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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #339103 - 06/12/01 09:13 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"Objection, your Honor! Would consel please explain where this line of questioning is going"

My question was asked because i want to know where your BASE is. Everyone has a base....except moderates, and they're wishy washy. If i can know your absolutes then we can dispurse with your "everything is subjective" problem.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339110 - 06/12/01 09:42 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not even saying that everything is subjective.

My base is that I admit that there is the possibility that anything can be true and anything can be false. All I know is that I know nothing but I don't even know if I know that nor if I know that, ad infintium. I'm not certain if I can trust my senses. I could be wrong or I could be right about everything or somewhere in between but I'm not certain or maybe I am certain but I'm not certain about that.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #339122 - 06/12/01 10:28 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"My base is that I admit that there is the possibility that anything can be true and anything can be false"

Therefore you have no absolutes.....Hence subjectivism. A base is something where your beliefs tend to radiate from. Is your base a liquid base that forms and changes per topic? Or is your base absolute?....i tend to think it is liquid if not in gas form ;)

"All I know is that I know nothing but I don't even know if I know that nor if I know that, ad infintium"

More subjectivism....I'm having a hard time seeing your base.

"I could be wrong or I could be right about everything or somewhere in between but I'm not certain or maybe I am certain but I'm not certain about that."

Then how do you know if your convictions can be backed by fact if you don't know that they are real or not? Furthermore how do you expect others that you are trying to covince that what your saying is true? If you can't then what is the point of debate?


"but I'm not certain or maybe I am certain but I'm not certain about that."

UHHHH...ok...Am i wrong for being certain about my stances on specific subjects? or is it just YOU that are wrong if your certain?

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339258 - 06/13/01 02:04 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> Then how do you know if your convictions can be backed by fact if you don't know that they are real or not?

I don't; that's why they're not my convictions. They're temporarily adopted convictions if you want to call them that.

> Furthermore how do you expect others that you are trying to covince that what your saying is true?

Arguing by fact is not necessarily about obtaining Truth.

> If you can't then what is the point of debate?

Debate is interesting and opens me to new points of view.



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Anonymous

Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339259 - 06/13/01 02:06 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

For those of you calling for McVeigh's death, let me ask you why.

If it is as a punishment, I think both you and I would agree that life in solitary (no boyfriends, drugs, weights, etc. 1hr/week outside of his cell) is a much harsher punishment than execution (especially in McVeigh's case- being a 'martyr' or whatever)

A deterent? If someone wants/plans on killing someone, they are not going to way the pros and cons. Someone with enough hatred to kill isn't going to care what happens after the act is done.

It obviously can't be for rehabilitation, thus what is the reason? Revenge. Society and the victims (who wanted Tim McVeigh executed) were full of rage and vengence at what he had done. Weren't rage and vengence what caused the bombing?

If you hold that life is sacred (as you must to believe that murder is wrong) and that no one should choose whether another lives or dies, then execution is no more than state-sanctioned murder.

To Invertigo, Augustwest: I'm not saying that it wouldn't be a difficult thing to go thru, were one of your loved ones killed so mercilessly. I am not saying that there wouldn't be issues to work through. What I am saying is that if you would need the killer of your loved one to die in order to feel right with yourself again, you have deeper issues than the loss of a loved one. Just as two wrongs don't make a right, two deaths shouldn't help anyone heal. Closure is something you, as an individual, must gain; it isn't simply a bloodlust for revenge.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun


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OfflineKriz
old hand

Registered: 10/12/99
Posts: 231
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: ]
    #339701 - 06/13/01 12:05 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Those arguing against it seem to be missing the point that most are trying to put. It was not about revenge. It was about ending the problem. Perhaps if I had a brain tumor I could just take bottle after bottle of asprin to dull the pain? That would do as much for me as keeping mcveigh alive would do for anyone. He was a violent misguided person who had very strong beliefs. The idea that he would just stop and decide his cause was no longer worth fighting is ridiculous. He needed to be removed entirely from any possiblity of harming others. If you think an appropriate way to do this is to put him in a cell in some prison, allow me to ask you something. Why? Why keep him alive? Why feed him everyday? Why bother giving him medical assistence when he is sick? What's the point?

As for Kid. He IS a standard terrorist. How you could conclude that a terrorist who is raised in america is any different then one of any other nationality is beyond me. Perhaps a defination would help you.

ter?ror?ist (t?r??r-?st) n. 1. One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism. --ter?ror?ist adj. Of, relating to, or constituting terrorism. --ter?ror?is?tic adj.

ter?ror?ism (t?r??-r?z??m) n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

I am missing what separates him from others. He unlawfully used violence against people and property to intimate society and the gov't for political and idealogical reasons. Perhaps an addition to include upbringing, race, or place of birth is in order?

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #339761 - 06/13/01 03:03 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"I don't; that's why they're not my convictions. They're temporarily adopted convictions if you want to call them that."

Sounds pretty wishy washy if ya ask me. You have no convictions, no believes, no base. I can't even take you serious because you believe in nothing. You know what they say "if you believe in nothing you will believe anything".

"Arguing by fact is not necessarily about obtaining Truth"

No....truth is fact (no matter whether YOU believe it exist or not) if something is false then it isn't a fact....I hope they're not teaching you this in Canada.

"Debate is interesting and opens me to new points of view"

What does it matter if you don't believe anything you hear? In order to have a NEW point of view you have to have an old point of view.

I realize you don't want to admit it but your whole belief system is liquid and subjective. How can you deny that? But then again you don't believe in denying anything....now i'm confused................

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: ]
    #339774 - 06/13/01 03:24 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"If it is as a punishment, I think both you and I would agree that life in solitary (no boyfriends, drugs, weights, etc. 1hr/week outside of his cell) is a much harsher punishment than execution "

I actually would like your idea if there was a little torture in there. I don't want to pay a dime for this useless peice of shit. i say if we're not going to kill him work him extremely hard and use whips for my enjoyment :)

"A deterent? If someone wants/plans on killing someone, they are not going to way the pros and cons"

Who says it's a deterent? There are a lot of dipshits out there and now they know what will happen to them....it may deter one or two but the others, since they don't care, get their punishment in the form of torture...er the death penalty.

"It obviously can't be for rehabilitation" "Weren't rage and vengence what caused the bombing?"

I don't believe in rehabilitation for mass murderers, rapists, and child molesters. NO the rage is directed at the asshole who set off the bomb.

"If you hold that life is sacred (as you must to believe that murder is wrong) and that no one should choose whether another lives or dies, then execution is no more than state-sanctioned murder."

This is one of the oldest arguments to have to do with this subject. The funny thing is that a majority of the people who are against the death penalty are PRO DEATH (pro choice).

"What I am saying is that if you would need the killer of your loved one to die in order to feel right with yourself again, you have deeper issues than the loss of a loved one"

Yeah the deeper issue is that the loved one wants to see justice done. Justice in my mind should be the 'ol eye for an eye cliche' I believe if you kill the you shall be killed as a punishment....i don't see the problem. I guess i'm sick and tired of murderers, rapists, and child molesters (who can't be rehabilitated). getting off easy because their father spanked them or something. That is complete bullshit.

"Just as two wrongs don't make a right"

There was only one wrong here....and one punishment

"Closure is something you, as an individual, must gain; it isn't simply a bloodlust for revenge."

It's easy to say that in your shoes. I feel justice has been done ie: i feel closure


Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleBrownPastures
old hand

Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 968
Loc: here
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339777 - 06/13/01 03:25 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Your all missing the point. All of that which you have said is irrelivant. What we are doing here is exactly what the man wanted us to. He WANTED to die. He wanted the prison officials to wait after his death to tell the press he ate 2 pints of mint-chocolate-chip ice-cream. This is all fuel for his fire. I don't know if he ever imagined the enormity of it all. Were going to be writing chapters in history books about this piece of shit just like he wants us to. And that's what's wrong with the McVeigh Death Sentence.... I never post here , it's my first time... it seems like there are alot of smart people in these parts of town... peace

"slutguts" - auto59009
Drool Donkey Island

Edited by BrownPastures on 06/13/01 08:28 AM.



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Anonymous

Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339813 - 06/13/01 05:08 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"I actually would like your idea if there was a little torture in there. I don't want to pay a dime for this useless peice of shit. i say if we're not going to kill him work him extremely hard and use whips for my enjoyment :) "

This is what leads me to believe that your motivation is vengence and rage.

"Who says it's a deterent? There are a lot of dipshits out there and now they know what will happen to them....it may deter one or two but the others, since they don't care, get their punishment in the form of torture...er the death penalty"

The death penalty has been on the books (again) since the 76 when the Supreme Court reinstated it. The murder rate has risen since then. It hasn't worked as a deterent.

"NO the rage is directed at the asshole who set off the bomb. "

Once again, you admit your rage against McVeigh. His rage at the gov't's actions at Waco and R.R. is what caused the bombing. Why is your rage any different/better than his? Both resulted in the loss of human life(s).

"The funny thing is that a majority of the people who are against the death penalty are PRO DEATH (pro choice)."

I've heard this a million times. I may start another post and deal with this issue. Otherwise, it is not relevant.

"Yeah the deeper issue is that the loved one wants to see justice done"

Go to www.theonion.com Look at the first sidebar story. This pretty much somes it up.

"Justice in my mind should be the 'ol eye for an eye cliche' I believe if you kill the you shall be killed as a punishment"

Where to begin... number one, the Bible also says turn the other cheek, what of that? number two, our country, despite what right wing fundamentalist like to believe, was not founded under Christian ideology, so both sentiments are discarded by the law.
Justice is a farce. That is no reason to do anything as 'justice', and there is no such thing, in a practical sense. No one does ANYTHING if THEY don't feel it is justified. So who's ideal of justice wins out??
You shouldn't need to punish someone to feel better. You should be self-actuated enough to move on. Let karma do her work, or whatever.
As far as protecting the rest of us from McVeigh, trust me, if he is in his cell 23 hrs a day, he wont ever hurt any free person again.

So yet again... the reasons for capital punishment (or any sort of legal penalty)
-rehab
-punishment
-protection of society
-vengence

Capital punishment is not the optimal way to acheive any of the first three.... only the last remains as a reason...


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: ]
    #339863 - 06/13/01 06:41 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"This is what leads me to believe that your motivation is vengence and rage"

Wrong...you view punishment as vengance and that i can't help you with. What's wrong with Rage? I'm sure you as i, were extremely angry when you heard the news as to what happened. I feel rage only because he got off easy.

"The death penalty has been on the books (again) since the 76 when the Supreme Court reinstated it. The murder rate has risen since then. It hasn't worked as a deterent"

First off, i never said it was a deterant. I agree it's not , with the exception of a few because there are a lot of stupid people out there that don't look at the consequences before they do things.

"the gov't's actions at Waco and R.R. is what caused the bombing"

So your justifing Tims actions? It wasn't tim it was the governments fault. If i shoot you with a gun because you did something i don't believe in and is against my moral fiber, are my actions justified? Or is it your fault? This is the classic argument where the accused blames it on his childhood...what a joke.

"I've heard this a million times. I may start another post and deal with this issue. Otherwise, it is not relevant."

You brought up the sactanty of life. How is it different? Life is Life....with the exception of one of them is a criminal. I'll look forward to your abortion'esque post.

"Go to www.theonion.com Look at the first sidebar story. This pretty much somes it up. "

From what i saw (if you take the onion seriously) That pretty much backs what i've been saying...they now have closure...what was your point concerning that article?

"the Bible also says turn the other cheek"

I wasn't using the bible as a reference. I know it's in there but that's not how i came up with this belief. But your use of the turn the other cheek phrase is totally irrelevant when concerning a criminal who is sentanced.

"despite what right wing fundamentalist like to believe, was not founded under Christian ideology"

It was more than you know....what fundamental was it based off of?.....and i'm a libertarian

"Justice is a farce. That is no reason to do anything as 'justice', and there is no such thing, in a practical sense. No one does ANYTHING if THEY don't feel it is justified. So who's ideal of justice wins out?? "

Justice isn'r a farce if it's run by fair and honest people. I realize we have about 5% honest judges.
No one does anything unless it's justified? Im their mind maybe but does that still make it right? If i kick your little sister in the head because i felt i was justified to do it, am i right?

"Let karma do her work"

Karma is a farce that is make believe. Karma is what people who don't have any control over themselves use to make themselves feel better.

"-rehab
-punishment
-protection of society
-vengence

Capital punishment is not the optimal way to acheive any of the first three.... only the last remains as a reason... "

I think your mistaken. Capital punishment will help protect society (which is why i love it sooooo much). It is the ultimate punishment since we are a country full of pussies, that aren't willing to treat inmates that cause this sort of damage to society, like they should.


Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339879 - 06/13/01 07:50 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> You brought up the sactanty of life.

He brought up the sanctity of HUMAN life. Some people don't see a fetus as human.

> This is the classic argument where the accused blames it on his childhood...what a joke.

They don't usually use it as an excuse as much as they use it as a personal circumstance which contributed to their actions. It doesn't remove a person from criminal responsibility; it lightens the punishment.

> Justice isn'r a farce if it's run by fair and honest people.

The way you feel about karma is the way I feel about "justice".

Here's why I don't like the concept of criminal justice:

Would you punish an animal for doing something that it normally wouldn't ? Humans can choose their actions yes, but punishment makes no sense to me. Protecting society from that person makes sense, but punishment, WTF is that about?



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #339890 - 06/13/01 08:08 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

***He brought up the sanctity of HUMAN life. Some people don't see a fetus as human***

And many others feel it is. That aside the point is still relevant.

***They don't usually use it as an excuse as much as they use it as a personal circumstance which contributed to their actions. It doesn't remove a person from criminal responsibility; it lightens the punishment. ***

Actually they do blame it on their past. Watch many of the trials that go on in the U.S. and you'll see what i'm talking about.

I don't think it should lighten their punishment...ie: I'm sad that your parents left you when you were little BUT, you killed 60 people so your going to spend the rest of your life in jail..or be executed.....that's what i would do if i was a judge.

***Would you punish an animal for doing something that it normally wouldn't ? Humans can choose their actions yes, but punishment makes no sense to me. Protecting society from that person makes sense, but punishment, WTF is that about?***

An animal is not a human..this is not relavent. If humans can choose their actions, why does punishment not make sense?...you'r all over the board on this one. Punishment can be anything from standing in the corner or being put to death. Punishment can also be a rehab tool. It can also be a penalty in a hockey game.....hell even animals learn this.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339922 - 06/13/01 11:56 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

> Actually they do blame it on their past. Watch many of the trials that go on in the U.S. and you'll see what i'm talking about.

The criminals themselves might try to blame it one their pasts but a good defense lawyer will simply include it as a part of personal/mitigating circumstances in order to lighten punishment.

Also, it depends on the circumstance. Obviously there is a difference between killing 60 people and flying into a rage and physically harming someone. There's such a thing as non-insane automatism which absolves someone of criminal responsibility whereby the person's psychological makeup caused him/her to commit a criminal act against their will (obviously this is not the case w/ McVeigh as he pre-meditated the murders).

> An animal is not a human..this is not relavent.

A human is an animal so I think it is relevant (a cat may not be a dog, but both are animals).

> If humans can choose their actions, why does punishment not make sense?...

The point was that animals can choose their actions too. Would you consider an animals actions criminal under certain circumstances? No, because an animal apparently is unaware of morality. However, a human being does not do something that they consider wrong. Anyway, morality is an abstract concept and I think it's quite invalid.

> Punishment can also be a rehab tool.

Punishment isn't a very good tool for rehabilitation because reprimanding someone for doing something they don't consider wrong would probably make them defiant. Rehabilitating the person would involve convincing them that what they have done is wrong and then having them "repay their debt" of their own free will.

And yes, punishment can be a rehab tool, but so could LSD psychotherapy ;-)

> hell even animals learn this.

Hitting or yelling at a dog or a cat for doing something it's not supposed to (eg// jumping up on the dinner table) will make it learn not to do that again. Standard Pavlov style conditioning. It a question of does it make sense to induce fear or pain upon a person or animal for doing something that they don't understand as wrong.

Obviously with an animal you can't teach them the abstract principles of morality, but with a human being, through rehabilitation, you can.




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Offlinejihead
addict
Registered: 06/09/00
Posts: 399
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339956 - 06/14/01 01:10 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

in the end, the only reason we have the death penalty is because it is a quick fix, Amerikan style solution to a never-ending problem(sounds like another US policy aye?) think about what true solitary confinement means to a person for over a week. now think about 70 years. if youve ever seen/read shawshank redemption or the movie w/ kevin bacon, you know how intensely screwed up this turns a person, it is torture beyond comprehension by normal people. this is what we should be doing with our worst criminals, not ending their lives for the bemusment of the victims and murder-happy facists.
i actually watched a good deal of this on tv. b/c i was tired of typing and it was shown on every news channel for hours on end. all the victims family members who wanted to see it said the same thing about wanting to see him die so they wouldnt be hurt any more by his words, by his actions, etc. it made me sick. these people know the hurt caused by murder, why would they want to inflict the same pain on tims family? of course, innvert will make some statement about how they deserve it for his actions, etc. but as for me, it just doesnt make a whole lot of sense. if they would just stop making this man a celebrity and jumping at every opportunity to milk their 15 minutes of fame then tim would have faded into obscurity. the survivors that went to the gravesite or spoke out against the execution were the ones who got my sympathies. bloodlust isnt justified when terrorists do it, why should it be when it is cried for by midwestern facists and carried out by a corrupt system?



--------------------
kill white noise


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OfflineKriz
old hand

Registered: 10/12/99
Posts: 231
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kriz]
    #340143 - 06/14/01 05:37 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

No body seemed to agknowledge any of what I said. The reason I feel capitol punishment is nessisary is simple. It prevents any possibility of further harming society. While, in theory, this can be acheived by locking someone away, why bother? Why keep him alive only to be kept in a cell, when you can remove him entirely?

Allow me to present you with a question. Is it wrong for me to see you walking down the street, grab you, throw you in my basement and lock you in for the rest of your life? Almost certainly it is. So why is it ok to do so to a murderer? Because they have done harm to others, and should be removed from the chance of doing it again. Sometimes these actions can be done to instill a fear into this criminal so that they don't do whatever it is that got them there again. Sometimes it serves as simple removal from others so they CAN"T commit these crimes for some duration of time. And sometimes, in the case of capitol punishment, it is done to permenantly remove this threat.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


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OfflineMOoKie
member
Registered: 04/06/01
Posts: 119
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #340256 - 06/14/01 08:00 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

He shouldn't have died simply because a lot of questions remain about the bombing. There's a much bigger story here, and Mcveigh is the scapegoat.

What's this Ryder truck doing in a military compound outside of OKC in early April, 1995? And why were screens concealing the entire place?



Go here to see the terra server image as compared to a picture taken of it: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/TRUCK/TERRA/terra.html


Five lines down in the text.


If he was a lone bomber, why is the OK. Highway Patrol reporting another bomb?

Why did the ATF know not to go to work that day?

You can go on and on with stuff like this.





--------------------
"If it ain't one thing, then it's the other. Any cause that crosses your path; your heart bleeds for anyone's brother. I've got to tell you you're a pain in the ass."      Oingo Boingo!


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OfflineMOoKie
member
Registered: 04/06/01
Posts: 119
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kriz]
    #340257 - 06/14/01 08:02 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Our prison system is weird. Most of the people that are there, don't deserve to be. And some of them don't deserve to be anywhere.



--------------------
"If it ain't one thing, then it's the other. Any cause that crosses your path; your heart bleeds for anyone's brother. I've got to tell you you're a pain in the ass."      Oingo Boingo!


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Offlinecoma
journeyman
Registered: 03/27/01
Posts: 59
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #340397 - 06/14/01 12:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

>>Hitting or yelling at a dog or a cat for doing something it's not supposed to (eg// jumping up on the dinner table) will make it learn not to do that again. Standard Pavlov style conditioning. It a question of does it make sense to induce fear or pain upon a person or animal for doing something that they don't understand as wrong. <<

well actually, while hitting a dog may help it learn not to do it again, hitting a cat will just make it mean and scared of the person.

timothy mcveigh should or shouldn't have been killed. as a threat, he should be removed from society. he got what he wanted. he did what he thought he should do. he stood up for his beliefs. he died.


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"the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

Edited by coma on 06/14/01 05:13 AM.



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"the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."


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Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #340454 - 06/14/01 03:20 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

****The criminals themselves might try to blame it one their pasts but a good defense lawyer will simply include it as a part of personal/mitigating circumstances in order to lighten punishment. ****

Therfore it's a tactic? Doesn't sound sincere to me. Lawyers suck.

****A human is an animal so I think it is relevant (a cat may not be a dog, but both are animals). ****

No we are humans not animals. But you bring up a good point. Animals kill other animals as a way to "punish" them from lets say coming to close to their den, nest, and/or territory. What's the difference if we kill an asshole with the death penalty?

****However, a human being does not do something that they consider wrong****

You couldn't be more wrong. I stole something from the store when i was younger and I knew it was wrong but i wanted that particular item. This is the same as murder, the criminal knows it's wrong but are willing to take the risk.

****Punishment isn't a very good tool for rehabilitation because reprimanding someone for doing something they don't consider wrong ****

see answer above

****punishment can be a rehab tool, but so could LSD psychotherapy ****

then again we'd all try to get in jail to enter these experiments...i know i would. ;)

****Obviously with an animal you can't teach them the abstract principles of morality, but with a human being, through rehabilitation, you can****

So then humans and animals are different? I thought we were the same?

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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