but are not a human. When considering an embryo of a human, there is nothing about it that uniquely sets it aside from all other species. It can't think; it isn't conscience, it isn't self-aware. So what human qualities does it have? A chimpanzee has all of those qualities, so why isn't a chimpanzee human?

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #343428 -

I think "oh it isn't an offical human yet" is a lame excuse.
I would spend years in jail for killing a poodle,but killing a human fetus is perfectly legal.
If you killed me at any stage of development,even if it was before the 'official human' stage,I would be dead because you killed me,and it was perfectly legal because of your lame ass excuse.



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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #343446 -

****Ok, then you are pro-choice****

NO...To make things clear those who abort are fucking losers perhaps the only exception would be incest or rape.. In addition i feel that they have no concept of personal responsibility. Abortion is wrong but it is not up to me to stop them. I would be in favor of any law that would make the woman have to get the permission of the father before proceding. I also think these fucking loser fathers need to take responsibility and take care of their babys.

****And there are those of us who don't believe that a judging, seperate godhead exists. Read some John Martin to see why. Or better yet, read the Tao De Xing****

I have no will or desire to read someone elses opinion on God. In fact it's quite naive to just believe someone who writes a book. I will choose my faith and common sense......you can follow others if you like.

****Money spent on abortion is not even a drop in the bucket, in the grand scheme of things. ****

I agree that the government waste money but that is besides the point and still doesn't make this right. I don't care if it cost a dollar. I don't want to pay for it...maybe these losers need to pay cash.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #343480 -

The issue of whether abortion is right or wrong is largely irrelavent to its legality (though for the record, I do not believe a fetus comes even close to being considered human - it has a vestigial tail early on, for one thing). More important is to consider what the alternative would be - is a child growing up unwanted, un-loved and most likely financially disadvantaged somehow better off?


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Pynchon]
    #343494 -

****The issue of whether abortion is right or wrong is largely irrelavent to its legality ****

Would you say the same thing for murder or rape?...i don't think so

****I do not believe a fetus comes even close to being considered human - it has a vestigial tail early on, for one thing****

And about 50% think you are wrong...where does that leave us now? Is it your 50% that should heard over the other 50%?

****More important is to consider what the alternative would be - is a child growing up unwanted, un-loved and most likely financially disadvantaged somehow better off?****

Maybe that's something that needs to be in consideration before a woman opens her legs. It's called personal responsibility and many, if not most people today have none. There are many children that grow up unwanted who amount to very much in society today. If money is concerned then that further solidifies my point where the man and the woman need to think it out before they screw.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Pynchon]
    #343495 -

There aren't enough babies up for adoption...people who want to adopt have to wait 5 or 10 years to get a baby because there aren't enough babies availible.
Why not put it up for adoption instead of killing it and dumping it's dead body in a trash can?


BTW,I'm not completly against abortion.If a 9 year old girl gets raped,and she would die while giving birth because she is too small,then she should have an abortion.
There are many sick fuckers that use abortion as an alternative to condoms.Keep fucking untill she gets pregnant,then kill the babie before its born.There are girls that have had 3 or 4 free abortions.
What if the father doesn't want his babie murdered? Where the fuck is his choice?

Edited by Intox on 06/18/01 11:56 AM.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #343534 -

"Would you say the same thing for murder and rape?...I don't think so"

Of course not. I would however say the same thing about euthanaseia, a much more appropriate analogy.

It is not my opinion that a fetus has a vestigial tail in its early development...it is an easily verifiable fact. It also has vestigial gills. A fetus is in effect undergoing a much compressed version of evolution, though its obviously impossible to say at which point it becomes truly human.

Everything else you say is absolutely correct, very few people today even know the meaning of personal responsibility. Which is a good reason for giving them the option of not becoming parents.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Pynchon]
    #343582 -

***Of course not. I would however say the same thing about euthanaseia****

I believe that euthanaseia is the same as abotion however at the end of a persons life. So at least we're making it clear that you are for the extermination of seniors against their will. At least you can admit what you are for.

****It is not my opinion that a fetus has a vestigial tail in its early development...it is an easily verifiable fact****

I don't believe i discounted your "facts" I do discount the idea that its not a human because it didn't reach that development point (where you have admitted you have no idea when it is human) I, however believe that conception is the point where it is to be considered a human...but hey i guess that's my opinion

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #343876 -

In reply to:

If you killed me at any stage of development,even if it was before the 'official human' stage,I would be dead because you killed me,and it was perfectly legal because of your lame ass excuse.



So you are against killing any life, regardless of whether it is human or not?

In reply to:

And about 50% think you are wrong...where does that leave us now? Is it your 50% that should heard over the other 50%?



Against abortion? Then don't have one.

In reply to:

Everything else you say is absolutely correct, very few people today even know the meaning of personal responsibility. Which is a good reason for giving them the option of not becoming parents.



Well said.

In reply to:

I believe that euthanaseia is the same as abotion however at the end of a persons life. So at least we're making it clear that you are for the extermination of seniors against their will. At least you can admit what you are for.

.

Now you're getting a little silly Innvertigo. Extermination of seniors against their will? At least you can admit what you are for? Your argument is degrading very quickly...

In reply to:

I, however believe that conception is the point where it is to be considered a human...but hey i guess that's my opinion



I respect your opinion but I'd like to know why you consider it human at conception. Any particular reason?








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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #343879 -

Clarification.

I replied to Innvertigo's post, but in doing so, I also included a quote by Intox. I didn't intend to make it appear as if Intox's statement was Innvertigo's.

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #343959 -

***will or desire to read someone elses opinion on God. In fact it's quite naive to just believe someone who writes a book. I will choose my faith and common sense......you can follow others if you like. ***

That is not at all what I was implying, and I think you know enough about me to know that. All I was suggesting is that you get some sort of different perspective on things than the one fed to you by mommy and daddy and the southern baptist ministry at large. I'm too damn tired to be objective, so I'll stop now. But I will say this: It is absolutely fucking pathetic when people are so sure they are right that they will not even consider another view point. I'm glad you are 100% sure you are right. Maybe you can teach the rest of us, oh wise leader.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #344022 -

"So you are against killing any life, regardless of whether it is human or not?"



I'm against killing a life that is developing into a "human" such as a human fetus,not just any life such as a bullfrog or a rat.



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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #344155 -

In reply to:

Against abortion? Then don't have one.



What a strange little world you must live in.. "Against murder? Then don't kill anyone." "Against the jailing of innocent marijuana smokers? Don't become a cop." How I wish my life were so simple.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #344161 -

In reply to:

The question is what makes it human? Pull a cell out of my liver, or my eyelid, or my left femur. I guarantee that they are alive and all possess 100% of my genetic makeup. Those cells are of a human but are not a human



Does your liver have a heart? Does your liver have a brain? Does your liver have eyes, or legs or arms? I guess I'm not the only one missing the point.

In reply to:

can't think; it isn't conscience, it isn't self-aware. So what human qualities does it have?



Firstly, any animal with a brain can 'think', so that quality can hardly be one to set as a point where one becomes 'human'. A newborn baby is not fully conscience, and most likely its not self aware. Is it therefore not a human? If that's the case when do you become a human? When you stop developing perhaps? So only 20+ year olds are 'human'? Picking any arbitrary spot where this embryo becomes 'human' is ridiculous.

In reply to:

A chimpanzee has all of those qualities, so why isn't a chimpanzee human?



Exactly. Opening the door for such foolish qualities nessisary to be considered 'human' opens the door to stupidity all together. If you are going to claim that a fetus is not a human, then you MUST back up that argument by picking a definate point in development where it stops being whatever you think it is, and becomes a human. Thus far only one point has been suggested. A developed cerbral cortex I believe it is. However, that's hardly a definate place for it. Your brain does not fully develope until around the age of 15, so you could, by that very logic, claim that you are not 'human' until you are 15 years old.. OR you could claim that any species with a cerbral cortex is a human being and should be treated as such. Until you have decided what your beliefs are exactly, what makes you so bold as to think your beliefs should be validated by others?

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
    #344208 -

In reply to:

Picking any arbitrary spot where this embryo becomes 'human' is ridiculous.... Opening the door for such foolish qualities nessisary to be considered 'human' opens the door to stupidity all together. If you are going to claim that a fetus is not a human, then you MUST back up that argument by picking a definate point in development where it stops being whatever you think it is, and becomes a human. Thus far only one point has been suggested. A developed cerbral cortex I believe it is. However, that's hardly a definate place for it.



I didn't say a fully developed cerebral cortex. I implied a "functioning" cerbral cortex because a fetus' cortex wires up in the 3rd trimester.



Is this your definite place for considering it human?

In reply to:

By week 4 it has not only has a backbone and muscles forming, and have eyes, arms, legs, and ears, but it has a heart, which pumps blood through its body. A pregnancy is not even detectable until week 2. No realistic abortion takes place before atleast this. By week 8 all organs have finished forming. The stomach produce digestive juices and the kidney's function. 40 muscle sets are working in conjunction with the nervous system. If this isn't alive I don't know what is.



These organs may be functioning but they are not unique to Homo sapiens. If I use your broad definition of human I have to include a lot of other species.

I suspect though, that you consider it human when it is a zygote with human DNA in its nucleus. I don't. Most fertilizations never result in a full-term baby. They are spontaneously aborted by the body due to developmental errors. When the fetus actually has a realistic chance of living outside of its mothers body and has characteristics unique to humans, then I'll consider it human.










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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #344231 -

****Against abortion? Then don't have one****

In addition i don't want the government (you and I) to have to pay for it. being poor is no excuse.....food for thought....i have no choice if "MY" woman aborts my child. That my friend is sad.

****Now you're getting a little silly Innvertigo. Extermination of seniors against their will? At least you can admit what you are for? Your argument is degrading very quickly... ****

Am I? What do you call Euthanasia then? Notice you didn't deny it..hmmmm....My argument is far from degrading. I'm demonstrating absurdery with the absurd.

****I respect your opinion but I'd like to know why you consider it human at conception. Any particular reason? ****

Because if left alone the single cell / Embreo will form into a baby...on the same note if a Teenager is left alone he/she will form into a Senior.................. but will probably be Euthenized :)

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #344236 -

****I think you know enough about me to know that****

I don't know you that well..and i'm sure there are others that don't either..try not to flatter yourself ;)

****All I was suggesting is that you get some sort of different perspective on things than the one fed to you by mommy and daddy and the southern baptist ministry at large****

I haven't lived with "Mommy and Daddy" in about 13 years. I am Catholic not Baptist and don't agree with the baptist except for the "big picture" .....and i'm from the North..there is nothing Southern about me.

****But I will say this: It is absolutely fucking pathetic when people are so sure they are right that they will not even consider another view point****

How does it feel? That's been my problem ever since this debate has entered into our society. If you open your eyes you will see another point of view.

****I'm glad you are 100% sure you are right. Maybe you can teach the rest of us, oh wise leader.****

Do i sense a little desperation? I believe i'm right because i think life is sacred and what God intended. That is all i need to make my decisions.....oh am i not supposed to believe in my opinion a 100%...or should i be wishy washy?


You are showing close mindedness maybe it is you who should open up

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #344261 -

> In addition i feel that they have no concept of personal responsibility.

I accept personal responsibility for all of my action. Social responsibility is another thing entirely. Perhaps you are confusing the two.

> I have no will or desire to read someone elses opinion on God. In fact it's quite naive to just believe someone who writes a book. I will choose my faith and common sense......you can follow others if you like.

"Common sense" is following others.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
    #344262 -

> Firstly, any animal with a brain can 'think', so that quality can hardly be one to set as a point where one becomes 'human'. A newborn baby is not fully conscience, and most likely its not self aware. Is it therefore not a human? If that's the case when do you become a human? When you stop developing perhaps? So only 20+ year olds are 'human'? Picking any arbitrary spot where this embryo becomes 'human' is ridiculous.

So then what you're saying is that an embryo is human right at conception?


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #344264 -

> Because if left alone the single cell / Embreo will form into a baby...

Unless of course it's a stillborn, or one of those organisms born without a brain. Still, ruling out any birth defects, you're claiming that something that should become a fully developed adult should be considered a human being. I consider it a lump of cells.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #344283 -

****I accept personal responsibility for all of my action. Social responsibility is another thing entirely. Perhaps you are confusing the two. ****

No i'm not.....there are many who don't take responsibility for their actions.....

****"Common sense" is following others.****

If your a socialist of liberal perhaps...

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #344284 -

****Unless of course it's a stillborn, or one of those organisms born without a brain. Still, ruling out any birth defects, you're claiming that something that should become a fully developed adult should be considered a human being. I consider it a lump of cells.****

And that's your opinion which is fine. As for your example of a still born, they die natuarally but i still consider it a human until it dies. Fully development has nothing to do with it. I think people who were born with birth defects are human as well even though there are parts of their body that are missing

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #344302 -

In reply to:

****Now you're getting a little silly Innvertigo. Extermination of seniors against their will? At least you can admit what you are for? Your argument is degrading very quickly... ****

Am I? What do you call Euthanasia then? Notice you didn't deny it..hmmmm....My argument is far from degrading. I'm demonstrating absurdery with the absurd.



When I think of euthanasia, I think of physician-assisted suicide. These people are not dying against their will. They are a person, and as such, have the right to decide what to do with their own body. In a situation such as "mercy killing" if it is against the will of the person, then yes that is murder and is wrong.

In reply to:

****I respect your opinion but I'd like to know why you consider it human at conception. Any particular reason? ****

Because if left alone the single cell / Embreo will form into a baby...on the same note if a Teenager is left alone he/she will form into a Senior.................. but will probably be Euthenized :)



I should probably stop here and define my terms:

Person: Being an individual or existing as an indivisible whole; existing as a distinct entity.

Human: Possession of the qualities and characteristics which separate Homo sapiens from all other animals.

As a zygote or embryo, it does not have human characteristics, which I have previously attributed to an advanced cerebral cortex. Now it has the potential to develop/wire up an advanced cerebral cortex, so I would say it is a potential human, but not human yet.

And it clearly is not a person. It is a potential person. Sorry, but I believe the rights of an existing, independent person outweigh those (if any) of a potential person.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #344328 -

****When I think of euthanasia, I think of physician-assisted suicide. These people are not dying against their will. They are a person, and as such, have the right to decide what to do with their own body. In a situation such as "mercy killing" if it is against the will of the person, then yes that is murder and is wrong.****

physician-assisted suicide is a form of euthanasia but you'd have to be naive to think that is the only kind that goes on. Further more I am against i say it is what it is.

****As a zygote or embryo, it does not have human characteristics****

It doesn't have human dna as an embreo? Is that not a human characteristic? hmmmmm

****which I have previously attributed to an advanced cerebral cortex****

Which means nothing because you discount the evolution of the "Human" Embryo as non human...what is it then? an ape?...so let me get you strait....if a person is born with a non-advanced cerebral cortex (like those with cerebral pulsy) aren't human or a person???? ......i would rellay like to hear the answer to that!!

****I would say it is a potential human, but not human yet. ****

sigh.......yet again just an opinion which you have the right to say. However for every example of non-human i can site an example of Human...so where do we stand....or am "I" being closed minded.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #344395 -

In reply to:

****As a zygote or embryo, it does not have human characteristics****

It doesn't have human dna as an embreo? Is that not a human characteristic? hmmmmm



Every human cell in a human has human DNA in its nucleus. (Notice how human may be used as an adjective or a noun.) Consider that if every human cell were itself a human, how many millions of humans you would murdering every time you jacked off...;-)

In reply to:

****which I have previously attributed to an advanced cerebral cortex****

Which means nothing because you discount the evolution of the "Human" Embryo as non human...what is it then? an ape?...so let me get you strait....if a person is born with a non-advanced cerebral cortex (like those with cerebral pulsy) aren't human or a person???? ......i would rellay like to hear the answer to that!!



????What?? I'm not following you here.... Let me reiterate... I've stated that I believe that the "wiring up" of the cerebral cortex of a human fetus is when it may be considered a human. I believe this because it is the degree of development of our cerebral cortex that separates us from all other species. A person that is born with Cerebral Palsy (CP) is not lacking a "non-advanced cerebral cortex." CP is caused by damaged to the cerebrum, which is covered by the cerebral cortex. Click here http://www.susiecphome.com/ to see a webpage built by a person with CP. Of course they are a human and a person.

In reply to:

sigh.......yet again just an opinion which you have the right to say. However for every example of non-human i can site an example of Human...so where do we stand....or am "I" being closed minded.



Actually, it is much easier to decide what is not human rather what is human (in my opinion, of course). For the sake of argument, let's say you accept my premise that it is the degree of development of the cerebral cortex that makes us human. I think by definition, you and I would both agree that a chimpanzee is not human. But if we were to precisely examine the human characteristics and qualities given to us by our highly developed cerebral cortex, e.g. consciousness, self-awareness, language, medicine, culture, emotions, altruism, rationality, etc., it's hard to find any wherein chimps don't also possess those qualities. It further goes to the degree of development of those qualites I guess.

Now, before you tell me that by my standard it should still be okay to kill a newborn baby because it isn't self-aware, or doesn't use language, etc., those things are correct but it's not okay to kill a newborn baby (or a fetus in the 3rd trimester, in my opinion.) It has a functioning cerebral cortex of human quality, which is what I require of it.


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #344733 -

I'm done even trying in this topic. I'll just close with this:
Whatever Invertigo, you know what I was trying to say. If you want to pick apart every little phrase and misconstrue it, fine. I don't give a fuck, but anyone can see that you are misconstruing the original intent of the post.
I wasn't flattering myself. It's just that we've argued 100s of times here, and you know my stance as a liberal/libertarian. That's all I was getting at. You wanna be an ass, fine.
And no, that was not desperation, it was called being fed up with people claiming to be open minded not even listening to the other side coupled with three consecutive 16 hr work days (manual labor, and today was the fourth so I'm tired as fuck). So fuck off.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #344984 -

****I'm done even trying in this topic****

I was wondering how long it would take for you to see that this argument (discussed many times) is a big circle. Unfortunatly for you Science cannot solve everything and that my friend needs to be known before engaging in this sort of argument..though i give you credit.

****Whatever Invertigo, you know what I was trying to say****

Yeah i do know what you mean.......you're right and i'm closeminded...right?

****If you want to pick apart every little phrase and misconstrue it, fine****

Would you have me believe everything you say because you say it?.....this is where YOU'RE argument is degrading.

****I don't give a fuck****

Then why are you soooo pissed?

****It's just that we've argued 100s of times here****

no we haven't but next time i'll know you ;)


****and you know my stance as a liberal/libertarian****

This is a contradiction of titles. A liberal is NOT a Libertarian even though they look similar. I am a libertarian (maybe however on the right end of the libertarian scale...if there is one

****it was called being fed up with people claiming to be open minded ****

Or was it that your mad because i think your wrong?

****So fuck off.****

TSK TSK TSK....And you wonder why i don't take you serious. I will not reply in kind so i bid you farewell.





Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #345938 -

> ****I accept personal responsibility for all of my action. Social responsibility is another thing entirely. Perhaps you are confusing the two. ****

> No i'm not.....there are many who don't take responsibility for their actions.....

I see a dichotomy between social and personal responsibility. Personal responsibility is simply knowing, admitting (to yourself) or believing that you have free will and chose your own actions (esp. relevant when you've broken your own moral code).

Social responsibility is admitting to others that you've chosen a certain action.

I'm certain that most people take personal responsibility, but why bother taking social responsibility when that would just have negative ramifications (eg// in the case of criminal behaviour, that means you have to suffer legal consequences).

For example, I bet that you take personal responsibility for your drug use, but do you take social responsibility for it?

> ****"Common sense" is following others.****

> If your a socialist of liberal perhaps...

If it weren't "common" they wouldn't call it that. I really doubt that every human being would be led to the same "common sense" solutions if they lived in isolation. That's why "common" sense is following others. You're still relying on the judgement of others.

Also, you admit you're a Catholic. I think that has something to do with following others as well.



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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #345955 -

What?...did you go on vacation or something?

****For example, I bet that you take personal responsibility for your drug use, but do you take social responsibility for it? ****

i think i'm missing your point. example. Mcveigh took personal resonsibility (ie: admitted it) as for social responsibility i think he did by telling others that were involved..

This is probably a bad example but i did say i was missing your point :)

****That's why "common" sense is following others****

True but as discussed before it varies from house to house and country to country.

****Also, you admit you're a Catholic. I think that has something to do with following others as well****

Just God

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #346274 -

> What?...did you go on vacation or something?

yeah I went on vacation, no wait, that was work, sorry. (they pay me to sit on my ass and read)..


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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #346515 -

****they pay me to sit on my ass and read****

You must work in a union then eh?...j/k

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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