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Offlinezetek
enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Solo]
    #341228 - 06/15/01 01:26 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Check this out:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm

Considering the claims of the Flat Earth Society, I would have to say that being a scientist (by definition...one who gains knowledge by careful observation, deduction of the laws which govern changes and conditions, and by testing these deductions by experiment) and advocating the concept of a flat earth, are mutually exclusive.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #341245 - 06/15/01 03:26 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

****What I can't understand is how it seems as though the pro-life camp is convinced than any pro-choicer is a salavating baby murderer; that all pro-choicers enjoy ripping fetuses from the womb****

the same can be said for people, such as myself, who are pro-death penalty

****Pro-choice is just that; having the option****

I'm pro-life. But if a person wants to abort then i say let them do it, i just don't want to pay for it. It's God, not me, who they need to explain about their actions.

****some people DO NOT consider a fetus a human****

And some do adimantly(sp). Is it only your opinion that counts?

****Everyone can agree that a 33 year old is both human and alive****

And therefore responsible for their actions....a fetus is not

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #341247 - 06/15/01 03:33 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

****I'm just trying to provide a defining characteristic of what it is to be "human." ****

That's fine and all but it's the wrong definition.

****A five-month old fetus can be viable and not yet have it's cerebral cortex wired up****

would they send the baby home if it wasn't?

****This might be too clinical for some people's tastes, but that's my opinion of how "human" should be defined****

At least you admitted it was merely an opinion and not solid fact..i can respect that..though i disagree with you completly

****believe morally that it should be well before the embryo/fetus reaches this window of development****

At at what time do you believe the embryo/fetus reaches this window?...taking in consideration the example i gave about my friends baby being born at 6 months.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
    #341376 - 06/15/01 07:32 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I honestly don't see where a 1st trimester fetus fits any of the definitions of 'human'. Number 2 and number 4 are the only possible arguments: 2- as Zetek pointed out, a Cerebral Cortex is what seperates us from the lower life forms. It isn't wired until 3rd trimester. So that kills the argument for number2.
Number 4- a lump of grey cells does not resemble a human being to me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
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OfflineIntox
journeyman
Registered: 12/25/00
Posts: 59
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #341389 - 06/15/01 07:52 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

If I was aborted,even if it was before I reached a stage of development that is considered "human",I wouldn't be alive,I would be dead.
That is my view on abortion.




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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Solo]
    #341685 - 06/16/01 02:24 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> And by the way Kid you mis-quoted me, please be more respectful in the future. I said that a fetus is HUMAN
A human fetus is HUMAN. It is HUMAN. Period. You turned around and started using the term human being right below my quote. I object to that.

Then that's not a misquote is it, if it's part of my reply?

> Professionals making money arguing with each other will continue to dispute things for as long as it suits them financially.

Okay, blame all semantic problems on the fact that people want to make money. Sure.

> Scientists would be out of work if they agreed on everything. There is a built in dynamic in science to dispute theory and promote your own.

As we all know all scientists are rich. Again, this is ridiculous. Semantic problems are not the result of economic behaviour.



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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
    #341689 - 06/16/01 02:29 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

>1. Biology. a. The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

Metabolism: Even a rock undergoes slow chemical reaction.
Reproduction. A rock splits in two.
Response to stimuli. Kick a rock.

> 1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of human beings.

An ape has the characteristics of being human.

> How anyone could debate that abortion is not killing atleast SOMETHING is absurd.

Everything can be absurd, but I never said that abortion wasn't killing.



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InvisibleCaptain Jack
i [heart] you

Registered: 01/24/00
Posts: 4,113
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #341975 - 06/16/01 10:43 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I used to be adamently pro choice.

I have come to currently believe that late term abortions are morally unacceptable. Whether they should be illegal or not is another question, that I don't know the answer to.

I have never heard of a fetus living after only being in the womb 18 weeks (4.5 months). So unless anybody can present evidence to the contrary, that will be my "random line in the sand" as to when it becomes a no-no.

http://www.captainjackmusic.com


--------------------
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Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.


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OfflineKriz
old hand

Registered: 10/12/99
Posts: 231
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kid]
    #342033 - 06/16/01 04:49 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

Metabolism: Even a rock undergoes slow chemical reaction.
Reproduction. A rock splits in two.
Response to stimuli. Kick a rock.




Are you fucking kidding me? I lost all respect I had for you with that statement. Firstly, another defination is in order. me?tab?o?lism (m?-t?b??-l?z??m) n. Biology. 1. The complex of physical and chemical processes occurring within a living cell or organism that are necessary for the maintenance of life. In metabolism some substances are broken down to yield energy for vital processes while other substances, necessary for life, are synthesized. 2. The functioning of a specific substance within the living body.

How on earth is this explained by 'even a rock undergoes some chemical change'? On top of that, a rock does not undergo slow chemical reaction from within. If you refer back to what you were talking about.. it says (and i quote) '.. response to stimuli or adaption to the enviroment orginating from within the organism'. A rock does not change without outside stimuli. Be it the pressure of earth's atmosphere, or rain erosion, or otherwise. Still it is all outside stimuli.

Secondly.. Splitting it two is not reproduction. If I were to cut your hand off did you just have a child? Of course not. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Thirdly, simple physics (ie kicking a rock and having it move) is NOT response to stimuli. Try kicking a mountain. Does it respond? Well its really just a very big rock isn't it?

I am truely worried for you if in your mind a fetus is no more alive then a rock.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


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OfflineKriz
old hand

Registered: 10/12/99
Posts: 231
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #342036 - 06/16/01 05:07 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

hu?man (hy??m?n) adj. 1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of human beings. 2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character that distinguish human beings from the lower animals. (how about genetics? do you think just ANYTHING will come out if those particular cells are left to grow?) 3. Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with human beings. (Obviously but that could be true of any creature so we'll ignore this) 4. Having the form of a human being. (A common argument of mine when playing devil's advocate on this subject is the fact that the fetus's of most 'higher' life forms look nearly identical. However, keep in mind a chimp looks very similar to a human, as to most primates. Therefore its reasonable that one must take into greater details when choosing to classify something of this nature. Certainly any scientific study of a givin fetus would show the many simliarities between one and a fully grown, or atleast infantial, human.) 5. Made up of human beings. (Well.. technically... but we'll leave this one out too) --hu?man n. A human being; a person. --hu?man?hood? n. --hu?man?ness n.


I'll try to look past the fact that you used an unagreed upon opinion as fact in your argument, but in the future, try not to treat other's arbitrary points of views as some type of evidence.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


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Anonymous

Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
    #342742 - 06/17/01 07:19 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character that distinguish human beings from the lower animals. (how about genetics? do you think just ANYTHING will come out if those particular cells are left to grow?) "

The definition does not state anywhere the 'potential' and that is what you are basing that argument on. ('left to grow')

"4. Having the form of a human being. (A common argument of mine when playing devil's advocate on this subject is the fact that the fetus's of most 'higher' life forms look nearly identical. However, keep in mind a chimp looks very similar to a human, as to most primates. Therefore its reasonable that one must take into greater details when choosing to classify something of this nature. Certainly any scientific study of a givin fetus would show the many simliarities between one and a fully grown, or atleast infantial, human.) "

Well, at what trimester are you asserting that that would be true? For the first weeks the "fetus" is really no more than a lump of cells. That doesn't resemble a human or chimp any more than it resembles a platypus. And, early on, I don't believe (I could be wrong, but it is my understanding) that the genetic/physical differences in a human fetus and other primate fetuses are basically nonexistant. What you seem to be arguing against are late term abortions. None of your arguments really pertain to relatively early abortions.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun


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Anonymous

Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #342747 - 06/17/01 07:27 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"****Pro-choice is just that; having the option****

I'm pro-life. But if a person wants to abort then i say let them do it, i just don't want to pay for it. It's God, not me, who they need to explain about their actions"

Ok, then you are pro-choice. If you believe that another can have an abortion, you are pro-choice. Just because you wouldn't personally have an abortion, you still believe in the freedom to choose. That is what the issue is all about. Why have you been so adamant about arguing to the contrary???
And there are those of us who don't believe that a judging, seperate godhead exists. Read some John Martin to see why. Or better yet, read the Tao De Xing. Just for some perspective, if nothing else.
And the way our gov. wastes money, feel secure in the fact that a much larger amount of your money is being wasted elsewhere. Money spent on abortion is not even a drop in the bucket, in the grand scheme of things.


"**some people DO NOT consider a fetus a human****

And some do adimantly(sp). Is it only your opinion that counts? "

No, both opinions are valid. One shouldn't take preference over the other. That is why people should have the right to choose, based on THEIR opinion. Those who are politically pro-life are trying to have the federal government sanction their opinion on the matter.





------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun


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Offlinezetek
enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #342786 - 06/17/01 08:36 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"- as Zetek pointed out, a Cerebral Cortex is what seperates us from the lower life forms."

I've got to make one small correction here PeachMan (and maybe open up a whole new can of worms)...

Actually what I said was, it is the degree of development of our cerebral cortex that separates us from other species; chimpanzees for example. They have a cerebral cortex, but it isn't complex enough to allow them to do things which are uniquely human.

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Anonymous

Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #342866 - 06/17/01 11:56 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Zetek, right. I meant an advanced cerebral cortex that seperates us from chimps, etc... My fault for the confusion.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun


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OfflineKriz
old hand

Registered: 10/12/99
Posts: 231
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #343147 - 06/18/01 07:54 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

The definition does not state anywhere the 'potential' and that is what you are basing that argument on. ('left to grow')




That's not what I'm basing my argument on. I'm basing it on its current genetic make up. Which is 100% human.

In reply to:

Well, at what trimester are you asserting that that would be true? For the first weeks the "fetus" is really no more than a lump of cells. That doesn't resemble a human or chimp any more than it resembles a platypus. And, early on, I don't believe (I could be wrong, but it is my understanding) that the genetic/physical differences in a human fetus and other primate fetuses are basically nonexistant. What you seem to be arguing against are late term abortions. None of your arguments really pertain to relatively early abortions.




It seems we aren't all aware of the stages of fetus developement. By week 4 it has not only has a backbone and muscles forming, and have eyes, arms, legs, and ears, but it has a heart, which pumps blood through its body. A pregnancy is not even detectable until week 2. No realistic abortion takes place before atleast this. By week 8 all organs have finished forming. The stomach produce digestive juices and the kidney's function. 40 muscle sets are working in conjunction with the nervous system. If this isn't alive I don't know what is.

Before responding to any more posts in a thread of this nature, perhaps we should all do a little reading.. www.justthefacts.org is a nice place to start. Maybe if everyone had a better idea of what exactly a 6 week old fetus was, (a clump of cells with a working circulatory system?) we'd get more productive results.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)

Edited by Kriz on 06/18/01 12:59 AM.



--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


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Offlinezetek
enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Kriz]
    #343320 - 06/18/01 12:51 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Kriz, I think your missing the point. We all know the zygote/embryo/fetus is alive. The question is what makes it human? Pull a cell out of my liver, or my eyelid, or my left femur. I guarantee that they are alive and all possess 100% of my genetic makeup. Those cells are of a human but are not a human. When considering an embryo of a human, there is nothing about it that uniquely sets it aside from all other species. It can't think; it isn't conscience, it isn't self-aware. So what human qualities does it have? A chimpanzee has all of those qualities, so why isn't a chimpanzee human?

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OfflineIntox
journeyman
Registered: 12/25/00
Posts: 59
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: zetek]
    #343428 - 06/18/01 04:53 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I think "oh it isn't an offical human yet" is a lame excuse.
I would spend years in jail for killing a poodle,but killing a human fetus is perfectly legal.
If you killed me at any stage of development,even if it was before the 'official human' stage,I would be dead because you killed me,and it was perfectly legal because of your lame ass excuse.




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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: ]
    #343446 - 06/18/01 05:26 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

****Ok, then you are pro-choice****

NO...To make things clear those who abort are fucking losers perhaps the only exception would be incest or rape.. In addition i feel that they have no concept of personal responsibility. Abortion is wrong but it is not up to me to stop them. I would be in favor of any law that would make the woman have to get the permission of the father before proceding. I also think these fucking loser fathers need to take responsibility and take care of their babys.

****And there are those of us who don't believe that a judging, seperate godhead exists. Read some John Martin to see why. Or better yet, read the Tao De Xing****

I have no will or desire to read someone elses opinion on God. In fact it's quite naive to just believe someone who writes a book. I will choose my faith and common sense......you can follow others if you like.

****Money spent on abortion is not even a drop in the bucket, in the grand scheme of things. ****

I agree that the government waste money but that is besides the point and still doesn't make this right. I don't care if it cost a dollar. I don't want to pay for it...maybe these losers need to pay cash.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Innvertigo]
    #343480 - 06/18/01 06:32 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

The issue of whether abortion is right or wrong is largely irrelavent to its legality (though for the record, I do not believe a fetus comes even close to being considered human - it has a vestigial tail early on, for one thing). More important is to consider what the alternative would be - is a child growing up unwanted, un-loved and most likely financially disadvantaged somehow better off?



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Death Penalty/Abortion [Re: Pynchon]
    #343494 - 06/18/01 06:50 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

****The issue of whether abortion is right or wrong is largely irrelavent to its legality ****

Would you say the same thing for murder or rape?...i don't think so

****I do not believe a fetus comes even close to being considered human - it has a vestigial tail early on, for one thing****

And about 50% think you are wrong...where does that leave us now? Is it your 50% that should heard over the other 50%?

****More important is to consider what the alternative would be - is a child growing up unwanted, un-loved and most likely financially disadvantaged somehow better off?****

Maybe that's something that needs to be in consideration before a woman opens her legs. It's called personal responsibility and many, if not most people today have none. There are many children that grow up unwanted who amount to very much in society today. If money is concerned then that further solidifies my point where the man and the woman need to think it out before they screw.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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