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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2094118 -

Quote:
Execution GUARANTEES that the person who was a menace to society, will not re-offend.


First of all, this does not make it any less barbaric. Also, barring the possibility of jailbreak, which rarely happens, the same could be said of life without parole.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: Phred]
    #2094124 -

what i'm arguing here is that revenge and retribution are not justifiable uses of force.

minimizing threat of escapes and the threat of further crimes commited while in prison, and also making use of the possible deterrent value of the death penalty, are all possible arguing points in favor of it. revenge for the sake of revenge is not.

Edited by mushmaster (11/11/03 08:31 PM)

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2094203 -

Baby_Hitler said:
We just need to make it so that if a person who is executed is found to be guilty, then they judge and jury of the case have to be executed.

Wouldn't that be fair?


I'm guessing you meant "innocent".


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2094215 -

Never argue politics while stoned.


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: silversoul7]
    #2094325 -

silversoul7 said:
Quote:
Execution GUARANTEES that the person who was a menace to society, will not re-offend.


First of all, this does not make it any less barbaric. Also, barring the possibility of jailbreak, which rarely happens, the same could be said of life without parole.


No offense friend, but I said "guaranteed". "rarely happens" and "guaranteed" are far removed. I don't think that it is barbaric, far from it. A last meal is given, the convict is given a chance to say their last words, to have religious mentorship at the time, and to have a painless (usually) execution. How many of their victims were granted such amenities?


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2094370 -

I also don't think that the "revenge" is a negative aspect of the death penalty. The family of the victim(s) know that the man that hurt them went through the terrifying ordeal of facing his death, albeit a painless one. Society has punished someone who's crimes are so horrible that our laws prevent us from giving them a suiting punishment. These people that commit these crimes deserve the harshest punishment we can think of. The only reason, and I say this partly in jest here, that I could be against the death penalty is if they made a special jail for all convicted murderers, dropped food in from above, never had to have one person come into actual physical contact with these people. They would recieve no medical aide, no assistance in any manner. Then they could just tear each other apart.

This, however, would be quite unConstitutional.


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2094463 -

enimatpyrt said:
silversoul7 said:
Quote:
Execution GUARANTEES that the person who was a menace to society, will not re-offend.


First of all, this does not make it any less barbaric. Also, barring the possibility of jailbreak, which rarely happens, the same could be said of life without parole.


No offense friend, but I said "guaranteed". "rarely happens" and "guaranteed" are far removed.


True, but when you think about it, the likelihood of a prisoner escaping from prison and then killing again is less likely than that of an innocent man being executed, so you end up with less loss of innocent life if you abolish the death penalty.

Quote:
I don't think that it is barbaric, far from it. A last meal is given, the convict is given a chance to say their last words, to have religious mentorship at the time, and to have a painless (usually) execution. How many of their victims were granted such amenities?


It is still government-sanctioned killing, and it is barbaric for a so-called "civilized" society to sink to such a level.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2094490 -

What pisses me off most about this post is the narrow-mindedness of both sideds of the argument.

Everyone has been arguing the whole death vs. life for murders, as if that is the only solution, because that is what we have been taught all our lives is the solution to the problem.

First of all, I think the best argument the Supreme Court could ever argue is the question, "Does the US government have the right to take the lives of it's citizens?" Everyone would jump to the conclusion yes because what the hell are you thinking, they already have. But what people don't realize is that if the government has this power, then what is to stop them from killing old people, fetuses, or criminals, or how about the average joe, just because the government deems that it has the right to do so?

You may say, well, it depends on the situation, and that isn't relevant, but deep at the heart of the issue it is. Also, as far as the death penalty goes, why does it only apply to an individual regular citizen? Why does Joe have to go to prison for life or die for killing one person, when corporations that make decisions that kill hundreds of people only have to pay a fine, and why is the fine usually less or nonexistant if it happens to a poor 3rd world country person? Wouldn't things change quick in America if the whole company board is charged with murdered and hung?

How about our president? He sends off hundreds of thousands of soldiers to kill thousands of people. Shouldn't he be given the same treatment he has dealt out? You may argue that it was a "just cause" and like it or not war is considered the only time for justifiable murder in all countries, but I thought murder was only justified in "defense"?

Finally, what about the whole, you killed, so your life is over, and even if you do live your going to suffer for the rest of your life. This makes no sense. There are murders living amoung you now, as only 60% of murders ever result in an arrest. They may never kill again, and may be your best friend, teacher, employee, but everyone seems to be so eager to severely punish.

Prison does not rehabilitate people at all in America, don't delude yourself. Prison's only goal is to put people on layaway, and even after they supposedly pay their debt to society, they are forever stigmatized by it when applying for a job. No one has any faith in people anymore, I know that it seems idealistic, but America definiteally lacks compassion, and would rather just ruin people's lives than try to rehabilitate them. It's a totally vicious cycle, and it doesn't suprise me that even our so called "rehabilitated" inmates find themselves in jail again. I know that many people argue that all prisoners are lazy, don't want to help themselves, and for those cases, fine let them stay in prison. I don't know what the solution is, but people usually don't kill people for no reason, unless they're psychos.

It seems the only way to become a good member of society again is to become a Jesus worshipper and to praise how his love got you through prison and he conveniently forgave you of all your sins. Actually, I don't even want to start this argument, as it already has been done to death.

Well, I know it's kind of rambling but those are a few points to get off my chest. I know I'm going to be branded a peace loving idealistic out of touch with reality hippy pussy, but hey some of the things I said are true, I like others don't know how to make an idealistic utopia and make these things work in real life, but if people would stop looking at issues the same old way, maybe more discussion would come of the issues and we could reach a clear concensus or an effective alternative.

I think I'm going to start my own religion, I think I'll call it Miloism. I'll start working on my teachings now, and maybe I'll post them later to attract converts.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: silversoul7]
    #2094502 -

Thats subjective, we really can't boil every argument down to subjective opinion. Or, if we can, we have to realie that it is an issue that needs to be voted upon. If it's subjective (such as a presidency / political position), then the majority is right. you can subjectivly think that the majority is wrong, but thats just your owb subjective opinion.

do I win the award for using the word "subjective" the most in any post? :smile:


Also, no innocent person would be sentanced to death. Not only are juries required to convict a person, they'd be required to look at all o the evidence and assert that it is "clearly guilty".  DNA evidence, etc. I'd be all for legislation that requires another "level" of guilt for the death penalty to be assessed.  Their would be certain key elements of assessing absolute guilt, or the sort of guilt that assures that teh death penalty can be given, OR the subjective opinion of the jury on the horrific nature of the crimes.  If a criminal was seen by15 people, DNA mixed, videotape, confession, lead prosecutors to the bodies that were buried uner the floorboards in his basement, that would be enough to assure ourselves of his guilt.  Thus, he would be executed.


Edit: Your assumption about the nmber of innocent men executed and the number of escapees is wrong on two counts. First you can't tell how many TOTAL executed people have been innocent, versus how many would have escaped. And if an escapee kills 50 people, then thats more than a 1:1 ratio.


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

Edited by enimatpyrt (11/11/03 10:05 PM)

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2094524 -

Quote:
Also, no innocent person would be sentanced to death. Not only are juries required to convict a person, they'd be required to look at all o the evidence and assert that it is "clearly guilty". DNA evidence, etc. I'd be all for legislation that requires another "level" of guilt for the death penalty to be assessed. Their would be certain key elements of assessing absolute guilt, or the sort of guilt that assures that teh death penalty can be given, OR the subjective opinion of the jury on the horrific nature of the crimes. If a criminal was seen by15 people, DNA mixed, videotape, confession, lead prosecutors to the bodies that were buried uner the floorboards in his basement, that would be enough to assure ourselves of his guilt. Thus, he would be executed.


You're talking in terms of the hypothetical but the death penalty is a reality, and in this reality, innocent people ARE executed. This is an undisputed fact.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: silversoul7]
    #2094537 -

Then less innocent people, and more guilty people need to be executed.


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2094547 -

Gee, how long did it take ya to figure that one out? Now figure out a way to do that, smart guy.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: ]
    #2094566 -

mushmaster writes:

what i'm arguing here is that revenge and retribution are not justifiable uses of force.


Not to quibble, but so far you are not arguing any such thing. You are asserting it baldly as if it is self evident. It is far from self evident.

What comments do you have on my "alternate days of the week" thought experiment?

pinky


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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: biglo]
    #2094605 -

biglo writes:

You may say, well, it depends on the situation, and that isn't relevant, but deep at the heart of the issue it is.

Of course it depends on the situation. The situations under which a person may be executed are very narrowly limited and well-defined. The number of these situations has not increased over time -- in fact the reverse is true.

Why does Joe have to go to prison for life or die for killing one person, when corporations that make decisions that kill hundreds of people only have to pay a fine...

And an example of such decisions would be....?

How about our president? He sends off hundreds of thousands of soldiers to kill thousands of people. Shouldn't he be given the same treatment he has dealt out?

He has the constitutional power to send them. Note that he had the backing of Congress.

Prison's only goal is to put people on layaway, and even after they supposedly pay their debt to society, they are forever stigmatized by it when applying for a job.

Actions have consequences.

pinky


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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: biglo]
    #2094610 -

biglo said:
Everyone has been arguing the whole death vs. life for murders, as if that is the only solution, because that is what we have been taught all our lives is the solution to the problem.



I think that the best course of action here is much like it is for abortion. We should curtail the behavior and the acceptance of the behavior that leads to the outcome. A person that commits an especially heinous crime should be removed from society permanently. Hard to do without killing or isolating (jailing) them. Lets see if you mention any other possible solutions.

Quote:
First of all, I think the best argument the Supreme Court could ever argue is the question, "Does the US government have the right to take the lives of it's citizens?" Everyone would jump to the conclusion yes because what the hell are you thinking, they already have. But what people don't realize is that if the government has this power, then what is to stop them from killing old people, fetuses, or criminals, or how about the average joe, just because the government deems that it has the right to do so?



Well, the armed citizenry, mainly. This possibility is so far-reached that it's hard to bring up a logical answer for it. If the state did start executing people en masse, they'd be overthrown. I can't think of any mroe answers that might be realistic. Checks and balancs. Guilty people get executed.

Quote:
You may say, well, it depends on the situation, and that isn't relevant, but deep at the heart of the issue it is.



I see.

Quote:
Also, as far as the death penalty goes, why does it only apply to an individual regular citizen? Why does Joe have to go to prison for life or die for killing one person, when corporations that make decisions that kill hundreds of people only have to pay a fine, and why is the fine usually less or nonexistant if it happens to a poor 3rd world country person? Wouldn't things change quick in America if the whole company board is charged with murdered and hung?



If a company did actions that intentionally lead to deaths of people, with malice aforethought, not every single member of that company could be complicit in the actions. If one member of a company had been using company employees to murder people, they should all ( that were involved) face the death penalty

Quote:
How about our president? He sends off hundreds of thousands of soldiers to kill thousands of people. Shouldn't he be given the same treatment he has dealt out? You may argue that it was a "just cause" and like it or not war is considered the only time for justifiable murder in all countries, but I thought murder was only justified in "defense"?


Do you see a difference in a President sending men off to war who volunteered to join a force that was controlled by him, and acknowledged, voluntarily, that it was their duty, and a man breaking into womens houses and strangling them? Killing people in a war just isn't considered murder,unless it is done intentionally. Sloabdon Milosevich intentionally harmed innocents, allegedly, in his war, and he was tried for it. How many Nazis were hung at Nuremburg? A president is given the legal power to send forces into a nation to war for (x) days (I think it's 60), without Congressional approval. The obvious difference is that the soldiers volunteer to be in the service, at least for now.

Quote:
Finally, what about the whole, you killed, so your life is over, and even if you do live your going to suffer for the rest of your life. This makes no sense. There are murders living amoung you now, as only 60% of murders ever result in an arrest. They may never kill again, and may be your best friend, teacher, employee, but everyone seems to be so eager to severely punish.



Are you possibly suggesting that these people go unpunished? Their are murderERs among you now that are killing over and over again. Maybe your neighbor Mr. Hes Such A Nice Guy, is chopping bodies up in his basement. This paragraph is entirely devoid of intellectual merit. They may never kill again, but if their "one time" was your relative or friend, you might think differently about just allowing them to walk around free.

Quote:
Prison does not rehabilitate people at all in America, don't delude yourself. Prison's only goal is to put people on layaway, and even after they supposedly pay their debt to society, they are forever stigmatized by it when applying for a job.



I think that prisons should be geared toward rehabilitaion for people who commit non-violent crimes, punishment mixed with rehabilitation for those that have commited somewhat violent crimes (armed robbery, with no injuries or fatalities, for example), and just punishment and seclusion for those that have injured others.

Quote:
No one has any faith in people anymore, I know that it seems idealistic, but America definiteally lacks compassion, and would rather just ruin people's lives than try to rehabilitate them. It's a totally vicious cycle, and it doesn't suprise me that even our so called "rehabilitated" inmates find themselves in jail again. I know that many people argue that all prisoners are lazy, don't want to help themselves, and for those cases, fine let them stay in prison. I don't know what the solution is, but people usually don't kill people for no reason, unless they're psychos.



Since you don't form one idea with the opening sentanec of a paragraph, then expunge upon it through the remainder of the sentances there in, it's hard to really reply to them. Psychos kill people for a reason, because they are crazy. The fact that they kill for a "Reason' doesn't make it any less heinous. Lets say my reason is that I want to make a suit of human skin out of women, well great, I've got a reason, so now I shouldn't be pnished? Thats BS.

Quote:
It seems the only way to become a good member of society again is to become a Jesus worshipper and to praise how his love got you through prison and he conveniently forgave you of all your sins. Actually, I don't even want to start this argument, as it already has been done to death.



I don't belive in God, but if people in prison do find a way to better their lives via "god", good for them. God doesn't hjust do that for prisoners, he does it for everyone. Believing that you are forgiven can easily lead to starting anew. How has this argument, and what argument do you even mean, been done to death?


Quote:
Well, I know it's kind of rambling



Yes, it is.

Quote:
but those are a few points to get off my chest. I know I'm going to be branded a peace loving idealistic out of touch with reality hippy pussy, but hey some of the things I said are true, I like others don't know how to make an idealistic utopia and make these things work in real life, but if people would stop looking at issues the same old way, maybe more discussion would come of the issues and we could reach a clear concensus or an effective alternative.



What would some of those alternatives be?



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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2094943 -

General reply: You libertarians are always saying how you don't trust the government to work properly, yet you trust them with the power to decide who lives and who dies?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: silversoul7]
    #2094978 -

I'm not a libertarian. I don't know why you are lashing outwith hostlility, lets keep it somewhate civil in here. The FEDERAL government isn't deciding, it's just allowing it. The court system, usualy on a local level, makes the decision about who to execute. More specificlaly, the jurors. Not some defunt "gubment in warshinton"


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: silversoul7]
    #2094996 -

silversoul7 said:
Gee, how long did it take ya to figure that one out? Now figure out a way to do that, smart guy.


Ok, well, using my example from earlier, if a person is obvously guilty. If their blood is on the knife handle, their DNA from defense/scratch marks under the victims fingernails, 15 people saw them do it, it was videotaped by the criminal, he confessed to it, then he showed prosecutors the bodies of 15 people he'd killed and stored under his floorboards. THAT is guilty enough. Now, if you think that that person should be executed, you aren't against the death penalty, you just want t obe SURE that they are guilty or innocent, which I do as well, that is why a sentance of death would require specific types of proof to be handed down.


"smart guy" seems a bit unnecessary...


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2095065 -

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/Articles/Pataki.htm

A snippet from this, a letter by Gov Pataki of NY when he reinstated the death penalty. Stats are at the link, this struck me tho...
Quote:
Arthur Shawcross (left) was paroled after serving 15 years for the brutal rape and murder of two children in upstate New York. In a subsequent 21 month killing spree, he took 11 more lives before being caught. Serial killer Nathaniel White triggered this outburst from the mother of one of his victims: "I have to go to the cemetery to see my daughter. Nathaniel White's mother goes to jail to see him and I don't think it's fair." With the death penalty reinstated in New York, such ruthless killers will face execution, rather than being released from prison for good behavior.



Had he been executed, 11 more people would be alive. It's just that simple.



"If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."

John McAdams - Marquette University/Department of Political Science, on deterrence


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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Re: Death Penalty-Did you know such a lack of sense was poss [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2095088 -

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DPIC.htm

The Death Penalty Information Center (DPIC) Innocence List (?Innocence: Freed from Death Row?) is frequently cited as support for the claim that 102 innocent prisoners have been released from Death Rows across the nation.[2] This list is uncritically accepted as definitive. However, an examination of the premises and sources of the List raises serious questions about whether many of the allegedly innocent prisoners named on the List are actually innocent at all.

Analysis of the cases on the List suggests that the List exaggerates the number of inaccurate convictions. For many of its cases, the List jumps to conclusions and misstates the implications of what has happened in the various cases that it cites as involving ?actually innocent? defendants. The DPIC ?falsely exonerates? many of the former Death Row members on its List and misleads the public about the frequency of wrongful convictions in terms of appraising the current capital punishment system in this country.

In fact, it is arguable that at least 68 of the 102 defendants on the List should not be on the List at all?leaving only 34 released defendants with claims of actual innocence?less than ? of 1% of the 6,930 defendants sentenced to death between 1973 and 2000.




read on...


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

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General Interest > Political Discussion
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