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Abortion
    #1237250 -

Hi,

I realize that abortion has probably been debated a million times in past threads in
this forum. I apologize for any redundancy.

I am interested in hearing everybody's quick opinions on abortion. Please tell
me if you are pro-life or pro-choice, and give a brief description as to why you
feel that way.

I'll go first:

I do respect pro-lifers. They have a genuine concern for human life, and that
is admirable.

However I am pro-choice. I don't give a hill of beans about the "women have a
right to choose" argument. I look at it this way:

1. There are too many people on this planet. When overcrowding occurs there
is pollution, crime, and other problems. We need to make efforts to curb excess
population growth.

2. Of all of the pregnancies that occur, many are not wanted. When a child is
born into a situation where they are not wanted, it is probable that they will
not receive the proper guidance, attention, and love. When that happens, they
often become very unhappy people who commit crimes and have no respect
for anything. Not only will their non-existence make our lives easier, I think it is
humane to spare them from a life of misery.

Well, that is pretty much where I stand.


RandalFlagg

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Re: Abortion [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1237257 -

I am pro-choice, but only because illegal abortions are much more dangerous than the procedures used in legal abortions. I don't condone abortion but think it should remain legal.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Abortion [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1237433 -

I am pro-choice for a few reasons:

1. A woman has every right to have a part of herself removed, be it a fetus or mole.

2. Your overpopulation arguement, however politically incorrect it may be.

3. Silversoul's arguement that illegal abortions are very dangerous.

Given the first and third arguement, I believe partial birth abortions are fucked up, and there is a point where overpopulation becomes less important than stabbing a kid in the brain.

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Re: Abortion [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1237523 -

I believe you should be allowed to abort anyone that is not producing to support themselves unless said individuals are physically unable to support themselves.  That covers everything from college students sponging off of their parents, 45 year old welfare mothers and career politicans to DEA agents... but of course fetuses and the mentally and physically handicapped don't fall into this category. :grin:


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Abortion [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1238173 -

I'm pro-life...or pro-choice towards life

i believe in personal responsibility, that governs my decision.

however it should never be illegal or regulated. Just make sure that those doing it pay for it themselves.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Innvertigo (01/22/03 01:42 AM)

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Re: Abortion [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1238217 -

I am of the view that the women's life is more important than the unborn babies because she is a person too, and a fully developed one. I don't beleive that she should be subjected to 18 or more years of looking after a child which would become a large part of that 18 years lost, if she does not want to, is not ready, is physically ill or disabled, was raped, financially incapable, is mentally ill, etc etc. I also believe, as you say Randallflag, that energy of forced commitment to the child would be bad for it.

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Re: Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1238718 -

Quote:
Just make sure that those doing it pay for it themselves.


I agree with that. Medicare shouldn't cover abortions. But one thing I think would favor is if a woman could just go to her doctor for an abortion rather than having to go clinics with swarms of angry protesters calling her a baby-killer and a whore.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Abortion [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1238880 -

i'm pro-life. my reason for this is that there are just too many forms of contraception available for women to avoid having an unwanted pregnancy. if women, and teenage girls would exercise their brains and a little responsiblity, then they could avoid becoming pregnant and having to even deal with this issue. what is so hard about saying no to a guy, taking a pill, or having their man wear a condom? i mean, they even have a patch you can wear. as far as the "it's my body, my vagina, my choice" arguement, why not legalize crack or heroine? it's my body so shouldn't i have a right to abuse it any way i want? 

let the flames begin!  :grin:


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"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


Edited by htownkid28 (01/22/03 08:28 AM)

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Re: Abortion [Re: htownkid28]
    #1238905 -

The pill, and condoms as well, are not 100% reliable, even if used correctly. An accidental pregnancy is exactly that. Accidental. Don't judge these women. How they became pregnant is not the issue, it's how they become un-pregnant. We're all pro-life. It's ridiculous that the "pro-life"rs use that term to describe themselves, as if those of us who don't agree with them are anti-life or something. Who is really pro-death, or pro-abortion? It's just that some of us believe that being truly pro-life means allowing a woman to decide for herself whether or not she's able to bring a child into the world, even if she's already pregnant.

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Re: Abortion [Re: htownkid28]
    #1238955 -

Quote:
why not legalize crack or heroine?

They should be legal, along with abortion. My main reason for believing this is Randal's #2.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: Abortion [Re: ]
    #1239031 -

The pill, and condoms as well, are not 100% reliable, even if used correctly.

you're right. but abstinence, however, is 110% effective. if a woman is at a point in her life where getting pregnant is absolutely the last thing you need, then she needs to be responsible enough to take charge of her body and not put herself in that position. is that likely to happen all the time? probably not. but that does not change the fact that it her responsibility ultimately and not the governments.

It's ridiculous that the "pro-life"rs use that term to describe themselves, as if those of us who don't agree with them are anti-life or something.

ok. so i'll call myself an anti-abortionist. is that better? :wink: 


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Abortion [Re: Skikid16]
    #1239039 -

My main reason for believing this is Randal's #2.

what do you mean?


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Abortion [Re: htownkid28]
    #1239049 -

I was refering to randal's origional post, up at the top of this thread, and mainly, his reason #2.  Look up top ^^^^^^^^. :grin:


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: Abortion [Re: Skikid16]
    #1239085 -

oh, ok.  :grin: 


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"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Abortion [Re: htownkid28]
    #1239102 -

Glad we cleared that up. :wink:


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: Abortion [Re: htownkid28]
    #1239248 -

you're right. but abstinence, however, is 110% effective. if a woman is at a point in her life where getting pregnant is absolutely the last thing you need, then she needs to be responsible enough to take charge of her body and not put herself in that position. is that likely to happen all the time? probably not. but that does not change the fact that it her responsibility ultimately and not the governments.

In your first statement, you said that women were irresponsible for not using contraception. Now you've changed it to them being irresponsible for having sex? Odd. Also odd (but rather common amongst "pro-lifers") is it that you overlook the fact that sex and pregnancy is as much a man's responsibility as it is the woman's.

I think most people would agree that very few women (and men) are in a position that they should have a child. I believe that a child should only be brought into the world by people who are 100% emotionally and financially capable of providing a safe, loving home and good upbringing. Children should never be an unfortunate accident. Should all women (and men) not meeting these criteria avoid sex? No, that is unreasonable and unrealistic, and is why we have contraceptives. We are biologically capable and in fact have a physiological propensity to become pregnant very frequently and easily because in evolutionary times, it was important for women (and men) to have as many children as possible. This was because few of the children actually survived long enough for themselves to reproduce. Technology has advanced to the point that this is no longer the case, and our population is exploding. Fortunately, we also have the technology now to prevent reproduction, and we need to use it. Women (and men) have been having the same amount of sex (if not more) that they have now for thousands of years, and it is only technology that has made this detrimental to our species. Instead of expecting women (and I stress again, the men they have sex with) to simply alter their hard-wired reproductive behavior (which I may add is the strongest drive any living organism has), because of very recent changes in technology, is naive. Using technology (contraception) to solve the problems technology causes (overpopulation) is a more realistic approach. Abstinence is only 100% effective if women (and the men they have sex with) practice it, and that's not going to happen. And I never said it was the government's responsibility to do anything about it.

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Re: Abortion [Re: ]
    #1239299 -

I think that when girls turn thirteen, they should be implanted with
those anti-pregnancy rods that prevent pregnancy for five years. When
they are eighteen, they can decide if they want new rods implanted or not.
If the girl or the girl's parents refuse to get the rods implanted at age thirteen,
they should then be forced to sign a waiver that forbids any type of public
assistance to them in case of a teenage pregnancy.

The rod implantation should be taxpayer financed. It would pay for itself in one
year. Think of all of the unplanned pregnancies that would not occur, and all
of the public assistance that would not have to be paid out to these people.

Population control now!! Population control forever!!

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Re: Abortion [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1239402 -

Those rods have'nt been adequately researched. It is difficult for some women to use hormone contraceptives for reasons such as eg. family history of breast cancer (one of the things they know for sure about breast cancer is the link with hormone change), and mood disorders (roughly 12% of women).

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Re: Abortion [Re: ]
    #1241057 -

In your first statement, you said that women were irresponsible for not using contraception. Now you've changed it to them being irresponsible for having sex?

i'm not saying they are necessarily irresponsible for having sex. what i am saying is that each woman needs to evaluate their individual situation and make a determination on what they want. if they know that they definitely don't want to become pregnant then they need to take some responsibility for their actions and either decide to use some form of contraception, make their partner use contraception, or just flat out abstain from having sex. is it realistic to think that most women will take that approach? probably not. but that does not, however, lessen their being responsible for whether or not they let themselves get pregnant.

Also odd (but rather common amongst "pro-lifers") is it that you overlook the fact that sex and pregnancy is as much a man's responsibility as it is the woman's.

isn't it also odd that when someone brings up the abortion issue women will stand up and yell about it being their body and their choice but when it comes to contraception they try to shift it to the man's responsibilty? or when a pregnant woman wants an abortion but her partner wants to keep it, his say is overridden because it's her body. the bottom line is, women are right. it is their body. and, i know this is going to be an unpopular stance, the ownness of not getting pregnant falls solely on the woman. since she is the one who will carry the child and have to raise it by herself if the father splits. and the same goes for a man who doesn't want a child. if he doesn't want to be a father then he needs to wrap that rascal or obstain. her body, her vagina, her choice, her RESPONSIBILTY!  :wink: 


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Abortion [Re: htownkid28]
    #1241069 -

What if the woman is raped? Does that make her irresponsible?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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