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OfflineKriz
old hand

Registered: 10/12/99
Posts: 231
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
McVeigh/Death Penalty.
    #338092 - 06/11/01 01:08 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

How do you all feel about this one imparticular? I don't mean to debate the death penalty specifically (i plan on starting another thread involving mcveigh, on an entirely different subject), but more on this particular case. For those in other countries I'm not sure how much your media covers it, but here its all over. Basically Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist, extremely right wing (he claimed to be a libertarian if I recall), and he drove a van full of explosives up to a building in Oklahoma City, in 1996, lit the fuse and took off. The explosion killed a 168 and injured many many more. Today (june 11th) he is planned to be killed by lethal injection. That's very basic background on it, but how do you feel about it?

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)

Edited by Kriz on 06/11/01 06:17 AM.



--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #338169 - 06/11/01 03:19 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

he did state that he was a libertarian but libertarians don't go around killing innocent people. I wish they would inject him with ligter fluid and lite the coward up! Thank, God, One less dumbfuck on this Earth.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineKAL
Stranger
Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 13
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #338199 - 06/11/01 04:26 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I am morally, ethically and logically against the death penalty.

But if ever there was one person not worthy of living on this earth, it was McVeigh... and perhaps George Dubyah as well . . . but that's a whole different topic altogether. . .



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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #338293 - 06/11/01 06:41 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I really don't care what he did. I seem to be pretty numb to the ideas of death and murder, so I really am baffled when I see the survivors and victim's families all upset and hoping for Tim to die.

But I think time gets it easy because he has two assurances that most people do not have.

1. Time of death explicity spelled out for him.
2. Assurance that death will not be painful.



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Anonymous

Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kid]
    #338432 - 06/12/01 02:07 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I'm utterly against the death penalty in the first place, and this case is no different.
1) Executing McVeigh will not bring back the loved ones lost
2) If the surviving victims need to see McVeigh die to gain 'closure' or whatever, they have some serious issues themselves. Death is what hurt them in the first place. Just as two wrongs don't make a right, two deaths aren't going to make anything any better. Seeking revenge is a sorry mentality/motivation to have.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: ]
    #338529 - 06/12/01 03:59 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I don't see it as revenge...i see it as a punishment that was known by Mcveigh ahead of time. i say too bad.

If that was my wife or mother i would enjoy seeing Mcveigh suffer. Only he didn't suffer...i would of set the coward on fire myself....

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePotSmokinHippie
Pothead

Registered: 04/07/01
Posts: 223
Loc: New york
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: ]
    #338530 - 06/12/01 04:00 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I generally agree with you. Pumping the dude with potassium chloride isn't gonna solve a whole lot. I think we should reform the justice system. Make prisons a living hell, no death penalty. Only rapists and killers and bad shit like that go there. That's the only way, make them suffer. Death is the easy way out.

I wish I had a Kryptonite cross, because then I could keep both Dracula AND Superman away.


--------------------
"assumption is the mother of all fuckup" - me


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Offlineaugustwest
addict
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 55
Last seen: 21 years, 1 month
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: ]
    #338598 - 06/12/01 05:14 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

) If the surviving victims need to see McVeigh die to gain 'closure' or whatever, they have some serious issues themselves. ......
usualy I am kind
this is the stupidest thing I have ever read.
has anyone ever blown up a loved one of yours?
having a child blown up by some asshole who thinks the government is evil just might cause a few "issues"
the truth is alot of surviving victims didnt want him executed.
He killed 168 people. what is an o.k. way to punish this guy?
Life in prison? I think life in general population would be ok. but they dont put mcveigh's in general population because even criminals dont stand for people killing kids. they put him in a cozy maximum security prison to be cared for around the clock.
I agree with the death penalty exept I think it is too painless and quick.
all people who do not agree with the death penalty should not do capital crimes.




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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: augustwest]
    #338720 - 06/12/01 07:26 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> they put him in a cozy maximum security prison to be cared for around the clock.

Yeah, how cozy it is to live in a little cell without access to women, and to have no freedom for the rest of your life. People don't like jail. Jail sucks. You are lonely in prison. It is psychological torture enough. I don't know how you get off saying that prison is "cozy".

> what is an o.k. way to punish this guy?

I don't believe in punishment. It doesn't do anything. It's not an effective deterent. Criminal justice should not be about punishment. It should be about protecting society. That's why McVeigh needed to be imprisoned. You can't let him walk around, obviously. Why not keep him alive and try to learn something about the psychology of mass murderers? The motives and theories behind the militia movements? Maybe if you learned something from McVeigh you could prevent something like this from happening again. Maybe you could gain some insight into how to help society become better integrated.

Punishment is silly. People don't do things that they think are wrong. Rehabilitation (or call it by some other name, resocialization, whatever) is the key. Convince offenders that what they've done is wrong. That way they might be able to "repay their debt to society." Punishment does nothing but make another person suffer. It's a form of revenge. Justice in itself is a silly notion. The damage is already done.



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OfflinePlanet Asia
addict
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 328
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kid]
    #338830 - 06/12/01 10:11 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

so what do u suppose they should do PeachMan, set him free?



--------------------
answers, theyre never out of question



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OfflineKriz
old hand

Registered: 10/12/99
Posts: 231
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kid]
    #338837 - 06/12/01 10:18 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

Criminal justice should not be about punishment. It should be about protecting society




I agree, and if you have read any of what he's said, (pick up the book "American Terrorist" its very good), you would agree that he has no intention of changing. Keep him locked in a prison cell forever? Why? Why bother keeping someone alive in a cage? If you make a mistake typing a paper, do you highlight it and make a note to disregard it, or do you just hit delete?

In reply to:

You can't let him walk around, obviously. Why not keep him alive and try to learn something about the psychology of mass murderers? The motives and theories behind the militia movements? Maybe if you learned something from McVeigh you could prevent something like this from happening again




We DO understand his mind. Perhaps a twisted mass murder who cut apart his victims and masturbated over their corpses deserves study but not some violent terrorist. He acted on his belief that the gov't was corrupt (heh, how insane huh?) and he felt the only way to deal with the problem was to commit an act of terrorism to get his message out. He accomplished his goal, and would no doubt do it again the second he got his chance. He's your standard terrorist. Nothing special, nothing worth studying.

In reply to:

Justice in itself is a silly notion. The damage is already done.




Justice is silly? I hope you never vote ever, let alone hold political office.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #338845 - 06/12/01 10:42 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

He totally needs to be get rid of. We are out of Australias though to send our criminals too. So we have to put them away. Lethal injection is the kindest way to do it.

So I'm comfortable with it. But reading coverage about it, I was disturbed. It was so clinical. But they at least let him die with dignity.

But so much kinder than the guillotene. Anyone here speak French?

Visit http://www.kiosek.com/dostoevsky/library/karamazov.txt and do a search (_Edit, Find) for Chapter 4. There is an interesting take on capitol punishment back in the day. Let me know if I got the wrong chapter. The author is wordy though don't expect him to get straight to the point.

Edited by djfrog on 06/12/01 03:44 AM.



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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: djfrog]
    #338853 - 06/12/01 10:55 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sorry, there are three chapter fours. Do a search for "Rebellion", it is the third chapter 4.



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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: djfrog]
    #338854 - 06/12/01 10:56 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Oh never mind which Chapter 4 it is, just search for Rebellion.



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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Hmmmm... [Re: ]
    #339005 - 06/12/01 06:01 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

PeachMan says:

"I'm utterly against the death penalty in the first place, and this case is no different. "

Why? This man KNOWINGLY gave up his rights to be treated as a human being the moment that bomb exploded. As a threat to the lives of other humans, he should -- wait, make that MUST -- be removed.

In the case of a rabid dog, the dog is destroyed. In the case of a rabid human, the human should be destroyed. There is no pragmatic difference between the two. It has nothing to do with revenge at all. We don't shoot mad dogs because we are pissed off at them and want to take revenge on them, we shoot them because they are a threat to humans.

pinky



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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Planet Asia]
    #339021 - 06/12/01 06:35 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> so what do u suppose they should do PeachMan, set him free?

I will refer you back to the post to which you are replying:

"Criminal justice should not be about punishment. It should be about protecting society. That's why McVeigh needed to be imprisoned. You can't let him walk around, obviously. "

Maybe you missed that part?

In short, the answer was, imprisonment.




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InvisibleKid
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Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #339022 - 06/12/01 06:40 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> He's your standard terrorist.

Timothy McVeigh is NOT your standard terrorist. Most terrorists come from other countries, other ethnic backgrounds. This was a boy who grew up in your own backyard, another "all American" that decided to kill people.

> Justice is silly? I hope you never vote ever

Too late, I vote in every election.

I hope you learn how to reply in full instead of half-assed answers.



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InvisibleKid
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Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Phred]
    #339023 - 06/12/01 06:44 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> This man KNOWINGLY gave up his rights to be treated as a human being the moment that bomb exploded.

Maybe legally...

> As a threat to the lives of other humans, he should -- wait, make that MUST -- be removed.

Okay, so lock him up. Put him in solitary for the rest of his life.

> In the case of a rabid dog, the dog is destroyed. In the case of a rabid human, the human should be destroyed.

Timothy McVeigh did not have rabies.

> It has nothing to do with revenge at all.

Punishing adults is either about revenge or about misguided efforts to correct behaviour.

> We don't shoot mad dogs because we are pissed off at them and want to take revenge on them, we shoot them because they are a threat to humans.

McVeigh was not insane.

He could have been left in solitary.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #339055 - 06/12/01 08:04 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Are there any absolutes in your life? If so could you tell us?

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339070 - 06/12/01 08:29 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> Are there any absolutes in your life? If so could you tell us?

Objection, your Honor! Would consel please explain where this line of questioning is going?



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #339103 - 06/12/01 09:13 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"Objection, your Honor! Would consel please explain where this line of questioning is going"

My question was asked because i want to know where your BASE is. Everyone has a base....except moderates, and they're wishy washy. If i can know your absolutes then we can dispurse with your "everything is subjective" problem.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339110 - 06/12/01 09:42 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not even saying that everything is subjective.

My base is that I admit that there is the possibility that anything can be true and anything can be false. All I know is that I know nothing but I don't even know if I know that nor if I know that, ad infintium. I'm not certain if I can trust my senses. I could be wrong or I could be right about everything or somewhere in between but I'm not certain or maybe I am certain but I'm not certain about that.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #339122 - 06/12/01 10:28 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"My base is that I admit that there is the possibility that anything can be true and anything can be false"

Therefore you have no absolutes.....Hence subjectivism. A base is something where your beliefs tend to radiate from. Is your base a liquid base that forms and changes per topic? Or is your base absolute?....i tend to think it is liquid if not in gas form ;)

"All I know is that I know nothing but I don't even know if I know that nor if I know that, ad infintium"

More subjectivism....I'm having a hard time seeing your base.

"I could be wrong or I could be right about everything or somewhere in between but I'm not certain or maybe I am certain but I'm not certain about that."

Then how do you know if your convictions can be backed by fact if you don't know that they are real or not? Furthermore how do you expect others that you are trying to covince that what your saying is true? If you can't then what is the point of debate?


"but I'm not certain or maybe I am certain but I'm not certain about that."

UHHHH...ok...Am i wrong for being certain about my stances on specific subjects? or is it just YOU that are wrong if your certain?

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339258 - 06/13/01 02:04 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> Then how do you know if your convictions can be backed by fact if you don't know that they are real or not?

I don't; that's why they're not my convictions. They're temporarily adopted convictions if you want to call them that.

> Furthermore how do you expect others that you are trying to covince that what your saying is true?

Arguing by fact is not necessarily about obtaining Truth.

> If you can't then what is the point of debate?

Debate is interesting and opens me to new points of view.



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Anonymous

Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339259 - 06/13/01 02:06 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

For those of you calling for McVeigh's death, let me ask you why.

If it is as a punishment, I think both you and I would agree that life in solitary (no boyfriends, drugs, weights, etc. 1hr/week outside of his cell) is a much harsher punishment than execution (especially in McVeigh's case- being a 'martyr' or whatever)

A deterent? If someone wants/plans on killing someone, they are not going to way the pros and cons. Someone with enough hatred to kill isn't going to care what happens after the act is done.

It obviously can't be for rehabilitation, thus what is the reason? Revenge. Society and the victims (who wanted Tim McVeigh executed) were full of rage and vengence at what he had done. Weren't rage and vengence what caused the bombing?

If you hold that life is sacred (as you must to believe that murder is wrong) and that no one should choose whether another lives or dies, then execution is no more than state-sanctioned murder.

To Invertigo, Augustwest: I'm not saying that it wouldn't be a difficult thing to go thru, were one of your loved ones killed so mercilessly. I am not saying that there wouldn't be issues to work through. What I am saying is that if you would need the killer of your loved one to die in order to feel right with yourself again, you have deeper issues than the loss of a loved one. Just as two wrongs don't make a right, two deaths shouldn't help anyone heal. Closure is something you, as an individual, must gain; it isn't simply a bloodlust for revenge.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun


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OfflineKriz
old hand

Registered: 10/12/99
Posts: 231
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: ]
    #339701 - 06/13/01 12:05 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Those arguing against it seem to be missing the point that most are trying to put. It was not about revenge. It was about ending the problem. Perhaps if I had a brain tumor I could just take bottle after bottle of asprin to dull the pain? That would do as much for me as keeping mcveigh alive would do for anyone. He was a violent misguided person who had very strong beliefs. The idea that he would just stop and decide his cause was no longer worth fighting is ridiculous. He needed to be removed entirely from any possiblity of harming others. If you think an appropriate way to do this is to put him in a cell in some prison, allow me to ask you something. Why? Why keep him alive? Why feed him everyday? Why bother giving him medical assistence when he is sick? What's the point?

As for Kid. He IS a standard terrorist. How you could conclude that a terrorist who is raised in america is any different then one of any other nationality is beyond me. Perhaps a defination would help you.

ter?ror?ist (t?r??r-?st) n. 1. One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism. --ter?ror?ist adj. Of, relating to, or constituting terrorism. --ter?ror?is?tic adj.

ter?ror?ism (t?r??-r?z??m) n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

I am missing what separates him from others. He unlawfully used violence against people and property to intimate society and the gov't for political and idealogical reasons. Perhaps an addition to include upbringing, race, or place of birth is in order?

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #339761 - 06/13/01 03:03 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"I don't; that's why they're not my convictions. They're temporarily adopted convictions if you want to call them that."

Sounds pretty wishy washy if ya ask me. You have no convictions, no believes, no base. I can't even take you serious because you believe in nothing. You know what they say "if you believe in nothing you will believe anything".

"Arguing by fact is not necessarily about obtaining Truth"

No....truth is fact (no matter whether YOU believe it exist or not) if something is false then it isn't a fact....I hope they're not teaching you this in Canada.

"Debate is interesting and opens me to new points of view"

What does it matter if you don't believe anything you hear? In order to have a NEW point of view you have to have an old point of view.

I realize you don't want to admit it but your whole belief system is liquid and subjective. How can you deny that? But then again you don't believe in denying anything....now i'm confused................

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: ]
    #339774 - 06/13/01 03:24 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"If it is as a punishment, I think both you and I would agree that life in solitary (no boyfriends, drugs, weights, etc. 1hr/week outside of his cell) is a much harsher punishment than execution "

I actually would like your idea if there was a little torture in there. I don't want to pay a dime for this useless peice of shit. i say if we're not going to kill him work him extremely hard and use whips for my enjoyment :)

"A deterent? If someone wants/plans on killing someone, they are not going to way the pros and cons"

Who says it's a deterent? There are a lot of dipshits out there and now they know what will happen to them....it may deter one or two but the others, since they don't care, get their punishment in the form of torture...er the death penalty.

"It obviously can't be for rehabilitation" "Weren't rage and vengence what caused the bombing?"

I don't believe in rehabilitation for mass murderers, rapists, and child molesters. NO the rage is directed at the asshole who set off the bomb.

"If you hold that life is sacred (as you must to believe that murder is wrong) and that no one should choose whether another lives or dies, then execution is no more than state-sanctioned murder."

This is one of the oldest arguments to have to do with this subject. The funny thing is that a majority of the people who are against the death penalty are PRO DEATH (pro choice).

"What I am saying is that if you would need the killer of your loved one to die in order to feel right with yourself again, you have deeper issues than the loss of a loved one"

Yeah the deeper issue is that the loved one wants to see justice done. Justice in my mind should be the 'ol eye for an eye cliche' I believe if you kill the you shall be killed as a punishment....i don't see the problem. I guess i'm sick and tired of murderers, rapists, and child molesters (who can't be rehabilitated). getting off easy because their father spanked them or something. That is complete bullshit.

"Just as two wrongs don't make a right"

There was only one wrong here....and one punishment

"Closure is something you, as an individual, must gain; it isn't simply a bloodlust for revenge."

It's easy to say that in your shoes. I feel justice has been done ie: i feel closure


Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleBrownPastures
old hand

Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 968
Loc: here
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339777 - 06/13/01 03:25 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Your all missing the point. All of that which you have said is irrelivant. What we are doing here is exactly what the man wanted us to. He WANTED to die. He wanted the prison officials to wait after his death to tell the press he ate 2 pints of mint-chocolate-chip ice-cream. This is all fuel for his fire. I don't know if he ever imagined the enormity of it all. Were going to be writing chapters in history books about this piece of shit just like he wants us to. And that's what's wrong with the McVeigh Death Sentence.... I never post here , it's my first time... it seems like there are alot of smart people in these parts of town... peace

"slutguts" - auto59009
Drool Donkey Island

Edited by BrownPastures on 06/13/01 08:28 AM.



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Anonymous

Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339813 - 06/13/01 05:08 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"I actually would like your idea if there was a little torture in there. I don't want to pay a dime for this useless peice of shit. i say if we're not going to kill him work him extremely hard and use whips for my enjoyment :) "

This is what leads me to believe that your motivation is vengence and rage.

"Who says it's a deterent? There are a lot of dipshits out there and now they know what will happen to them....it may deter one or two but the others, since they don't care, get their punishment in the form of torture...er the death penalty"

The death penalty has been on the books (again) since the 76 when the Supreme Court reinstated it. The murder rate has risen since then. It hasn't worked as a deterent.

"NO the rage is directed at the asshole who set off the bomb. "

Once again, you admit your rage against McVeigh. His rage at the gov't's actions at Waco and R.R. is what caused the bombing. Why is your rage any different/better than his? Both resulted in the loss of human life(s).

"The funny thing is that a majority of the people who are against the death penalty are PRO DEATH (pro choice)."

I've heard this a million times. I may start another post and deal with this issue. Otherwise, it is not relevant.

"Yeah the deeper issue is that the loved one wants to see justice done"

Go to www.theonion.com Look at the first sidebar story. This pretty much somes it up.

"Justice in my mind should be the 'ol eye for an eye cliche' I believe if you kill the you shall be killed as a punishment"

Where to begin... number one, the Bible also says turn the other cheek, what of that? number two, our country, despite what right wing fundamentalist like to believe, was not founded under Christian ideology, so both sentiments are discarded by the law.
Justice is a farce. That is no reason to do anything as 'justice', and there is no such thing, in a practical sense. No one does ANYTHING if THEY don't feel it is justified. So who's ideal of justice wins out??
You shouldn't need to punish someone to feel better. You should be self-actuated enough to move on. Let karma do her work, or whatever.
As far as protecting the rest of us from McVeigh, trust me, if he is in his cell 23 hrs a day, he wont ever hurt any free person again.

So yet again... the reasons for capital punishment (or any sort of legal penalty)
-rehab
-punishment
-protection of society
-vengence

Capital punishment is not the optimal way to acheive any of the first three.... only the last remains as a reason...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: ]
    #339863 - 06/13/01 06:41 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"This is what leads me to believe that your motivation is vengence and rage"

Wrong...you view punishment as vengance and that i can't help you with. What's wrong with Rage? I'm sure you as i, were extremely angry when you heard the news as to what happened. I feel rage only because he got off easy.

"The death penalty has been on the books (again) since the 76 when the Supreme Court reinstated it. The murder rate has risen since then. It hasn't worked as a deterent"

First off, i never said it was a deterant. I agree it's not , with the exception of a few because there are a lot of stupid people out there that don't look at the consequences before they do things.

"the gov't's actions at Waco and R.R. is what caused the bombing"

So your justifing Tims actions? It wasn't tim it was the governments fault. If i shoot you with a gun because you did something i don't believe in and is against my moral fiber, are my actions justified? Or is it your fault? This is the classic argument where the accused blames it on his childhood...what a joke.

"I've heard this a million times. I may start another post and deal with this issue. Otherwise, it is not relevant."

You brought up the sactanty of life. How is it different? Life is Life....with the exception of one of them is a criminal. I'll look forward to your abortion'esque post.

"Go to www.theonion.com Look at the first sidebar story. This pretty much somes it up. "

From what i saw (if you take the onion seriously) That pretty much backs what i've been saying...they now have closure...what was your point concerning that article?

"the Bible also says turn the other cheek"

I wasn't using the bible as a reference. I know it's in there but that's not how i came up with this belief. But your use of the turn the other cheek phrase is totally irrelevant when concerning a criminal who is sentanced.

"despite what right wing fundamentalist like to believe, was not founded under Christian ideology"

It was more than you know....what fundamental was it based off of?.....and i'm a libertarian

"Justice is a farce. That is no reason to do anything as 'justice', and there is no such thing, in a practical sense. No one does ANYTHING if THEY don't feel it is justified. So who's ideal of justice wins out?? "

Justice isn'r a farce if it's run by fair and honest people. I realize we have about 5% honest judges.
No one does anything unless it's justified? Im their mind maybe but does that still make it right? If i kick your little sister in the head because i felt i was justified to do it, am i right?

"Let karma do her work"

Karma is a farce that is make believe. Karma is what people who don't have any control over themselves use to make themselves feel better.

"-rehab
-punishment
-protection of society
-vengence

Capital punishment is not the optimal way to acheive any of the first three.... only the last remains as a reason... "

I think your mistaken. Capital punishment will help protect society (which is why i love it sooooo much). It is the ultimate punishment since we are a country full of pussies, that aren't willing to treat inmates that cause this sort of damage to society, like they should.


Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339879 - 06/13/01 07:50 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> You brought up the sactanty of life.

He brought up the sanctity of HUMAN life. Some people don't see a fetus as human.

> This is the classic argument where the accused blames it on his childhood...what a joke.

They don't usually use it as an excuse as much as they use it as a personal circumstance which contributed to their actions. It doesn't remove a person from criminal responsibility; it lightens the punishment.

> Justice isn'r a farce if it's run by fair and honest people.

The way you feel about karma is the way I feel about "justice".

Here's why I don't like the concept of criminal justice:

Would you punish an animal for doing something that it normally wouldn't ? Humans can choose their actions yes, but punishment makes no sense to me. Protecting society from that person makes sense, but punishment, WTF is that about?



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #339890 - 06/13/01 08:08 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

***He brought up the sanctity of HUMAN life. Some people don't see a fetus as human***

And many others feel it is. That aside the point is still relevant.

***They don't usually use it as an excuse as much as they use it as a personal circumstance which contributed to their actions. It doesn't remove a person from criminal responsibility; it lightens the punishment. ***

Actually they do blame it on their past. Watch many of the trials that go on in the U.S. and you'll see what i'm talking about.

I don't think it should lighten their punishment...ie: I'm sad that your parents left you when you were little BUT, you killed 60 people so your going to spend the rest of your life in jail..or be executed.....that's what i would do if i was a judge.

***Would you punish an animal for doing something that it normally wouldn't ? Humans can choose their actions yes, but punishment makes no sense to me. Protecting society from that person makes sense, but punishment, WTF is that about?***

An animal is not a human..this is not relavent. If humans can choose their actions, why does punishment not make sense?...you'r all over the board on this one. Punishment can be anything from standing in the corner or being put to death. Punishment can also be a rehab tool. It can also be a penalty in a hockey game.....hell even animals learn this.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

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InvisibleKid
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339922 - 06/13/01 11:56 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> Actually they do blame it on their past. Watch many of the trials that go on in the U.S. and you'll see what i'm talking about.

The criminals themselves might try to blame it one their pasts but a good defense lawyer will simply include it as a part of personal/mitigating circumstances in order to lighten punishment.

Also, it depends on the circumstance. Obviously there is a difference between killing 60 people and flying into a rage and physically harming someone. There's such a thing as non-insane automatism which absolves someone of criminal responsibility whereby the person's psychological makeup caused him/her to commit a criminal act against their will (obviously this is not the case w/ McVeigh as he pre-meditated the murders).

> An animal is not a human..this is not relavent.

A human is an animal so I think it is relevant (a cat may not be a dog, but both are animals).

> If humans can choose their actions, why does punishment not make sense?...

The point was that animals can choose their actions too. Would you consider an animals actions criminal under certain circumstances? No, because an animal apparently is unaware of morality. However, a human being does not do something that they consider wrong. Anyway, morality is an abstract concept and I think it's quite invalid.

> Punishment can also be a rehab tool.

Punishment isn't a very good tool for rehabilitation because reprimanding someone for doing something they don't consider wrong would probably make them defiant. Rehabilitating the person would involve convincing them that what they have done is wrong and then having them "repay their debt" of their own free will.

And yes, punishment can be a rehab tool, but so could LSD psychotherapy ;-)

> hell even animals learn this.

Hitting or yelling at a dog or a cat for doing something it's not supposed to (eg// jumping up on the dinner table) will make it learn not to do that again. Standard Pavlov style conditioning. It a question of does it make sense to induce fear or pain upon a person or animal for doing something that they don't understand as wrong.

Obviously with an animal you can't teach them the abstract principles of morality, but with a human being, through rehabilitation, you can.




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Offlinejihead
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339956 - 06/14/01 01:10 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

in the end, the only reason we have the death penalty is because it is a quick fix, Amerikan style solution to a never-ending problem(sounds like another US policy aye?) think about what true solitary confinement means to a person for over a week. now think about 70 years. if youve ever seen/read shawshank redemption or the movie w/ kevin bacon, you know how intensely screwed up this turns a person, it is torture beyond comprehension by normal people. this is what we should be doing with our worst criminals, not ending their lives for the bemusment of the victims and murder-happy facists.
i actually watched a good deal of this on tv. b/c i was tired of typing and it was shown on every news channel for hours on end. all the victims family members who wanted to see it said the same thing about wanting to see him die so they wouldnt be hurt any more by his words, by his actions, etc. it made me sick. these people know the hurt caused by murder, why would they want to inflict the same pain on tims family? of course, innvert will make some statement about how they deserve it for his actions, etc. but as for me, it just doesnt make a whole lot of sense. if they would just stop making this man a celebrity and jumping at every opportunity to milk their 15 minutes of fame then tim would have faded into obscurity. the survivors that went to the gravesite or spoke out against the execution were the ones who got my sympathies. bloodlust isnt justified when terrorists do it, why should it be when it is cried for by midwestern facists and carried out by a corrupt system?



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OfflineKriz
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kriz]
    #340143 - 06/14/01 05:37 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

No body seemed to agknowledge any of what I said. The reason I feel capitol punishment is nessisary is simple. It prevents any possibility of further harming society. While, in theory, this can be acheived by locking someone away, why bother? Why keep him alive only to be kept in a cell, when you can remove him entirely?

Allow me to present you with a question. Is it wrong for me to see you walking down the street, grab you, throw you in my basement and lock you in for the rest of your life? Almost certainly it is. So why is it ok to do so to a murderer? Because they have done harm to others, and should be removed from the chance of doing it again. Sometimes these actions can be done to instill a fear into this criminal so that they don't do whatever it is that got them there again. Sometimes it serves as simple removal from others so they CAN"T commit these crimes for some duration of time. And sometimes, in the case of capitol punishment, it is done to permenantly remove this threat.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


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for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

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OfflineMOoKie
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Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #340256 - 06/14/01 08:00 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

He shouldn't have died simply because a lot of questions remain about the bombing. There's a much bigger story here, and Mcveigh is the scapegoat.

What's this Ryder truck doing in a military compound outside of OKC in early April, 1995? And why were screens concealing the entire place?



Go here to see the terra server image as compared to a picture taken of it: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/TRUCK/TERRA/terra.html


Five lines down in the text.


If he was a lone bomber, why is the OK. Highway Patrol reporting another bomb?

Why did the ATF know not to go to work that day?

You can go on and on with stuff like this.





--------------------
"If it ain't one thing, then it's the other. Any cause that crosses your path; your heart bleeds for anyone's brother. I've got to tell you you're a pain in the ass."      Oingo Boingo!


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OfflineMOoKie
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kriz]
    #340257 - 06/14/01 08:02 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Our prison system is weird. Most of the people that are there, don't deserve to be. And some of them don't deserve to be anywhere.



--------------------
"If it ain't one thing, then it's the other. Any cause that crosses your path; your heart bleeds for anyone's brother. I've got to tell you you're a pain in the ass."      Oingo Boingo!


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Offlinecoma
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #340397 - 06/14/01 12:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

>>Hitting or yelling at a dog or a cat for doing something it's not supposed to (eg// jumping up on the dinner table) will make it learn not to do that again. Standard Pavlov style conditioning. It a question of does it make sense to induce fear or pain upon a person or animal for doing something that they don't understand as wrong. <<

well actually, while hitting a dog may help it learn not to do it again, hitting a cat will just make it mean and scared of the person.

timothy mcveigh should or shouldn't have been killed. as a threat, he should be removed from society. he got what he wanted. he did what he thought he should do. he stood up for his beliefs. he died.


--------
"the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

Edited by coma on 06/14/01 05:13 AM.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #340454 - 06/14/01 03:20 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

****The criminals themselves might try to blame it one their pasts but a good defense lawyer will simply include it as a part of personal/mitigating circumstances in order to lighten punishment. ****

Therfore it's a tactic? Doesn't sound sincere to me. Lawyers suck.

****A human is an animal so I think it is relevant (a cat may not be a dog, but both are animals). ****

No we are humans not animals. But you bring up a good point. Animals kill other animals as a way to "punish" them from lets say coming to close to their den, nest, and/or territory. What's the difference if we kill an asshole with the death penalty?

****However, a human being does not do something that they consider wrong****

You couldn't be more wrong. I stole something from the store when i was younger and I knew it was wrong but i wanted that particular item. This is the same as murder, the criminal knows it's wrong but are willing to take the risk.

****Punishment isn't a very good tool for rehabilitation because reprimanding someone for doing something they don't consider wrong ****

see answer above

****punishment can be a rehab tool, but so could LSD psychotherapy ****

then again we'd all try to get in jail to enter these experiments...i know i would. ;)

****Obviously with an animal you can't teach them the abstract principles of morality, but with a human being, through rehabilitation, you can****

So then humans and animals are different? I thought we were the same?

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: jihead]
    #340464 - 06/14/01 03:42 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

****in the end, the only reason we have the death penalty is because it is a quick fix****

Correct...and i fell a nut job like this has no way of being rehibilitated. so a quick fix it will be

****Amerikan****

was this a typo or the disrespect for your own country? Just curious.

****about what true solitary confinement means to a person for over a week. now think about 70 years****

The justice system would never go for it...however i would as long as he does something to pay for himself by being there....i don't want to pay a dime.....Bring back the chain gangs!!

****if youve ever seen/read shawshank redemption or the movie w/ kevin bacon, you know how intensely screwed up this turns a person****

Them are movies not reality

****bemusment of the victims and murder-happy facists****

So the victims are murder happy and there for amusment? Sounds pretty shallow if ya ask me. Lets see if you'd feel that way if your mothers head was blown off. Ofcourse tim was a model citizen.

****these people know the hurt caused by murder, why would they want to inflict the same pain on tims family?****

TIM inflicted the pain on his own family and the families of the 168 he slaughtered. And the death penalty in their minds and mine is that it's a punishment not murder.

****of course, innvert will make some statement about how they deserve it for his actions, etc. but as for me, it just doesnt make a whole lot of sense****

You whole post makes no sense....read above

****if they would just stop making this man a celebrity and jumping at every opportunity to milk their 15 minutes of fame then tim would have faded into obscurity****

But people like you and the media just won't let it go...don't be a hypocrite

****the survivors that went to the gravesite or spoke out against the execution were the ones who got my sympathies****

WOW what a surprise...all 168 have my sympathies

****bloodlust isnt justified when terrorists do it, why should it be when it is cried for by midwestern facists and carried out by a corrupt system?****

the difference was that tim was acoward mass murderer.....the victims wanted justice...and justice was done. Too bad you're too blind to see.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #340543 - 06/14/01 07:15 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

***Wrong...you view punishment as vengance and that i can't help you with.

No, I view excessive punishment without warranting circumstances, that is NOT the ideal way to accomplish the goals of the criminal justice system, that is in direct conflict with the crime being punished, as rage simply because I cannot conceive any other reason for it to be done.

****the gov't's actions at Waco and R.R. is what caused the bombing"

So your justifing Tims actions? ****

I believe you took my words out of context. No I am not justifying Tims actions. I was stating why TIM felt they were justified. Once again, people do not commit acts if they cannot justify them to themselves (ex- you stole candy as a kid. You justified it to yourself by saying that you wanted it and mommy wouldn't buy it, etc). Once again, who's ideal of justice should be the standard. A moral majority is no more correct than Tim McVeigh, because each is equally convicted (no pun intended)

****From what i saw (if you take the onion seriously) That pretty much backs what i've been saying***

If you are not being a wiseass in that statement, your intelligence is something that should definitely be brought into question in all future debates. That was obvious satire. I'll quote:

****Everything Better Now In Oklahoma City
OKLAHOMA CITY, OK-- Timothy McVeigh's death by lethal injection Monday has made everything perfect in Oklahoma City, his 168 victims' loved ones describing themselves as feeling "100 percent better." "I just know my baby girl is up there in heaven, smiling down on this execution, happy as can be," said a beaming George Browne, whose 7-year-old daughter Brianna died in the 1995 federal-building blast. "Her death is avenged, and everything's great." Said Oklahoma City schoolteacher Sherrie Olsacher, 37, who was blinded in the bombing: "You can't imagine how healing this is. My eyesight's even returned." Moments after McVeigh was pronounced dead, 168 white doves were seen soaring over the city, racing toward a suddenly cloudless horizon that beckoned the dawn of a glorious new day****

Did any of the victims sound like that when they were interviewed after 8am Monday? Tim's death isn't going to please the dead (if you believe they are watching from heaven), nor is it going to please Gaia (if you believe in that idea). That was pure satire. Proving exactly what I've been saying about the death penalty not bring any sort of real closure.

**It was more than you know....what fundamental was it based off of?.....and i'm a libertarian***

That's only what Bible thumpers (I'm not calling you a bible thumper; many people are just uninformed) wish you to believe. To begin with, the founding fathers were DEIST not any sort of THEIST. Deism was a very popular 'religion' amongst intellectuals of the 17th and 18th centuries.
It was founded on the fundamental idea of 1) democratic rule by the people. From a moral standpoint, it was founded on the notion that the govt would not interfere with such matters of concern of the people. Once again this is another topic entirely, but I'll leave with a quote:
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
----Thomas Jefferson




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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: ]
    #340552 - 06/14/01 07:33 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

****No, I view excessive punishment without warranting circumstances****

Then what warranting circumstances would a mass murderer have to violate to have the death penalty?....as if killing 168 people wasn't bad enough.

****You justified it to yourself by saying that you wanted it and mommy wouldn't buy it****

No..i think you missed my point. I knew ahead of time what i was doing was wrong (if not then i would of just grabbed it off the shelf and walk out instead of stuffing it in my pants) therefor any justification i may have dreamed up would be flawed because i knew it was wrong. See i take responsibility for my actions...many can learn from this.

****If you are not being a wiseass in that statement, your intelligence is something that should definitely be brought into question in all future debates. That was obvious satire. I'll quote: ****

Give me some credit. I realized that article was a satire but when trying to use something that is make believe (like the onion) you have to be prepared for make believe answers. Now relax you sound a little stressed.. :)



Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #340584 - 06/14/01 08:27 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> No..i think you missed my point. I knew ahead of time what i was doing was wrong (if not then i would of just grabbed it off the shelf and walk out instead of stuffing it in my pants) therefor any justification i may have dreamed up would be flawed because i knew it was wrong. See i take responsibility for my actions...many can learn from this.

But many criminals feel justified in their acts; just because you did something once and knew it was wrong doesn't mean that you speak for the entire history of criminal behaviour.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #340623 - 06/14/01 09:23 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

****But many criminals feel justified in their acts****

The criminals know it's wrong but take the risk anyway...probably because they are fucking idiots. Don't try to dodge the issue

BTW when i say criminals i mean violent crimes not smoking Pot or somrthing

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #340860 - 06/15/01 03:06 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> The criminals know it's wrong but take the risk anyway

When people in gangs kill each other they don't see it as wrong, they consider it a matter of honour, vengeance or protecting their gang.

Some murderers might very well consider what they're doing as wrong, and know they're taking the chance, but how do we know?

we're getting a little off topic here I think.



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Anonymous

Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #340893 - 06/15/01 03:52 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

We got off topic long ago, I believe...
Invertigo, that's just it: there are no warranting circumstances to take another individual's life. None. That is why murder is wrong. Gov't-sanctioned murder is still murder.

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Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #341248 - 06/15/01 03:40 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

****When people in gangs kill each other they don't see it as wrong, they consider it a matter of honour, vengeance or protecting their gang. ****

I disagree. If they don't think it's wrong why do they flee like cowards after the fact? Because they know it's wrong.

Are we responsible for any action we do? If this is a fact then i'm am even more pro-death penalty then i was before.

****Some murderers might very well consider what they're doing as wrong, and know they're taking the chance, but how do we know? ****

I don't like this type of rebute. This is the world famous "if your not one, then how can you know". Hell i've never been in space but i know an awfully lot about it. You know they know it's wrong, your just trying to patronize me....good try.

****we're getting a little off topic here I think****

Actually i think this is on point and your denial to accept the fact that people are responsible for their actions makes me somewhat worried about the next generation of mind numbed people.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: ]
    #341691 - 06/16/01 02:34 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> there are no warranting circumstances to take another individual's life. None.

Why does killing have to be justified?



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InvisibleKid
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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #341694 - 06/16/01 02:42 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> I disagree. If they don't think it's wrong why do they flee like cowards after the fact? Because they know it's wrong.

Please read about the life of Scott "Monster" Cody. He was a gang member in LA. His young girlfriend had become pregnant and was in the hospital and about to give birth. Recently, there had beenmuch unpleasantness (some incident) with another rival gang in the area. Instead of going to the hospital to see his child be born, Scott killed a rival gang member. He walked home and watched television. He was later arrested. He by no means tried to escape after the murder; in fact he casually went home and just turned the TV on.

Perpetrators of marital violence who end up killing their spouses feel justified in their violence. They felt that their spouse had demeaned or harmed them in some way and that the only way to solve the problem was to "teach her a lesson." They hide the body or falsify the cause of death in order to avoid being put in prison.

Knowing you can go to prison for an act and attempting to elude detection for doing that act does not mean that you consider your actions morally wrong!

> You know they know it's wrong,

My point is that you can't see inside someone's head! Look at me for fucks sake! I've stated that I don't believe killing human beings is "wrong". Do you not believe me? And be assured, if I ever did commit criminal homicide I would attempt not be detected. It's a basic principle. Again, knowledge that something can land you in prison (adverse consequences) and attempting to avoid those consequences is not proof that one considers their actions morally wrong!

If you want a really good read about the mindset of perpetrators of violence read Roy F. Baumeister's _Evil: Inside Human Violence and Creulty_ (published 1997), or Aaron T. Beck's _Prisoners of Hate: The Cognitive Basis of Anger, Hostility, and Violence_. Both books models for violence include a process of justification.


and another aside:

> I don't like this type of rebute. This is the world famous "if your not one, then how can you know".

No, it was more along the lines of if you are not that one person, how can you know? Can you read minds? I think not.

> your just trying to patronize me....good try.

Please stop proscribing what I'm trying to do. Don't analyse my approach, just engage in the discussion. I get a lot of replies (not just from you) that include an analysis of my approach. My hunch is that these are attempts to discredit me.

Edited by Kid on 06/15/01 08:20 PM.



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OfflineHB
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Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #350860 - 06/28/01 11:42 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

im not against the death penalty, i just believe it is the easy way out. life in prison is possibly one of the worst psychological tortures i could think of, but i dont want to spend my taxes paying for that fucker's food. he'd probably kill himself in the cell by soaking cigarette butts in his water and drinking it.

though not moral in any way, i believe tim should have been strapped down and all the victim's families could beat the shit out of him until he died. i believe that is all he deserves.

i dont like the government very much either, but im not going to go about trying to change it by killing innocent people animals and children. thats pure and utter bullshit, he shouldnt have died a painless death

We're all MADD here...


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Offlinewindex
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Registered: 06/27/01
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Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kid]
    #350881 - 06/29/01 12:54 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

***Timothy McVeigh is NOT your standard terrorist. Most terrorists come from other countries, other ethnic backgrounds. This was a boy who grew up in your own backyard, another "all American" that decided to kill people. ***

let me apologize if im not reading this how you ment, the internet has a way of twisted words when you read them rather then hear them.

Most terrorists come from other countries, other ethnic backgrounds.
arent they the boy who grew up in someone else backyard in the other countries? he's from the US he blew up a building in the US, how many times on the news do you hear about a terrorist blow up something (seems like they have a hatred torwad busses) from their own country?

You approach the turnstiles and know
that when you get there you have to give
the man two dollars or he won't let you
inside but when you get there everything
goes wrong.


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