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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty * 1
    #2365021 - 02/21/04 06:25 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I started to address this issue in the posting about Nader, but I'd like to make it a bit more in depth.

How is it that a person can be against the execution of a convicted murderer in a humane fashion as prescribed by the Constitution, yet be for the extremely violent and horrific method of executing an entirely innocent fetus?

What do you use to assess the level of blame on either of the parties (the convicted murder or the entirely innocent fetus)? Why does a convicted criminal get treated better than an innocent fetus? How can that possibly be right?

I'd like to say that I'm actually not entirely for death penalty or against abortion, I just want to see what people say about this. I'm sure that in libby-la-la-land (where overthrowing a tyrannical despot is a bad thing) their is some logic for loving murderers and hating fetii, but I just can't seem to grasp it.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow] * 1
    #2365036 - 02/21/04 06:28 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Abortion isn't a punishment. It's an emergency procedure.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7] * 1
    #2365047 - 02/21/04 06:33 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Abortion isn't a punishment. It's an emergency procedure.




Ah, yes, we just covered this in medical school. It treats Slutticus-legs-spreadicus. Right? *rolls eyes* It's not the victims fault that some whacko murdered them, it's the conscious decision of the murderer. It's not the fetus' fault that their mom is a slut, it's the conscious desicion of the slut. If it was rape or incest, or if their is an emergency condition, then abortion should be allowed.

Also, thanks for, as you usually do for me, giving me more ammunition. You won't allow death as a punishment, but you'll allow it as a birth control measure? How twisted your values are . . .

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Anonymous

Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow] * 1
    #2365060 - 02/21/04 06:37 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

are you opposed to abortion at any point in the pregnancy?

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow] * 1
    #2365061 - 02/21/04 06:37 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I'm against giving the government the authority to kill. In the case of an abortion, it's the mother's decision, not the government's. It's a matter of who's making the decision.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7] * 1
    #2365076 - 02/21/04 06:40 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I'm against giving the government the authority to kill. In the case of an abortion, it's the mother's decision, not the government's. It's a matter of who's making the decision.





People confuse the ABILITY (not the right) to choose something with the moral rightness of it. I have the "choice" of wether or not I want to take my rifles to the top of a tower and start picking people off, but it still doesn't make it legal to do so. IF you are against giving the government the authority to kill (I suppose you'd have to be against all wars then too, great idea!), why do you think that that same entity that you don't trust enough to kill people should have the right to dole that power out to others? The US government, the strongest and best government in the world, can't execute someone, but a 13 year old girl can?

You keep coming off as more and more logical, and you've sure proven that "libbies think with emotions" thing wrong! Kudos *insert sarcasm here*


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow] * 1
    #2365085 - 02/21/04 06:43 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Keep the ad hominem attacks coming. Maybe it'll actually accomplish something someday.

Anyway, people should not have the power to kill other people. However, a mother should have the power to kill her own fetus, which cannot survive outside her own body, and therefore is not a person, but a parasite.


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow] * 1
    #2365090 - 02/21/04 06:44 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

who are you to judge women who have abortions
as sluts?

your overwhelming ignorance and bias taint any
reasonable argument you may have buried in
that cloudy recess of yours.

judge not lest ye be judged.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7] * 1
    #2365094 - 02/21/04 06:45 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

:-)

so the people shouldn't have the right to decide to execute someone who will be living in prison, sucking money from us? sounds like a parasite to me! :-)


Notice how I keep turning your arguments arond on you, it's because you are wrong and I'm right :-)


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OnlineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow] * 1
    #2365103 - 02/21/04 06:46 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

You won't be a virgin forever.


























Just kidding, you really will be.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow] * 1
    #2365111 - 02/21/04 06:48 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

apparently you aren't aware that it costs
more to execute than to keep a person
in jail for life.

so which is it?

the moral concern with execution or the
financial realities surrounding it that bother
you the most?


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: afoaf] * 1
    #2365130 - 02/21/04 06:53 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
apparently you aren't aware that it costs
more to execute than to keep a person
in jail for life.




Two trials, 15 feet of rope (one time expense) and the lumber for a gallows are certaintly not more expensive than having a person live in jail for their entire life. Odd how it's so expensive for a capital punishment case, but the poor mino's aren't getting adaqute legal representation, you'd think it would be much cheaper?
Quote:


so which is it?




Revamp the system so that executions happen within 1 year of the FIRST trial, that they are public so they can serve as a deterrant, and lower the cost of prison's by releasing all non-violent drug 'offenders'.
Quote:


the moral concern with execution or the
financial realities surrounding it that bother
you the most?



If justice costs money, so be it. I'm sure that it would be better to hang the guilty rather than having them escape and commit more crimes, or risk having a Dukakis come into power and set them all free so they can be the rehabilitated citizens that jail made them into (read, so they can reoffend)

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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow] * 1
    #2365138 - 02/21/04 06:55 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not exactly a 'libbie' as you may have noticed, but I'm against both. Taking a human life is just wrong. The death penalty should be abolished-period. As for abortions, I think they should only be permitted is in the case of rape, incest, the fetus being horribly malformed, or the mother's life is in imminent danger.

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow] * 1
    #2365155 - 02/21/04 06:57 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

what about all the people railroaded and wrongly
convicted by the system.

with a one year limit, they'd probably be executed
before justice caught up with them.

what then?


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: afoaf] * 1
    #2365163 - 02/21/04 06:59 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
what about all the people railroaded and wrongly
convicted by the system.

with a one year limit, they'd probably be executed
before justice caught up with them.

what then?




*shrug* I'd guess that a pro-abortion person would say "Gosh, I couldn't care less if a person who hadn't commited a crime recieves a gruesome death, so fuck 'em". Right?

Most murders now involve some thread of forensic evidence which allows the person to be "totally" guilty. I'm certaintly not in favor of executing innocent people (hence my aversion to the abortion-as-birth-control theory), but the guilty should pay.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow] * 1
    #2365193 - 02/21/04 07:14 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
so the people shouldn't have the right to decide to execute someone who will be living in prison, sucking money from us? sounds like a parasite to me! :-)



Nope. He can survive just fine outside of the prison cell.

Quote:

Notice how I keep turning your arguments arond on you, it's because you are wrong and I'm right :-)



You wish.


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OfflineTrip
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow] * 1
    #2365206 - 02/21/04 07:20 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

here's how i look at it, let's face it a lot of parents today can barely take care of themselves much less a child. if someone doent want to accept the responsibulity of raising a child they shouldnt have to. why should they put their plans of the future on hold? im one to beleive that no one has the right to take the life of another(hence my arguement against the death penalty), but we're talking about here isnt a life, its a glob of devoloping tissue.

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InvisibleEdame
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow] * 1
    #2365214 - 02/21/04 07:21 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Revamp the system so that executions happen within 1 year of the FIRST trial, that they are public so they can serve as a deterrant...

Public executions, just like the Taliban right?  I guess it's ok as long as the US has a good education system and no religious extremeists influencing government policy. :smirk:


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7] * 1
    #2365228 - 02/21/04 07:28 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Keep the ad hominem attacks coming. Maybe it'll actually accomplish something someday.

Anyway, people should not have the power to kill other people. However, a mother should have the power to kill her own fetus, which cannot survive outside her own body, and therefore is not a person, but a parasite.


infants cannot survive without the care of their mothers or the direct aid of others, as well as most mentally retarded people, paralyzed people, I guess its okay to kill them???


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow] * 1
    #2365230 - 02/21/04 07:29 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I think the death penalty should be used in some circumstances, I think personally I would rather be put to death, then to live my life in prison, and I read that it is more expensive to kill someone than to keep them in jail for life, this is completely untrue, its the appeals process which costs more, not killing them.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2365231 - 02/21/04 07:29 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Read what I said. A fetus cannot survive outside of the mother's body.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2365234 - 02/21/04 07:31 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blacksabbathrulz said:
I think the death penalty should be used in some circumstances, I think personally I would rather be put to death, then to live my life in prison, and I read that it is more expensive to kill someone than to keep them in jail for life, this is completely untrue, its the appeals process which costs more, not killing them.



So are you saying you would get rid of the appeals process? Wouldn't this lead to more innocent people getting executed?


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365252 - 02/21/04 07:40 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Right, but its still one lifeform dependant on another


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365257 - 02/21/04 07:42 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Nope I dont want to get rid of it, I was just pointing out the fact that it is what cost more, I think the decision to either be put to death or live life in prison should be the choice of the person who is being charged.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2365265 - 02/21/04 07:45 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blacksabbathrulz said:
Right, but its still one lifeform dependant on another



Nope. The prisoner could most likely survive just fine on his own. He is only dependent so far as the state forces him to be dependent.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365282 - 02/21/04 07:51 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I was referring to mentally handicapped people, infants, and paralyzed people being dependant on others to survive.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2365289 - 02/21/04 07:54 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Parasite: An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

This goes beyond mere dependence, and refers specifically to the body of the host organism.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365304 - 02/21/04 07:59 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

if the child is not hurting the mother in any way why should it be aborted, parasites are usually thought of as hurting the host, whereas a child would be more of a symbiote.


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Offlinedomite
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2365307 - 02/21/04 08:01 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

getting back to mushmaster's point, are the people who are against abortion against abortion at any point in the pregnancy?

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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: domite]
    #2365312 - 02/21/04 08:03 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

RIght, partial birth abortion is legal, and the child could no longer be considered a parasite if thats what you want to think of it as, yet its constantly supported.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2365320 - 02/21/04 08:07 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blacksabbathrulz said:
if the child is not hurting the mother in any way why should it be aborted, parasites are usually thought of as hurting the host, whereas a child would be more of a symbiote.



Nope. In order for it to be a symbiotic relationship, the fetus would have to actually benefit the mother. Instead it only takes nutrients from the mother without giving anything back.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2365327 - 02/21/04 08:08 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blacksabbathrulz said:
RIght, partial birth abortion is legal, and the child could no longer be considered a parasite if thats what you want to think of it as, yet its constantly supported.



No, it's not constantly supported. There are even many liberals, including myself, who are opposed to partial birth abortion except in cases where the mother's life is in danger.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365342 - 02/21/04 08:15 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

In symbiosis, ONE(or 2) of the members benifits from the relationship, in this case its commensalism, the child benifits, and the mother is not injured.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2365356 - 02/21/04 08:19 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Actually, the fetus takes some nutrients from the mother, thus requiring her to "eat for two." There are other organisms that do this as well, such as the tapeworm, a well-known parasite.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2365373 - 02/21/04 08:22 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

my thoughts:

abortion: only in the first trimester except in the case of grave danger to the health of the mother.

fetal development occurs much faster than many people are aware. i am not impressed by any of the arguments in support of allowing abortions after the first trimester. if you want an abortion, have it in the first 3 months. by the end of the first trimester, the fetus' brain is fully formed, it's got it's own blood type distinct from it's mother, and it can feel pain.

death penalty: i personally feel that it should be considered for premeditated murder and those with multiple convictions for serious violent crimes. should be left up to the states.

contrary to claims to the contrary, the death penalty is a deterrent. sparing the death penalty submits the public to a greater risk, and for what? to protect a person that has decided to take another's life? it should be an option for the residents of each state to decide if they wish to use.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365378 - 02/21/04 08:25 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

contrary to claims to the contrary, the death penalty is a deterrent.



Sources? I find this hard to believe, considering how much higher the murder rate is here in America than it is in other developed countries which have banned the death penalty. How do those countries deter murder?


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Anonymous

Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365386 - 02/21/04 08:28 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

if murdering someone on a sunday was made punishable by death, but doing it on any other day of the week was banned, don't you think there'd be statistically less murders commited on sundays than before?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365388 - 02/21/04 08:29 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Yes. Please answer my question.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365431 - 02/21/04 08:39 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Read what I said. A fetus cannot survive outside of the mother's body.




Sorry Silversoul. I have to diasagree. That doesn't make it any less human. As far as choices go, birth control is widely availiable and easy to obtain.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: Le_Canard]
    #2365459 - 02/21/04 08:44 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

It makes it pre-human. And the availability of birth control does not mean that we should throw out the last resort of abortion.


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Anonymous

Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365461 - 02/21/04 08:44 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

the murder rate is influenced by many factors. the deterrent effect of potential punishment for murder is only one. the fact that there are places with low murder rates and no death penalty does nothing but confirm that it is possible to have a low murder rate without using the death penalty. what it does not confirm is the idea that the death penalty has no deterrent value, or that citizens should be prevented from making use of that deterrent value if they vote to do so.

there are countries in the world where the murder rate is very high and there is no death penalty. think colombia and south africa.

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Anonymous

Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365467 - 02/21/04 08:45 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

It makes it pre-human.

until what point in a pregnancy do you think abortion is ok?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365477 - 02/21/04 08:47 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

There are basically two kinds of murder: crimes of passion(i.e. the OJ case) and pre-meditated. But you see, the thing about pre-meditated murder is that the perpetrator doesn't plan on getting caught, so he/she isn't even weighing in on the legal repercussions.


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365488 - 02/21/04 08:49 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

few people ever plan on getting caught, but they still weigh the legal repurcussion they would face if they did. if growing mushrooms was punishable by life in prison, i would stop doing it.

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365490 - 02/21/04 08:49 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
It makes it pre-human.

until what point in a pregnancy do you think abortion is ok?



I believe luvdemshrooms covered this before, and it's one of a handful of things on which I agree:

1st trimester: Any reason
2nd trimester: Rape, incest, or deformities
3rd trimester: Only to save the mother's life


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365511 - 02/21/04 08:54 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

2nd trimester: Rape, incest, or deformities

why should the fact that it was concieved by rape be a reason to kill a fetus which would otherwise be illegal to kill?

if the fetus has a right to life at that point, then it shouldn't matter how it was conceived. if it doesn't, then the criteria should be the same as the first trimester.

what constitutes a deformity?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365527 - 02/21/04 08:59 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

Because the mother cannot be held responsible for its conception, and therefore should not be required to continue carrying it.

And I will not venture to define "deformity." I will leave that to the medical professionals.


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2365540 - 02/21/04 09:01 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

I'm sure that in libby-la-la-land (where overthrowing a tyrannical despot is a bad thing)




if that were so..then we would all vote for bush...

nor do we believe that its ever necessary to drive nail through a foetuse's skull in order to save its mothers life...although that might not be such a bad idea..in cases where the foetus has been determined to be a genetic neocon...


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365561 - 02/21/04 09:05 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

Because the mother cannot be held responsible for its conception

that doesn't matter very much from the fetus' end of things. what matters is the stage of development at what point the fetus has a right to life. a three year old has a right to life. if a woman has a three-year old child which was concieved by rape, it doesn't make it ok for her to throw the kid in the street.

And I will not venture to define "deformity." I will leave that to the medical professionals.

give me an idea. how about missing an arm? blindness? severe mental retardation which would probably result in death in the first months of life?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365573 - 02/21/04 09:08 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

that doesn't matter very much from the fetus' end of things. what matters is the stage of development at what point the fetus has a right to life. a three year old has a right to life. if a woman has a three-year old child which was concieved by rape, it doesn't make it ok for her to throw the kid in the street.



A three-year-old can and does survive outside of the womb. Therefore it is not a part of the mother's body, and has a right to its own life.

Quote:

give me an idea. how about missing an arm? blindness? severe mental retardation which would probably result in death in the first months of life?



Possibly something along those lines, yes.


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365598 - 02/21/04 09:14 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

A three-year-old can and does survive outside of the womb. Therefore it is not a part of the mother's body, and has a right to its own life.

a fetus, after a certain point, really isn't a part of the mother's body either. it's got it's own blood type, it moves around on cues from it's own functioning brain, etc.

does a fetus not have a right to life until it can survive outside its mother's body?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365614 - 02/21/04 09:17 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

does a fetus not have a right to life until it can survive outside its mother's body?



yes


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365622 - 02/21/04 09:18 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

shouldn't abortion then be allowable, with no restrictions, at any point before a fetus can survive outside its mother's body?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365633 - 02/21/04 09:21 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

Good point. Yes.


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365644 - 02/21/04 09:22 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

must it be able to survive totally on its own outside the mother, or can it make use of modern medical technology like is used with premature babies?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365653 - 02/21/04 09:24 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

The medical technology.


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365693 - 02/21/04 09:33 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

i think that the rights of the fetus depend more on its stage of development than whether or not it can survive outside the womb. in 100 years, perhaps we will be able to grow a baby from a zygote completely outside of a mother. if that happens, that doesn't mean that abortion during the first 2 weeks of pregnancy should then be banned, does it? that doesn't mean that a 2 week old mass of cells would have rights which it doesn't have now, right?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2365760 - 02/21/04 09:52 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

I suppose you're right, but at least we can agree that abortions should be allowed during the first trimester.


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2365868 - 02/21/04 10:22 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

I dont really think talking a human life is nessisaraly a bad thing, it depends of the curcumstance.

Mushmaster: does the ability to feel pain warrant the right to live? Is it the only thing that warrents that right?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: domite]
    #2366290 - 02/21/04 11:45 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

Abortion

My understanding is that approximately 5% of all abortions are performed due to an occurrence of an emergency related to the mother's health, or because of rape or incest. 95% of the time, abortions are performed because birth control failed, or wasn't used at all.

In other words, abortion is mainly used as a measure of birth control. In further words, life is cheap.

Also, whether a fetus experiences pain depends on from whom you acquire your information. According to Planned Parenthood:

>>We know for sure that the embryo or fetus cannot perceive pain in the nearly 99 percent of all abortions that occur before the 20th week of pregnancy. It is even possible that a fetus is unable to perceive pain at any time during pregnancy. If, however, the ability to feel pain does develop before birth and consciousness, it is likely to happen only after the 28th week of pregnancy, when abortion is performed only for urgent medical reasons. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/ABORTION/chooseabort3.html

According to a website that appeared to be against abortions:

>>Summary of a presentation given by Dr. Paul Ranalli on "Pain, Fetal Development, and Partial-birth abortion" on June 27, 1997. (I personally attended this presentation). Related links are included below.

>>The fetus can feel pain at 20 weeks. This is probably a conservatively late estimate, but it is scientifically solid. Elements of the pain-conveying system (spino-thalamic system) begin to be assembled at 7 weeks; enough development has occurred by 12-14 weeks that some pain perception is likely, and continues to build through the second trimester. By 20 weeks, the spino- thalamic system is fully established and connected.

>>There are three different indicators providing evidence that the fetus feels pain.

1. Anatomical
- pain receptors spread over the body in stages: 8-16 weeks
- pain impulse connections in the spinal cord link up and reach the thalamus (the brain's reception center): 7-20 weeks (summarized by Anand, K.J.S., Atlanta)

2. Physiological/Hormonal
- fetuses withdraw from painful stimulation
- two types of stress hormones, normally released by adults subjected to pain, are released by adults subjected to pain, are releases in massive amounts by the fetus subjected to a needle puncture to draw a blood sample:

(a) from 19 weeks onward (N. Fisk; London, England)
(b) from 16 weeks onward (J. Partch; Kiel, Germany)

3. Behavioral
- withdraw from pain
- change in vital signs

>>A 20-30 week old fetus actually will feel more pain than an adult. The period between 20-30 weeks is a uniquely vulnerable time, since the pain system is fully established, yet the higher level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop. http://www.gargaro.com/fetalpain.html

Personally, I am against any type of abortion except where there is a danger to the mother's life, or in cases of rape or incest.

Death Penalty

It is more expensive to to sentence someone to death because of the cost to society for the trial and the appeals process.

From an article:

>>Radelet said the cost of executing a prisoner in Florida averages about $3.2 million, mostly in trial costs. Keeping that same person in prison for life costs only about $600,000, and the millions of dollars spent on executing prisoners could be put to much better use, he said. http://www.napa.ufl.edu/oldnews/death1.htm

Capital punishment also does not deter others from committing the same types of crimes. In the same article:

>>"Deterrence means that we execute people to send a message to others," Radelet said. "After a while, increases in the severity of punishment have decreasing incremental deterrent effect. So if you haven't deterred somebody by life, you re not going to deter them by death.

I prefer life in prison because I think that's a better punishment than killing someone. I'd rather watch the person suffer life behind bars as a result of taking the life of another.


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: Frog]
    #2367397 - 02/22/04 10:09 AM (20 years, 30 days ago)

great post.

good information.


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2367926 - 02/22/04 12:59 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

Abortion rules and you know it.

There's no such thing as death.





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    #2370165 - 02/22/04 10:53 PM (20 years, 29 days ago)


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2370227 - 02/22/04 11:11 PM (20 years, 29 days ago)

"Unless he realizes his hatred of gays is seeded from the fact he's one of them and couldn't come to terms with it. Then he might start riding cocks. "

do you really belive this is true in most cases?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: Trip]
    #2370803 - 02/23/04 04:28 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Trip said:
here's how i look at it, let's face it a lot of parents today can barely take care of themselves much less a child. if someone doent want to accept the responsibulity of raising a child they shouldnt have to. why should they put their plans of the future on hold? im one to beleive that no one has the right to take the life of another(hence my arguement against the death penalty), but we're talking about here isnt a life, its a glob of devoloping tissue.




Ah, I see. Interesting that Scott Peterson is being charged with murder for killing this glob of developing tissue. Interesting that every state deems that if you kill a pregnant mother, causing the life of the parasitic nasty dirty fetii inside of her, it's murder. How odd is that? It's just a fetus! Geez.

So, for everyone who is saying that a "fetus isn't a life", let me ask you this. If I walk up to a lady who is pregnant and stick a knife in her stomach, killing the fetus, should I be charged just with the aggravated assault (or whatever specific charge the particular state has for htat), or should I be charged with that, AND murder?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2370805 - 02/23/04 04:30 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

contrary to claims to the contrary, the death penalty is a deterrent.



Sources? I find this hard to believe, considering how much higher the murder rate is here in America than it is in other developed countries which have banned the death penalty. How do those countries deter murder?




How, just how in the fuck, do you PROVE how good it is at deterring a crime? The FBI doesn't, to my knowledge, keep a running talley of murders not commited.

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2370808 - 02/23/04 04:34 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
A three-year-old can and does survive outside of the womb. Therefore it is not a part of the mother's body, and has a right to its own life.




Your definition of "parasite" is only slightly changed when dealing with a young child. The mother now has to work to pay for the child's food, education etc. Without this attention, the child would die. The mother recieves nothing tangible (the joy of being a mother and contirbuting to the continuation of the species would apply even to a pregnant mother, and it's not really a tangible contribution). So, using your own argument, why can't this parasite be killed?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2370823 - 02/23/04 04:50 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
How, just how in the fuck, do you PROVE how good it is at deterring a crime? The FBI doesn't, to my knowledge, keep a running talley of murders not commited.




well techinichly, thats the census. :tongue:

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2370989 - 02/23/04 07:22 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

contrary to claims to the contrary, the death penalty is a deterrent.



Sources? I find this hard to believe, considering how much higher the murder rate is here in America than it is in other developed countries which have banned the death penalty. How do those countries deter murder?




How, just how in the fuck, do you PROVE how good it is at deterring a crime? The FBI doesn't, to my knowledge, keep a running talley of murders not commited.



I didn't ask for proof. I asked for sources(i.e. evidence). Since you can't prove how good it is at deterring crime, then that would seem to favor neither side of this issue.


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2370990 - 02/23/04 07:23 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
A three-year-old can and does survive outside of the womb. Therefore it is not a part of the mother's body, and has a right to its own life.




Your definition of "parasite" is only slightly changed when dealing with a young child. The mother now has to work to pay for the child's food, education etc. Without this attention, the child would die. The mother recieves nothing tangible (the joy of being a mother and contirbuting to the continuation of the species would apply even to a pregnant mother, and it's not really a tangible contribution). So, using your own argument, why can't this parasite be killed?



Biologically speaking, a young infant is not a parasite, but a fetus could be classified as one. Also, the infant is not being taken care of against the mother's will.


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2371015 - 02/23/04 07:47 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

par?a?site ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-st)
n.
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.



The only difference between a fetus and achild is where it exists. A child meets the above mentioned definition, except it lives outside of it's host.

Are you saying that abortion is right because a woman doesnt' want to have a parasite inside of her? Hardly, women say that they want the abortion because htey can't support the child AFTER IT IS BORN. If their is a medical complication where the child is hurting the mother, she should have the right, but VERY VERY few women use this as their justification. "I can't afford a child and have lots of money and time to spend with my friends" doesn't mean "I don't want this parasite living in me".

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2371036 - 02/23/04 08:03 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
par?a?site ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-st)
n.
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.



The only difference between a fetus and achild is where it exists. A child meets the above mentioned definition, except it lives outside of it's host.



That's more than just a trivial difference.

Quote:

Are you saying that abortion is right because a woman doesnt' want to have a parasite inside of her? Hardly, women say that they want the abortion because htey can't support the child AFTER IT IS BORN. If their is a medical complication where the child is hurting the mother, she should have the right, but VERY VERY few women use this as their justification. "I can't afford a child and have lots of money and time to spend with my friends" doesn't mean "I don't want this parasite living in me".



No I'm not saying that abortion is right because the fetus is a parasite. I'm not even saying abortion is right, though I would consider it a necessary evil. While I don't have much sympathy for women who get abortions instead of using birth control, there are many cases in which they do use birth control and it fails. It's not all that uncommon for a condom to rip. I think they should have abortion available to them as an option in such a scenario(if they can't get the morning after pill within enough time). Now that I think about it, tho, I'm inclined to agree with mushmaster's position. If they're going to get an abortion, they should get it during the first trimester, unless there are issues with the health of either the mother or the fetus.


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2371047 - 02/23/04 08:12 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
That's more than just a trivial difference.




Ok, I'll say that a born child is probably more "parasitic" to the parents then when it's in the mother still.
Quote:



No I'm not saying that abortion is right because the fetus is a parasite. I'm not even saying abortion is right, though I would consider it a necessary evil. While I don't have much sympathy for women who get abortions instead of using birth control, there are many cases in which they do use birth control and it fails. It's not all that uncommon for a condom to rip. I think they should have abortion available to them as an option in such a scenario(if they can't get the morning after pill within enough time). Now that I think about it, tho, I'm inclined to agree with mushmaster's position. If they're going to get an abortion, they should get it during the first trimester, unless there are issues with the health of either the mother or the fetus.




My only point was that your parasite argument isn't a reason for abortions. I'd say that probably no woman has ever said "I don't want to have to eat more food while I'm pregnant, letsk ill this fucker". They think of the burden a child will be after it's born, and decide to kill it before that happens. The thing is, after a child is born, their are numerous otehr options.


To use a thought of yours, wouldn't it be best to do everything possible before taking an innocent life? Sort of like negotiation before war, right? Wouldn't it be better to have the federal government and the babybutchers do everything possible to save the child, usualy through adoption, rather than option 1 being to chop it up, slurp it out with the wet-dry vac, and toss it out the back door?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2371066 - 02/23/04 08:25 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
That's more than just a trivial difference.




Ok, I'll say that a born child is probably more "parasitic" to the parents then when it's in the mother still.



Why? It doesn't meet the biological criteria for a parasite.

Quote:

Quote:


No I'm not saying that abortion is right because the fetus is a parasite. I'm not even saying abortion is right, though I would consider it a necessary evil. While I don't have much sympathy for women who get abortions instead of using birth control, there are many cases in which they do use birth control and it fails. It's not all that uncommon for a condom to rip. I think they should have abortion available to them as an option in such a scenario(if they can't get the morning after pill within enough time). Now that I think about it, tho, I'm inclined to agree with mushmaster's position. If they're going to get an abortion, they should get it during the first trimester, unless there are issues with the health of either the mother or the fetus.




My only point was that your parasite argument isn't a reason for abortions. I'd say that probably no woman has ever said "I don't want to have to eat more food while I'm pregnant, letsk ill this fucker". They think of the burden a child will be after it's born, and decide to kill it before that happens. The thing is, after a child is born, their are numerous otehr options.



I wasn't arguing that it's the reason women get abortions. I was saying that it's the reason why killing a fetus isn't as bad as killing a fully-developed human. Also, I realize that there are other options after a baby is born, such as adoption, but I can only imagine how painful childbirth must be. Maybe if I was a woman who had given birth I might be able to dismiss it as not being sufficient reason for getting an abortion, but being a man, I don't dare venture to trivialize the pain of childbirth. And considering that for a certain period of time a fetus can't feel pain, I would think that aborting the fetus at that stage would be significantly less painful for both mother and fetus than giving birth would.

Quote:

To use a thought of yours, wouldn't it be best to do everything possible before taking an innocent life? Sort of like negotiation before war, right? Wouldn't it be better to have the federal government and the babybutchers do everything possible to save the child, usualy through adoption, rather than option 1 being to chop it up, slurp it out with the wet-dry vac, and toss it out the back door?



Sure, but I believe that decision should be left up to the mother, not to the government.


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2371179 - 02/23/04 09:09 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Why?  It doesn't meet the biological criteria for a parasite.




After birth the fetus requires more, and contributes the same 'nothing' to the parent.
Quote:


I wasn't arguing that it's the reason women get abortions.  I was saying that it's the reason why killing a fetus isn't as bad as killing a fully-developed human.




If I could show that a fully-developed human that I killed was a burden on society financially, would that make it morally correct?  Please say yes to this so I can implement my new WIC programs :smile:
Quote:


Sure, but I believe that decision should be left up to the mother, not to the government.




Lets say that I was a single mother.  My child of two years was becoming a great burden to me financially,I can barely afford my 2 pack of cigarettes a day habit on the minusicule amount of money I make since I couldn't go to college.  I think that the least painful thing for both of us would be for me to kill my child in a painless manner.  That way I wouldn't have the great pain of being financially challenged (which lasts much longer than childbirth) and my child wouldn't have the prolonged pain of growing up poor in America.  Do I, or do I not, have the right? Obviously I don't, but why not? The child is a burden, it can't function/survive on it's own, and the method of killing would make his life and mine less painful.

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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2371188 - 02/23/04 09:10 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

I've heard that a girl losing her virginity is also quite painful, maybe if she waited to experience that pain until she was in a position to deal with the ramifications, the problem wouldn't exist to begin with.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2371337 - 02/23/04 09:50 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Why?  It doesn't meet the biological criteria for a parasite.




After birth the fetus requires more, and contributes the same 'nothing' to the parent.



But the mother voluntarily provides for the baby after birth, rather than having it suck up nutrients from her body.  You seriously don't see the difference here?

Quote:

Quote:


I wasn't arguing that it's the reason women get abortions.  I was saying that it's the reason why killing a fetus isn't as bad as killing a fully-developed human.




If I could show that a fully-developed human that I killed was a burden on society financially, would that make it morally correct?  Please say yes to this so I can implement my new WIC programs :smile:



No.  The fully-developed human is not a parasite in the biological sense of the word as he/she does not get his/her nutrients from a host organism's body.  Furthermore, a fully-developed human being has a fully-developed, fully-functional brain and central nervous system, and can feel pain.

Quote:

Quote:


Sure, but I believe that decision should be left up to the mother, not to the government.




Lets say that I was a single mother.  My child of two years was becoming a great burden to me financially,I can barely afford my 2 pack of cigarettes a day habit on the minusicule amount of money I make since I couldn't go to college.  I think that the least painful thing for both of us would be for me to kill my child in a painless manner.  That way I wouldn't have the great pain of being financially challenged (which lasts much longer than childbirth) and my child wouldn't have the prolonged pain of growing up poor in America.  Do I, or do I not, have the right? Obviously I don't, but why not? The child is a burden, it can't function/survive on it's own, and the method of killing would make his life and mine less painful.



Once the child is out of the womb, it has legal rights.  Also, if you've already gone through labor and given birth, I would think adoption would make more sense.  That said, however, there are many third-world countries in which infanticide is quite common, and as disgusting as that might seem to us, I can understand it, given the conditions those people live in.  I don't think there is really any excuse for infanticide in a developed country like the U.S., where you could give the child up for adoption.  I know what you're going to say, so let me address your next comment before you say it:  Once the child is already born, there's no more labor pains to worry about, nor any health risks to the mother.  Therefore, in such a situation, giving the child up for adoption would be the only logical answer.  In the case of an abortion, on the other hand, the fetus, if it is in the first trimester, most likely does not have a fully-functional brain and central nervous system, and it is also completely dependent specifically on the mother(no woman can adopt the fetus and carry it in her own womb).  If the mother decides not to abort but rather to carry it and give birth, then give it up for adoption, she will have to face the excruciating pain of childbirth along with the possible health risks involved in it(some women still die during childbirth).  Therefore, while she could decide to give it up for adoption, it might be less risky to get an abortion(if done professionally, not with a coat-hanger like they did when abortion was illegal).


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2371343 - 02/23/04 09:54 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
I've heard that a girl losing her virginity is also quite painful, maybe if she waited to experience that pain until she was in a position to deal with the ramifications, the problem wouldn't exist to begin with.



I've heard that it can also be quite pleasant for the girl. And as I've pointed out, birth control sometimes fails, and when that happens, you need to find a backup plan. Now, I've already said that I don't have much sympathy for women who don't use birth control in the first place and just get abortions because they're irresponsible, but considering the fact that it'd be hard to determine which ones were irresponsible and which ones were just victims of unfortunate mishaps, I'd just as soon keep the same options open to all women.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2371352 - 02/23/04 10:01 AM (20 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
I've heard that a girl losing her virginity is also quite painful...



It was painful for me, so I'm sure the girls had some issues with it as well - but not enough to stop.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2375771 - 02/25/04 10:27 AM (20 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:

I've heard that it can also be quite pleasant for the girl. And as I've pointed out, birth control sometimes fails, and when that happens, you need to find a backup plan. Now, I've already said that I don't have much sympathy for women who don't use birth control in the first place and just get abortions because they're irresponsible, but considering the fact that it'd be hard to determine which ones were irresponsible and which ones were just victims of unfortunate mishaps, I'd just as soon keep the same options open to all women.




My personal feelings on abortion are analagous to yours in the Retialition thread. An abortion shouldn't be the first choice, nor should it be advertised as a first choice. IF a woman is in a situation that she doesn't want to be in, the "health clinics"*ahem* should first try to convince her to give it up for adoption. I think I've previously mentioned two couples I know that have tried for years to adopt a child. One of them finally found a girl and ended up paying her 10K$ + all of her medical bills and guaranteed that the child would have college tuititon money availble in an escrow account, the other couple ended up paying 40K$ to the mother for her child. The point is that these children aren't "unwanted". The majority of people would say that an adoption is a much better alternative to an abortion, so this would lead to a more generally preferred outcome. If the girl still insists on having an abortion, well, so be it I guess. I think that it's better for a girl to have an abortion than to be forced to have the child (tho I still place the 'blame' on the girl/father) than to bring an unwanted child into an overpopulated world. I'd say that most teenage girls that are frightend of having a child, as well as 20-35 year old women who may be working on a career or in college, would gladly take a giant financial boost from a couple that wants to adopt. In non-medical emergency or rape situations, I would think that most people who are pro-abortion would agree that it is better to have the child adopted.

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