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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: jihead]
    #340464 - 06/14/01 08:42 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

****in the end, the only reason we have the death penalty is because it is a quick fix****

Correct...and i fell a nut job like this has no way of being rehibilitated. so a quick fix it will be

****Amerikan****

was this a typo or the disrespect for your own country? Just curious.

****about what true solitary confinement means to a person for over a week. now think about 70 years****

The justice system would never go for it...however i would as long as he does something to pay for himself by being there....i don't want to pay a dime.....Bring back the chain gangs!!

****if youve ever seen/read shawshank redemption or the movie w/ kevin bacon, you know how intensely screwed up this turns a person****

Them are movies not reality

****bemusment of the victims and murder-happy facists****

So the victims are murder happy and there for amusment? Sounds pretty shallow if ya ask me. Lets see if you'd feel that way if your mothers head was blown off. Ofcourse tim was a model citizen.

****these people know the hurt caused by murder, why would they want to inflict the same pain on tims family?****

TIM inflicted the pain on his own family and the families of the 168 he slaughtered. And the death penalty in their minds and mine is that it's a punishment not murder.

****of course, innvert will make some statement about how they deserve it for his actions, etc. but as for me, it just doesnt make a whole lot of sense****

You whole post makes no sense....read above

****if they would just stop making this man a celebrity and jumping at every opportunity to milk their 15 minutes of fame then tim would have faded into obscurity****

But people like you and the media just won't let it go...don't be a hypocrite

****the survivors that went to the gravesite or spoke out against the execution were the ones who got my sympathies****

WOW what a surprise...all 168 have my sympathies

****bloodlust isnt justified when terrorists do it, why should it be when it is cried for by midwestern facists and carried out by a corrupt system?****

the difference was that tim was acoward mass murderer.....the victims wanted justice...and justice was done. Too bad you're too blind to see.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #340543 - 06/14/01 12:15 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

***Wrong...you view punishment as vengance and that i can't help you with.

No, I view excessive punishment without warranting circumstances, that is NOT the ideal way to accomplish the goals of the criminal justice system, that is in direct conflict with the crime being punished, as rage simply because I cannot conceive any other reason for it to be done.

****the gov't's actions at Waco and R.R. is what caused the bombing"

So your justifing Tims actions? ****

I believe you took my words out of context. No I am not justifying Tims actions. I was stating why TIM felt they were justified. Once again, people do not commit acts if they cannot justify them to themselves (ex- you stole candy as a kid. You justified it to yourself by saying that you wanted it and mommy wouldn't buy it, etc). Once again, who's ideal of justice should be the standard. A moral majority is no more correct than Tim McVeigh, because each is equally convicted (no pun intended)

****From what i saw (if you take the onion seriously) That pretty much backs what i've been saying***

If you are not being a wiseass in that statement, your intelligence is something that should definitely be brought into question in all future debates. That was obvious satire. I'll quote:

****Everything Better Now In Oklahoma City
OKLAHOMA CITY, OK-- Timothy McVeigh's death by lethal injection Monday has made everything perfect in Oklahoma City, his 168 victims' loved ones describing themselves as feeling "100 percent better." "I just know my baby girl is up there in heaven, smiling down on this execution, happy as can be," said a beaming George Browne, whose 7-year-old daughter Brianna died in the 1995 federal-building blast. "Her death is avenged, and everything's great." Said Oklahoma City schoolteacher Sherrie Olsacher, 37, who was blinded in the bombing: "You can't imagine how healing this is. My eyesight's even returned." Moments after McVeigh was pronounced dead, 168 white doves were seen soaring over the city, racing toward a suddenly cloudless horizon that beckoned the dawn of a glorious new day****

Did any of the victims sound like that when they were interviewed after 8am Monday? Tim's death isn't going to please the dead (if you believe they are watching from heaven), nor is it going to please Gaia (if you believe in that idea). That was pure satire. Proving exactly what I've been saying about the death penalty not bring any sort of real closure.

**It was more than you know....what fundamental was it based off of?.....and i'm a libertarian***

That's only what Bible thumpers (I'm not calling you a bible thumper; many people are just uninformed) wish you to believe. To begin with, the founding fathers were DEIST not any sort of THEIST. Deism was a very popular 'religion' amongst intellectuals of the 17th and 18th centuries.
It was founded on the fundamental idea of 1) democratic rule by the people. From a moral standpoint, it was founded on the notion that the govt would not interfere with such matters of concern of the people. Once again this is another topic entirely, but I'll leave with a quote:
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
----Thomas Jefferson




------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: ]
    #340552 - 06/14/01 12:33 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

****No, I view excessive punishment without warranting circumstances****

Then what warranting circumstances would a mass murderer have to violate to have the death penalty?....as if killing 168 people wasn't bad enough.

****You justified it to yourself by saying that you wanted it and mommy wouldn't buy it****

No..i think you missed my point. I knew ahead of time what i was doing was wrong (if not then i would of just grabbed it off the shelf and walk out instead of stuffing it in my pants) therefor any justification i may have dreamed up would be flawed because i knew it was wrong. See i take responsibility for my actions...many can learn from this.

****If you are not being a wiseass in that statement, your intelligence is something that should definitely be brought into question in all future debates. That was obvious satire. I'll quote: ****

Give me some credit. I realized that article was a satire but when trying to use something that is make believe (like the onion) you have to be prepared for make believe answers. Now relax you sound a little stressed.. :)



Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #340584 - 06/14/01 01:27 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

> No..i think you missed my point. I knew ahead of time what i was doing was wrong (if not then i would of just grabbed it off the shelf and walk out instead of stuffing it in my pants) therefor any justification i may have dreamed up would be flawed because i knew it was wrong. See i take responsibility for my actions...many can learn from this.

But many criminals feel justified in their acts; just because you did something once and knew it was wrong doesn't mean that you speak for the entire history of criminal behaviour.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #340623 - 06/14/01 02:23 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

****But many criminals feel justified in their acts****

The criminals know it's wrong but take the risk anyway...probably because they are fucking idiots. Don't try to dodge the issue

BTW when i say criminals i mean violent crimes not smoking Pot or somrthing

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #340860 - 06/14/01 08:06 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

> The criminals know it's wrong but take the risk anyway

When people in gangs kill each other they don't see it as wrong, they consider it a matter of honour, vengeance or protecting their gang.

Some murderers might very well consider what they're doing as wrong, and know they're taking the chance, but how do we know?

we're getting a little off topic here I think.



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Anonymous

Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #340893 - 06/14/01 08:52 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

We got off topic long ago, I believe...
Invertigo, that's just it: there are no warranting circumstances to take another individual's life. None. That is why murder is wrong. Gov't-sanctioned murder is still murder.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #341248 - 06/15/01 08:40 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

****When people in gangs kill each other they don't see it as wrong, they consider it a matter of honour, vengeance or protecting their gang. ****

I disagree. If they don't think it's wrong why do they flee like cowards after the fact? Because they know it's wrong.

Are we responsible for any action we do? If this is a fact then i'm am even more pro-death penalty then i was before.

****Some murderers might very well consider what they're doing as wrong, and know they're taking the chance, but how do we know? ****

I don't like this type of rebute. This is the world famous "if your not one, then how can you know". Hell i've never been in space but i know an awfully lot about it. You know they know it's wrong, your just trying to patronize me....good try.

****we're getting a little off topic here I think****

Actually i think this is on point and your denial to accept the fact that people are responsible for their actions makes me somewhat worried about the next generation of mind numbed people.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: ]
    #341691 - 06/15/01 07:34 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

> there are no warranting circumstances to take another individual's life. None.

Why does killing have to be justified?



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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #341694 - 06/15/01 07:42 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

> I disagree. If they don't think it's wrong why do they flee like cowards after the fact? Because they know it's wrong.

Please read about the life of Scott "Monster" Cody. He was a gang member in LA. His young girlfriend had become pregnant and was in the hospital and about to give birth. Recently, there had beenmuch unpleasantness (some incident) with another rival gang in the area. Instead of going to the hospital to see his child be born, Scott killed a rival gang member. He walked home and watched television. He was later arrested. He by no means tried to escape after the murder; in fact he casually went home and just turned the TV on.

Perpetrators of marital violence who end up killing their spouses feel justified in their violence. They felt that their spouse had demeaned or harmed them in some way and that the only way to solve the problem was to "teach her a lesson." They hide the body or falsify the cause of death in order to avoid being put in prison.

Knowing you can go to prison for an act and attempting to elude detection for doing that act does not mean that you consider your actions morally wrong!

> You know they know it's wrong,

My point is that you can't see inside someone's head! Look at me for fucks sake! I've stated that I don't believe killing human beings is "wrong". Do you not believe me? And be assured, if I ever did commit criminal homicide I would attempt not be detected. It's a basic principle. Again, knowledge that something can land you in prison (adverse consequences) and attempting to avoid those consequences is not proof that one considers their actions morally wrong!

If you want a really good read about the mindset of perpetrators of violence read Roy F. Baumeister's _Evil: Inside Human Violence and Creulty_ (published 1997), or Aaron T. Beck's _Prisoners of Hate: The Cognitive Basis of Anger, Hostility, and Violence_. Both books models for violence include a process of justification.


and another aside:

> I don't like this type of rebute. This is the world famous "if your not one, then how can you know".

No, it was more along the lines of if you are not that one person, how can you know? Can you read minds? I think not.

> your just trying to patronize me....good try.

Please stop proscribing what I'm trying to do. Don't analyse my approach, just engage in the discussion. I get a lot of replies (not just from you) that include an analysis of my approach. My hunch is that these are attempts to discredit me.

Edited by Kid on 06/15/01 08:20 PM.



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OfflineHB
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/01
Posts: 42,528
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #350860 - 06/28/01 04:42 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

im not against the death penalty, i just believe it is the easy way out. life in prison is possibly one of the worst psychological tortures i could think of, but i dont want to spend my taxes paying for that fucker's food. he'd probably kill himself in the cell by soaking cigarette butts in his water and drinking it.

though not moral in any way, i believe tim should have been strapped down and all the victim's families could beat the shit out of him until he died. i believe that is all he deserves.

i dont like the government very much either, but im not going to go about trying to change it by killing innocent people animals and children. thats pure and utter bullshit, he shouldnt have died a painless death

We're all MADD here...


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Offlinewindex
old hand
Registered: 06/27/01
Posts: 1,293
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kid]
    #350881 - 06/28/01 05:54 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

***Timothy McVeigh is NOT your standard terrorist. Most terrorists come from other countries, other ethnic backgrounds. This was a boy who grew up in your own backyard, another "all American" that decided to kill people. ***

let me apologize if im not reading this how you ment, the internet has a way of twisted words when you read them rather then hear them.

Most terrorists come from other countries, other ethnic backgrounds.
arent they the boy who grew up in someone else backyard in the other countries? he's from the US he blew up a building in the US, how many times on the news do you hear about a terrorist blow up something (seems like they have a hatred torwad busses) from their own country?

You approach the turnstiles and know
that when you get there you have to give
the man two dollars or he won't let you
inside but when you get there everything
goes wrong.


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