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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: Frog]
    #2367397 -

great post.

good information.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2367926 -

Abortion rules and you know it.

There's no such thing as death.





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Mp3 of the month: Wild Things- Another Colored Ink Drawing (A.C.I.D.)


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Post deleted by Anno [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2370165 -


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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: ]
    #2370227 -

"Unless he realizes his hatred of gays is seeded from the fact he's one of them and couldn't come to terms with it. Then he might start riding cocks. "

do you really belive this is true in most cases?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: Trip]
    #2370803 -

Trip said:
here's how i look at it, let's face it a lot of parents today can barely take care of themselves much less a child. if someone doent want to accept the responsibulity of raising a child they shouldnt have to. why should they put their plans of the future on hold? im one to beleive that no one has the right to take the life of another(hence my arguement against the death penalty), but we're talking about here isnt a life, its a glob of devoloping tissue.


Ah, I see. Interesting that Scott Peterson is being charged with murder for killing this glob of developing tissue. Interesting that every state deems that if you kill a pregnant mother, causing the life of the parasitic nasty dirty fetii inside of her, it's murder. How odd is that? It's just a fetus! Geez.

So, for everyone who is saying that a "fetus isn't a life", let me ask you this. If I walk up to a lady who is pregnant and stick a knife in her stomach, killing the fetus, should I be charged just with the aggravated assault (or whatever specific charge the particular state has for htat), or should I be charged with that, AND murder?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2370805 -

silversoul7 said:
Quote:
contrary to claims to the contrary, the death penalty is a deterrent.


Sources? I find this hard to believe, considering how much higher the murder rate is here in America than it is in other developed countries which have banned the death penalty. How do those countries deter murder?


How, just how in the fuck, do you PROVE how good it is at deterring a crime? The FBI doesn't, to my knowledge, keep a running talley of murders not commited.

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2370808 -

silversoul7 said:
A three-year-old can and does survive outside of the womb. Therefore it is not a part of the mother's body, and has a right to its own life.



Your definition of "parasite" is only slightly changed when dealing with a young child. The mother now has to work to pay for the child's food, education etc. Without this attention, the child would die. The mother recieves nothing tangible (the joy of being a mother and contirbuting to the continuation of the species would apply even to a pregnant mother, and it's not really a tangible contribution). So, using your own argument, why can't this parasite be killed?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2370823 -

silversoul7 said:
How, just how in the fuck, do you PROVE how good it is at deterring a crime? The FBI doesn't, to my knowledge, keep a running talley of murders not commited.


well techinichly, thats the census. :tongue:

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2370989 -

TheOneYouKnow said:
silversoul7 said:
Quote:
contrary to claims to the contrary, the death penalty is a deterrent.


Sources? I find this hard to believe, considering how much higher the murder rate is here in America than it is in other developed countries which have banned the death penalty. How do those countries deter murder?


How, just how in the fuck, do you PROVE how good it is at deterring a crime? The FBI doesn't, to my knowledge, keep a running talley of murders not commited.


I didn't ask for proof. I asked for sources(i.e. evidence). Since you can't prove how good it is at deterring crime, then that would seem to favor neither side of this issue.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2370990 -

Quote:
TheOneYouKnow said:
Quote:
silversoul7 said:
A three-year-old can and does survive outside of the womb. Therefore it is not a part of the mother's body, and has a right to its own life.



Your definition of "parasite" is only slightly changed when dealing with a young child. The mother now has to work to pay for the child's food, education etc. Without this attention, the child would die. The mother recieves nothing tangible (the joy of being a mother and contirbuting to the continuation of the species would apply even to a pregnant mother, and it's not really a tangible contribution). So, using your own argument, why can't this parasite be killed?


Biologically speaking, a young infant is not a parasite, but a fetus could be classified as one. Also, the infant is not being taken care of against the mother's will.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2371015 -

par?a?site ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-st)
n.
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.



The only difference between a fetus and achild is where it exists. A child meets the above mentioned definition, except it lives outside of it's host.

Are you saying that abortion is right because a woman doesnt' want to have a parasite inside of her? Hardly, women say that they want the abortion because htey can't support the child AFTER IT IS BORN. If their is a medical complication where the child is hurting the mother, she should have the right, but VERY VERY few women use this as their justification. "I can't afford a child and have lots of money and time to spend with my friends" doesn't mean "I don't want this parasite living in me".

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2371036 -

TheOneYouKnow said:
par?a?site ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-st)
n.
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.



The only difference between a fetus and achild is where it exists. A child meets the above mentioned definition, except it lives outside of it's host.


That's more than just a trivial difference.

Quote:
Are you saying that abortion is right because a woman doesnt' want to have a parasite inside of her? Hardly, women say that they want the abortion because htey can't support the child AFTER IT IS BORN. If their is a medical complication where the child is hurting the mother, she should have the right, but VERY VERY few women use this as their justification. "I can't afford a child and have lots of money and time to spend with my friends" doesn't mean "I don't want this parasite living in me".


No I'm not saying that abortion is right because the fetus is a parasite. I'm not even saying abortion is right, though I would consider it a necessary evil. While I don't have much sympathy for women who get abortions instead of using birth control, there are many cases in which they do use birth control and it fails. It's not all that uncommon for a condom to rip. I think they should have abortion available to them as an option in such a scenario(if they can't get the morning after pill within enough time). Now that I think about it, tho, I'm inclined to agree with mushmaster's position. If they're going to get an abortion, they should get it during the first trimester, unless there are issues with the health of either the mother or the fetus.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2371047 -

silversoul7 said:
That's more than just a trivial difference.



Ok, I'll say that a born child is probably more "parasitic" to the parents then when it's in the mother still.
Quote:
No I'm not saying that abortion is right because the fetus is a parasite. I'm not even saying abortion is right, though I would consider it a necessary evil. While I don't have much sympathy for women who get abortions instead of using birth control, there are many cases in which they do use birth control and it fails. It's not all that uncommon for a condom to rip. I think they should have abortion available to them as an option in such a scenario(if they can't get the morning after pill within enough time). Now that I think about it, tho, I'm inclined to agree with mushmaster's position. If they're going to get an abortion, they should get it during the first trimester, unless there are issues with the health of either the mother or the fetus.


My only point was that your parasite argument isn't a reason for abortions. I'd say that probably no woman has ever said "I don't want to have to eat more food while I'm pregnant, letsk ill this fucker". They think of the burden a child will be after it's born, and decide to kill it before that happens. The thing is, after a child is born, their are numerous otehr options.


To use a thought of yours, wouldn't it be best to do everything possible before taking an innocent life? Sort of like negotiation before war, right? Wouldn't it be better to have the federal government and the babybutchers do everything possible to save the child, usualy through adoption, rather than option 1 being to chop it up, slurp it out with the wet-dry vac, and toss it out the back door?

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2371066 -

TheOneYouKnow said:
silversoul7 said:
That's more than just a trivial difference.



Ok, I'll say that a born child is probably more "parasitic" to the parents then when it's in the mother still.


Why? It doesn't meet the biological criteria for a parasite.

Quote:
Quote:
No I'm not saying that abortion is right because the fetus is a parasite. I'm not even saying abortion is right, though I would consider it a necessary evil. While I don't have much sympathy for women who get abortions instead of using birth control, there are many cases in which they do use birth control and it fails. It's not all that uncommon for a condom to rip. I think they should have abortion available to them as an option in such a scenario(if they can't get the morning after pill within enough time). Now that I think about it, tho, I'm inclined to agree with mushmaster's position. If they're going to get an abortion, they should get it during the first trimester, unless there are issues with the health of either the mother or the fetus.


My only point was that your parasite argument isn't a reason for abortions. I'd say that probably no woman has ever said "I don't want to have to eat more food while I'm pregnant, letsk ill this fucker". They think of the burden a child will be after it's born, and decide to kill it before that happens. The thing is, after a child is born, their are numerous otehr options.


I wasn't arguing that it's the reason women get abortions. I was saying that it's the reason why killing a fetus isn't as bad as killing a fully-developed human. Also, I realize that there are other options after a baby is born, such as adoption, but I can only imagine how painful childbirth must be. Maybe if I was a woman who had given birth I might be able to dismiss it as not being sufficient reason for getting an abortion, but being a man, I don't dare venture to trivialize the pain of childbirth. And considering that for a certain period of time a fetus can't feel pain, I would think that aborting the fetus at that stage would be significantly less painful for both mother and fetus than giving birth would.

Quote:
To use a thought of yours, wouldn't it be best to do everything possible before taking an innocent life? Sort of like negotiation before war, right? Wouldn't it be better to have the federal government and the babybutchers do everything possible to save the child, usualy through adoption, rather than option 1 being to chop it up, slurp it out with the wet-dry vac, and toss it out the back door?


Sure, but I believe that decision should be left up to the mother, not to the government.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2371179 -

silversoul7 said:
Why?  It doesn't meet the biological criteria for a parasite.



After birth the fetus requires more, and contributes the same 'nothing' to the parent.
Quote:
I wasn't arguing that it's the reason women get abortions.  I was saying that it's the reason why killing a fetus isn't as bad as killing a fully-developed human.



If I could show that a fully-developed human that I killed was a burden on society financially, would that make it morally correct?  Please say yes to this so I can implement my new WIC programs :smile:
Quote:
Sure, but I believe that decision should be left up to the mother, not to the government.


Lets say that I was a single mother.  My child of two years was becoming a great burden to me financially,I can barely afford my 2 pack of cigarettes a day habit on the minusicule amount of money I make since I couldn't go to college.  I think that the least painful thing for both of us would be for me to kill my child in a painless manner.  That way I wouldn't have the great pain of being financially challenged (which lasts much longer than childbirth) and my child wouldn't have the prolonged pain of growing up poor in America.  Do I, or do I not, have the right? Obviously I don't, but why not? The child is a burden, it can't function/survive on it's own, and the method of killing would make his life and mine less painful.

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2371188 -

I've heard that a girl losing her virginity is also quite painful, maybe if she waited to experience that pain until she was in a position to deal with the ramifications, the problem wouldn't exist to begin with.


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Opinions are like assholes; everyone needs one or else they'd explode

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2371337 -

TheOneYouKnow said:
silversoul7 said:
Why?  It doesn't meet the biological criteria for a parasite.



After birth the fetus requires more, and contributes the same 'nothing' to the parent.


But the mother voluntarily provides for the baby after birth, rather than having it suck up nutrients from her body.  You seriously don't see the difference here?

Quote:
Quote:
I wasn't arguing that it's the reason women get abortions.  I was saying that it's the reason why killing a fetus isn't as bad as killing a fully-developed human.



If I could show that a fully-developed human that I killed was a burden on society financially, would that make it morally correct?  Please say yes to this so I can implement my new WIC programs :smile:


No.  The fully-developed human is not a parasite in the biological sense of the word as he/she does not get his/her nutrients from a host organism's body.  Furthermore, a fully-developed human being has a fully-developed, fully-functional brain and central nervous system, and can feel pain.

Quote:
Quote:
Sure, but I believe that decision should be left up to the mother, not to the government.


Lets say that I was a single mother.  My child of two years was becoming a great burden to me financially,I can barely afford my 2 pack of cigarettes a day habit on the minusicule amount of money I make since I couldn't go to college.  I think that the least painful thing for both of us would be for me to kill my child in a painless manner.  That way I wouldn't have the great pain of being financially challenged (which lasts much longer than childbirth) and my child wouldn't have the prolonged pain of growing up poor in America.  Do I, or do I not, have the right? Obviously I don't, but why not? The child is a burden, it can't function/survive on it's own, and the method of killing would make his life and mine less painful.


Once the child is out of the womb, it has legal rights.  Also, if you've already gone through labor and given birth, I would think adoption would make more sense.  That said, however, there are many third-world countries in which infanticide is quite common, and as disgusting as that might seem to us, I can understand it, given the conditions those people live in.  I don't think there is really any excuse for infanticide in a developed country like the U.S., where you could give the child up for adoption.  I know what you're going to say, so let me address your next comment before you say it:  Once the child is already born, there's no more labor pains to worry about, nor any health risks to the mother.  Therefore, in such a situation, giving the child up for adoption would be the only logical answer.  In the case of an abortion, on the other hand, the fetus, if it is in the first trimester, most likely does not have a fully-functional brain and central nervous system, and it is also completely dependent specifically on the mother(no woman can adopt the fetus and carry it in her own womb).  If the mother decides not to abort but rather to carry it and give birth, then give it up for adoption, she will have to face the excruciating pain of childbirth along with the possible health risks involved in it(some women still die during childbirth).  Therefore, while she could decide to give it up for adoption, it might be less risky to get an abortion(if done professionally, not with a coat-hanger like they did when abortion was illegal).


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2371343 -

TheOneYouKnow said:
I've heard that a girl losing her virginity is also quite painful, maybe if she waited to experience that pain until she was in a position to deal with the ramifications, the problem wouldn't exist to begin with.


I've heard that it can also be quite pleasant for the girl. And as I've pointed out, birth control sometimes fails, and when that happens, you need to find a backup plan. Now, I've already said that I don't have much sympathy for women who don't use birth control in the first place and just get abortions because they're irresponsible, but considering the fact that it'd be hard to determine which ones were irresponsible and which ones were just victims of unfortunate mishaps, I'd just as soon keep the same options open to all women.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2371352 -

TheOneYouKnow said:
I've heard that a girl losing her virginity is also quite painful...


It was painful for me, so I'm sure the girls had some issues with it as well - but not enough to stop.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: A question for liberals about abortion/death penalty [Re: silversoul7]
    #2375771 -

silversoul7 said:
I've heard that it can also be quite pleasant for the girl. And as I've pointed out, birth control sometimes fails, and when that happens, you need to find a backup plan. Now, I've already said that I don't have much sympathy for women who don't use birth control in the first place and just get abortions because they're irresponsible, but considering the fact that it'd be hard to determine which ones were irresponsible and which ones were just victims of unfortunate mishaps, I'd just as soon keep the same options open to all women.


My personal feelings on abortion are analagous to yours in the Retialition thread. An abortion shouldn't be the first choice, nor should it be advertised as a first choice. IF a woman is in a situation that she doesn't want to be in, the "health clinics"*ahem* should first try to convince her to give it up for adoption. I think I've previously mentioned two couples I know that have tried for years to adopt a child. One of them finally found a girl and ended up paying her 10K$ + all of her medical bills and guaranteed that the child would have college tuititon money availble in an escrow account, the other couple ended up paying 40K$ to the mother for her child. The point is that these children aren't "unwanted". The majority of people would say that an adoption is a much better alternative to an abortion, so this would lead to a more generally preferred outcome. If the girl still insists on having an abortion, well, so be it I guess. I think that it's better for a girl to have an abortion than to be forced to have the child (tho I still place the 'blame' on the girl/father) than to bring an unwanted child into an overpopulated world. I'd say that most teenage girls that are frightend of having a child, as well as 20-35 year old women who may be working on a career or in college, would gladly take a giant financial boost from a couple that wants to adopt. In non-medical emergency or rape situations, I would think that most people who are pro-abortion would agree that it is better to have the child adopted.

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