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Anonymous

Death Penalty/Abortion
    #339818 - 06/13/01 10:15 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

It has been pointed out three thousand times that those who are pro-choice are usually opposed to capital punishment, and those who are pro-life are usually pro-capital punishment. This seeming contradiction of values is not (at least from the former's standpoint).
Because I'm crunched for time, I'll just open the dialogue up by giving a brief overveiw of why the former is not a contradiction of beliefs (can't defend the latter position, as I don't hold either belief)

-The abortion issue, to the pro-choice-er, is about individual rights vs. federal power. It has little do with wishing to see unborn fetus terminated.

-Being against the death penalty is recognizing that there are better means of reaching the end that the criminal justice system is supposed to give us (punishment, rehabilitation, protecting society). It also, to some, is about the sanctity of human life. To those who hold the latter reason and are still pro-choice, there is a difference between a living entity in society, and the potential to be a living entity in society.

Once again, just wishing to open the discussion...

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InvisibleKid
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #339880 - 06/13/01 12:52 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I see it more as an issue about the definition of what is a human being (is a fetus a human) or whether or not that life inside the mother is a separate life yet.



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OfflineSolo
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #340118 - 06/13/01 09:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

A fetus is most certainly human (it's not non-human) what the pro-choice poeple like to try to center the abortion arguament around is the definition of 'personhood' rather than 'life'. jA fetus is a life and a fetus is human this is medical fact.

And for the record I'm aginst both.



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OfflineKriz
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #340150 - 06/13/01 10:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

For me personally, its about innocence. The fetus has done no harm to anyone, its not yet even had a chance. The criminal has, and will most likely, do it again.

~Kriz

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InvisibleKid
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Solo]
    #340293 - 06/14/01 01:47 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> A fetus is most certainly human (it's not non-human)

It's an embryo.

> what the pro-choice poeple like to try to center the abortion arguament around is the definition of 'personhood' rather than 'life'.

Umm, nobody is denying that a fetus is alive, but human beings don't usually object to killing things. We kill to eat. We kill pests. The issue comes down to the definition of what is a human being? Is an embryo a human being or not?

> jA fetus is a life

Yes, but so is an amoeba.

> a fetus is human this is medical fact.

No, it's not. Some will say it is a fact that a fetus is a human being, others would dispute this. That's why the issue remains controversial. It depends on what you believe. It seems that you believe a fetus is a human being. Others might consider a fetus a complex multicellular organism (and thus, sub-human).

And saying it is a fact is silly. Science has problems defining what "Life" is, and don't tell me this is just nonsense semantics, because that's what all issues come down to. Don't just say to me "life is life" and "a person is a person". If you're going to define what life or a human being is, please at least state some criteria instead of giving me a sentence of three words that is entirely circular. (I'm not venting this specifically at you, but this is what people have responded with before on the abortion issue).





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InvisibleKid
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
    #340296 - 06/14/01 01:50 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> The criminal has, and will most likely, do it again.

How can you assume that simply because a person has done one criminal act that they will do it again?

Example: Some people try marijuana (crime: possesion of marijuana) once.

Some people drink and drive once.

Some people get into a fist fight (assault) once.

etc. etc. etc.



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Offlinezetek
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #340484 - 06/14/01 09:12 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I look at it this way; What is it that makes us human and a chimpanzee not human? The difference is in the degree of development of our cerebral cortex. That is what sets us apart from all other animals. We know that the cerebral cortex of a "human" fetus doesn't wire up until the 3rd trimester; this is when it becomes "human."

As far as abortion/capital punishment/murder go, I have a problem with killing sentient beings.

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InvisibleKid
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #340587 - 06/14/01 01:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

So you define a human being based entirely on one aspect of development?

Also, some might consider a fetus not to be a separate organism. Some might view an abortion akin to cutting off a malignant limb.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #340721 - 06/14/01 04:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

****We know that the cerebral cortex of a "human" fetus doesn't wire up until the 3rd trimester****

This isn't always true. A friend of mine gave birth to a 6 month baby girl who was totally healthy, but weighed 2lbs 8 ounces. If you killed..er..aborted her at 5 months would that be considered murder? Or is this little person nothing in your eyes?


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Anonymous

Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #340776 - 06/14/01 05:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

What I can't understand is how it seems as though the pro-life camp is convinced than any pro-choicer is a salavating baby murderer; that all pro-choicers enjoy ripping fetuses from the womb.
Pro-choice is just that; having the option. So what's the difference in having a choice in abortion and a jury having a choice in sentencing a murderer? It's this: some people DO NOT consider a fetus a human or even a seperate life. Everyone can agree that a 33 year old is both human and alive. Murder is wrong. Capital punishment is murder. The life (I use the word loosely) of a fetus is open to the interpretation of the individual. They should have that choice.

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Offlinezetek
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #340806 - 06/14/01 06:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I'm just trying to provide a defining characteristic of what it is to be "human." A five-month old fetus can be viable and not yet have it's cerebral cortex wired up. Much of the debate on this subject flies around the definition of what "human" is. I'm providing a biological/anatomical definition based on factual differences/similarities between Homo sapiens and other primates. This might be too clinical for some people's tastes, but that's my opinion of how "human" should be defined.

As PeachMan said pro-choice is having the option. If there is going to be a cut-off date as to when a woman can still choose to have an abortion, I believe morally that it should be well before the embryo/fetus reaches this window of development.

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Anonymous

Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #340897 - 06/14/01 08:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Zetek... I agree with you on the cut off date. And your example of the cerebral cortex is a viable reason for the belief that fetuses are not human. Can you give a link to this info? I would like to see more.

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OfflineSolo
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #340920 - 06/14/01 09:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

>> a fetus is human this is medical fact.

<No, it's not. Some will say it is a fact that a fetus is a human <being, others would dispute this. That's why the issue <remains controversial. It depends on what you believe. It <seems that you believe a fetus is a human being. Others <might consider a fetus a complex multicellular organism (and <thus, sub-human).

Professionals making money arguing with each other will continue to dispute things for as long as it suits them financially. And by the way Kid you mis-quoted me, please be more respectful in the future. I said that a fetus is HUMAN
A human fetus is HUMAN. It is HUMAN. Period. You turned around and started using the term human being right below my quote. I object to that.

>And saying it is a fact is silly. Science has problems defining <what "Life" is,

Scientists would be out of work if they agreed on everything. There is a built in dynamic in science to dispute theory and promote your own.

<and don't tell me this is just nonsense
>semantics, because that's what all issues come down to.

For you maybe.

>Don't just say to me "life is life" and "a person is a person". If >you're going to define what life or a human being is, please >at least state some criteria instead of giving me a sentence <of three words that is entirely circular. (I'm not venting this <specifically at you, but this is what people have responded <with before on the abortion issue).


I defined life earlier in the abortion thread sir, use your scroller. IT took me two seconds to find the definition of life on an online dictionary. A fetus fits the criteria.



Edited by Solo on 06/14/01 09:48 PM.



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OfflineSolo
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #340923 - 06/14/01 09:40 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

We have no shortage of morons in this world who will make all sorts of outrageous claims for any number of reasons. Doesn't make it right.



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Offlinezetek
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #340948 - 06/14/01 10:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I read that years ago somewhere. I just did a search and found this review of the book I read it in:
http://www.amat.org.nz/Morowitz1.htm

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Offlinezetek
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Solo]
    #340960 - 06/14/01 10:37 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

"Professionals making money arguing with each other will continue to dispute things for as long as it suits them financially."
"Scientists would be out of work if they agreed on everything. There is a built in dynamic in science to dispute theory and promote your own."

Solo, you seem to be implying that people become scientists for the money and the glory. We get into for our love of learning about the world. I'm an amphibian biologist; if it were so financially rewarding everybody would be doing it. If I was interested in getting rich, I would have gone to med school.

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OfflineSolo
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #341072 - 06/15/01 01:24 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

"Professionals making money arguing with each other will continue to dispute things for as long as it suits them financially."
"Scientists would be out of work if they agreed on everything. There is a built in dynamic in science to dispute theory and promote your own."

Solo, you seem to be implying that people become scientists for the money and the glory. We get into for our love of learning about the world. I'm an amphibian biologist; if it were so financially rewarding everybody would be doing it. If I was interested in getting rich, I would have gone to med school.

My main point is that individuals who practice various types of science for a living will always continue to dispute the validity of others research for their own status. MY statement, by the way could just as easily apply to just about any profession.

FYI, as you probably know, there happens to still exist a 'flat earth society'. Do you know if a scientist belongs to the organization?



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Anonymous

Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #341099 - 06/15/01 01:49 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Appreciate the link, Zetek.

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OfflineKriz
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #341170 - 06/15/01 03:28 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

How can you assume that simply because a person has done one criminal act that they will do it again?




Very simple, statistically you are more likely to be imprisoned more then once then just once. The vast majority of people in prison are 'career criminals'. I understand that doesn't mean ALL ppl are, that's why I chose my words so carefully ('most likely').


Now, I understand these are still open to interpretation but I think this presents something to chew on.

life (l?f) n., pl. lives (l?vz). 1. Biology. a. The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism. b. The characteristic state or condition of a living organism. 2. Living organisms considered as a group. 3. A living being, especially a person. 4. The physical, mental, and spiritual experiences that constitute existence. 5.a. The interval of time between birth and death. b. The interval of time between one's birth and the present. c. A particular segment of one's life. d. The period from an occurrence until death. e. Slang. A sentence of imprisonment lasting till death. 6. The time for which something exists or functions. 7. A spiritual state regarded as a transcending of corporeal death. 8. An account of a person's life; a biography. 9. Human existence, relationships, or activity in general. 10.a. A manner of living. b. A specific, characteristic manner of existence. Used of inanimate objects. c. The activities and interests of a particular area or realm. 11.a. A source of vitality; an animating force. b. Liveliness or vitality; animation. 12.a. Something that actually exists regarded as a subject for an artist. b. Actual environment or reality; nature.

hu?man (hy??m?n) adj. 1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of human beings. 2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character that distinguish human beings from the lower animals. 3. Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with human beings. 4. Having the form of a human being. 5. Made up of human beings. --hu?man n. A human being; a person. --hu?man?hood? n. --hu?man?ness n.

Both from the american heritage dictionary.

Certainly a fetus fits both of those definations in one way or another. How anyone could debate that abortion is not killing atleast SOMETHING is absurd. On the same note, how anyone could debate that the fetus is something other then human (perhaps its a dog?) is equally absurd.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #341172 - 06/15/01 03:29 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

they should have aborted timothy mcveigh

madness never slows down, it only piles up.


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