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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was possible [Re: MisterKite]
    #2093750 -

MisterKite said:
Wow-those were some truly shocking numbers, stonedphucker.

Some prisons truly are that terrible, if not even more terrible here. I saw this play, The Exonerated, about people who were put on death row who were innocent, but then they were proven innocent and taken off anywhere from 6 to 25 years after(It was like 8 separate monologues). When I talked about having "Tight ass" carved into your ass cheek, that was an actual thing that happened to a man. Every single day for years he was ass raped by multiple men, and they would cut him up and carve things into his body. The scar is so deep though, that plastic surgery wouldn't even be able to cover it up, so he forever his to live with the traumas of prison when he didn't deserve to be there in the first place. It disgusts me.


This sounds quite hokey. Plastic surgery can fix almost anything. Also, as I've poined out before, keeping a person in an environment such as that is cruel and inhumane, and thus, illegal.


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was possible [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2093786 -

The majority of anti-capital punishment claims aren't "death is bad", it's "an innocent man could be executed". That is quite true. But, an innocent man could be sentanced to life in prison, so maybe we should abolish that as well?

that's not what my claim is. i don't think it's right to execute someone, even if their guilt is a 100% certainty.

If a person is 100% guilty, DNA evidence, or some other concrete evidence (videotape), and the crime is heinous enough, they should be executed.

why?

If every person is aware that the consequenecs of their action could lead to execution, then they are given the choice to persue those actions or not.

they already do have that choice, and no study has ever shown that the death penalty affects their decision.

The entire criminal justice system is set up so that society can get "revenge" on a person for the family of the hurt, or the hurt if they are still alive.

no it is not. it is set up to reduce the threat to society posed by criminals and to provide restitution, not retribution, for victims.

however, if criminals know that society will "strike back" if they attack 'us', then they won't commit the crimes. The majority of them, at least.

show me some proof that the real deterrent affect of the possibility of death penalty exceeds that of the possibilty of life without parole.

My instance in the above post has yet to be answered. If a man is certaintly guilty, forensic evidence, videotaped the crimes, confession, showed the cops where the bodies were, had murdered numerous people in heinous ways, and their was no possibility that he would ever stop being a threat to anyoen around him, would you support execution in that instance?

how can a man in shackles and bars be a theat to those around him?

the only time i would support a death sentence would be for high-profile killers who would present a risk to keep alive and incarcerated. high-level gang or terrorist leaders, for instance... keeping them alive and incarcerated would create the possibility that their comrades on the outside might take hostages or something and demand their release... if that were a possibility, i could see some justification for executing them... as long as their crimes were bad enough of course.

but for just some random killer... no, there is no good acheived by execution.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: MisterKite]
    #2093809 -

I'd rather die than spend my life in prison.

Really





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Mp3 of the month: Wild Things- Another Colored Ink Drawing (A.C.I.D.)


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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was possible [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2093813 -

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
retribution is not a legitimate purpose.


Try telling that to the family of a murder victim.


Ha! And you accuse of us liberals of thinking with our hearts instead of our heads. Pot-kettle-black.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: Learyfan]
    #2093819 -

Learyfan said:
I'd rather die than spend my life in prison.

Really


I agree. Now matter how well they may treat prisoners, it's no way to spend the rest of your life.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was possible [Re: ]
    #2093848 -

Preface: It's hard to reply to this when you use boldface instead of quote, if this comes out a bit odd-looking, it's because I'm trying to make it somewhat logical, and could possibly fail :smile:

I said:
If every person is aware that the consequenecs of their action could lead to execution, then they are given the choice to persue those actions or not.

Mush said:
they already do have that choice, and no study has ever shown that the death penalty affects their decision.

My reply: Well, that isn't proving the point. To prove that it's efficnency, you'd have to poll the people who WERE stopped as well, which is near impossible to do.  I'd also like to see that study, or the one that showed the opposite.


I said: The entire criminal justice system is set up so that society can get "revenge" on a person for the family of the hurt, or the hurt if they are still alive.


You replied:  no it is not. it is set up to reduce the threat to society posed by criminals and to provide restitution, not retribution, for victims.

Sorry, it's not.  The criminal justice system takes on the role of retribution from the family of the victim, or the victim themselves. This way, you don't have families out killing for revenge. They feel that the CJS has properly done the task of revenge. This isn't true in every case, nor for every crime. However, for murder, it is.

I said: however, if criminals know that society will "strike back" if they attack 'us', then they won't commit the crimes. The majority of them, at least.

You replied: show me some proof that the real deterrent affect of the possibility of death penalty exceeds that of the possibilty of life without parole.

My reply; It's just as impossible for either of us to prove it. I could state that back in the early days of America, their were less murders per capita and people wh odid murder were hung in the town square for all to see. This has so many variables in it, it doesn't "prove" anything. We'll have to agree that this isn't something that can be objectively proven.  Arab nations, with their punishment for theft being the dismemberment of the thief, have MUCH less theft than we do, tho.

I said: My instance in the above post has yet to be answered. If a man is certaintly guilty, forensic evidence, videotaped the crimes, confession, showed the cops where the bodies were, had murdered numerous people in heinous ways, and their was no possibility that he would ever stop being a threat to anyoen around him, would you support execution in that instance?

you replied: how can a man in shackles and bars be a theat to those around him?

The man could escape, he could be paroled, or he could be released by a politican such as Dukakis. How many of Dukakii's released prisoners commited more violent offenses? How many dead people did?


You said :the only time i would support a death sentence would be for high-profile killers who would present a risk to keep alive and incarcerated. high-level gang or terrorist leaders, for instance... keeping them alive and incarcerated would create the possibility that their comrades on the outside might take hostages or something and demand their release... if that were a possibility, i could see some justification for executing them... as long as their crimes were bad enough of course. but for just some random killer... no, there is no good acheived by execution.

Murder is murder. If a man kills 15 children, he deserves the worst punishment we can think of, and do while still being in accordance with the ban on "cruel and inhumane" punishments.  Thus, lethal injection.


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was possible [Re: silversoul7]
    #2093850 -

Quote:
And you accuse of us liberals of thinking with our hearts instead of our heads


Nope. It's just an acceptence of human nature. Most people IMO, desire revenge when wronged.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was possible [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2093854 -

Addendum- Do you think that a man who is in shackles and behind bars is more or less likely to escape and kill than man who was executed, examined, and buried? In NC or Virginia, I forget where, a number of men on death row actually managed to escape from prison. Fortunatly they didn't kill anyone, but do you want that risk to be present?


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was possible [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2093874 -

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
And you accuse of us liberals of thinking with our hearts instead of our heads


Nope. It's just an acceptence of human nature. Most people IMO, desire revenge when wronged.


Most people desire to be rich, too. That doesn't mean they're automatically entitled to a million dollars. Many families would desire to see that person tortured as well, but that doesn't mean we should allow cruel and unusual punishment in this country.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was possible [Re: silversoul7]
    #2093903 -

I didn't say anyone was automatically entitled to anything. It was merely an observation.

Tell you what..... tomorrow kick a dozen people in the shin, let us know how many kick you back. Purely in the interest of science of course.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was possible [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2093937 -

The results of that experiment would be irrelevant. Of course most would kick me back, but that doesn't make it right. The proper course of action would be to restrain me from kicking anyone else.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was possible [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2093951 -

Well, that isn't proving the point. To prove that it's efficnency, you'd have to poll the people who WERE stopped as well, which is near impossible to do. I'd also like to see that study, or the one that showed the opposite.

sorry, but until a study can show conclusively (and to date none have) that the death penalty is an effective crime deterrent, it is flawed argumentation to use the deterrence argument.

Sorry, it's not. The criminal justice system takes on the role of retribution from the family of the victim, or the victim themselves. This way, you don't have families out killing for revenge. They feel that the CJS has properly done the task of revenge. This isn't true in every case, nor for every crime. However, for murder, it is.

no it is not. simple revenge is not an ethical use of force. the purpose of the justice system is to limit the risk criminals pose to society and to possibly provide for restitution for victims. the difference between this and revenge is that in the case of revenge, there is nothing gained by anyone. there is no rational reason for it, and it is not an ethical use of force. if punishment and revenge were the purposes of the system, then there would be an argument for such practices as beating and mutilating convicts... all in the course of lawfully prescribed revenge of course...no, these practices do no good for anyone but are only for punishment and revenge.

The man could escape, he could be paroled, or he could be released by a politican such as Dukakis. How many of Dukakii's released prisoners commited more violent offenses? How many dead people did?

my argument is life in prison. stick to refuting that lest you wind up burning down a straw man.

you've got a point with escapes. the technology exists however to build prisons which are virtually inescapable. there is a very, very slight risk... and this risk is the only valid point for you to be arguing behind.

Murder is murder. If a man kills 15 children, he deserves the worst punishment we can think of

again... this isn't about what someone "deserves"... the only people who "deserve" something are the loved ones of the people killed, and killing the said killer gives them nothing besides revenge.

your argument mostly revolves around the idea of revenge...

either show me how revenge is an ethically acceptable use of force or show me how putting people to death decreases the risk and cost of violent killers to society.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was possible [Re: silversoul7]
    #2093971 -

Sorry. If someone kicked you hard enough you'd soon learn not to kick and perhaps some who watched would realize there's a price to pay for ones actions.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: ]
    #2094016 -

mushmaster writes:

there is no morality in retribution.

Yeah there is. It is immoral not to retaliate against those who initiate force.

the death penalty, if it were proven to be a deterrent to crime, might have a case for it, but the fact is that it is not a deterrent....

Incorrect. The death penalty is a deterrent. We just have no way of knowing how much of a deterrent it is, since we have no way of knowing how many murders were aborted when the would-be murderer thinks about the possible consequences. It's not as if they file a police report each time...

Frustrated husband at front desk of cop shop -- "Yeah, officer, I was going to kill my wife the other night. But then I figured I might end up being executed, so I changed my mind. Just thought I should let you know."

Desk sergeant -- "Uh huh." *makes checkmark in ledger* "Next!"

If you think the death penalty is not a deterrent, ask yourself if the distribution of murders committed by day of the week would change if the law were altered so that murders committed on a Sunday, Tuesday, and Friday were punishable by death and those committed on the other days of the week were punishable by life imprisonment.

pinky


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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was possible [Re: ]
    #2094027 -

mushmaster said:
that's not what my claim is. i don't think it's right to execute someone, even if their guilt is a 100% certainty.

the only time i would support a death sentence would be for high-profile killers who would present a risk to keep alive and incarcerated. high-level gang or terrorist leaders, for instance... keeping them alive and incarcerated would create the possibility that their comrades on the outside might take hostages or something and demand their release... if that were a possibility, i could see some justification for executing them... as long as their crimes were bad enough of course.



Statements that vastly contradict themselves make it quite hard to discuss a final conclusive point with anyone. Which one is it?


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: Phred]
    #2094038 -

We just need to make it so that if a person who is executed is found to be guilty, then they judge and jury of the case have to be executed.

Wouldn't that be fair?


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2094049 -

Continuning on that plane of logic, would the same judge/jury be sentanced to life in prison, had they made that mistake?


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: Phred]
    #2094054 -

pinksharkmark said:
mushmaster writes:

there is no morality in retribution.

Yeah there is. It is immoral not to retaliate against those who initiate force.


Please do explain. I'm interested in hearing how retaliation(rather than defense) is an acceptable use of force.

Quote:
the death penalty, if it were proven to be a deterrent to crime, might have a case for it, but the fact is that it is not a deterrent....

Incorrect. The death penalty is a deterrent. We just have no way of knowing how much of a deterrent it is, since we have no way of knowing how many murders were aborted when the would-be murderer thinks about the possible consequences. It's not as if they file a police report each time...


I think the question here is: Is it any more effective as a deterrent than life without parole? And if so, it it enough of a deterrent to justify such a barbaric practice?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2094071 -

No, the innocent party should be freed from jail, and given $50,000 for every year or part thereof that they spent in jail.

Dead people can't be resurrected. Imprisioned people can be freed.


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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: silversoul7]
    #2094080 -

Execution is not barbaric. Execution GUARANTEES that the person who was a menace to society, will not re-offend. we have no idea of knowing how many people either sentance has deterred from commiting a specific crime, but we can be totally sure that a person who is executed will not kill again. Totally 100% sure.


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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General Interest > Political Discussion
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