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OfflineKriz
old hand

Registered: 10/12/99
Posts: 231
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
McVeigh/Death Penalty.
    #338092 - 06/11/01 06:08 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

How do you all feel about this one imparticular? I don't mean to debate the death penalty specifically (i plan on starting another thread involving mcveigh, on an entirely different subject), but more on this particular case. For those in other countries I'm not sure how much your media covers it, but here its all over. Basically Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist, extremely right wing (he claimed to be a libertarian if I recall), and he drove a van full of explosives up to a building in Oklahoma City, in 1996, lit the fuse and took off. The explosion killed a 168 and injured many many more. Today (june 11th) he is planned to be killed by lethal injection. That's very basic background on it, but how do you feel about it?

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)

Edited by Kriz on 06/11/01 06:17 AM.



--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #338169 - 06/11/01 08:19 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

he did state that he was a libertarian but libertarians don't go around killing innocent people. I wish they would inject him with ligter fluid and lite the coward up! Thank, God, One less dumbfuck on this Earth.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineKAL
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 13
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #338199 - 06/11/01 09:26 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I am morally, ethically and logically against the death penalty.

But if ever there was one person not worthy of living on this earth, it was McVeigh... and perhaps George Dubyah as well . . . but that's a whole different topic altogether. . .



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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #338293 - 06/11/01 11:41 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I really don't care what he did. I seem to be pretty numb to the ideas of death and murder, so I really am baffled when I see the survivors and victim's families all upset and hoping for Tim to die.

But I think time gets it easy because he has two assurances that most people do not have.

1. Time of death explicity spelled out for him.
2. Assurance that death will not be painful.



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Anonymous

Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kid]
    #338432 - 06/11/01 07:07 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'm utterly against the death penalty in the first place, and this case is no different.
1) Executing McVeigh will not bring back the loved ones lost
2) If the surviving victims need to see McVeigh die to gain 'closure' or whatever, they have some serious issues themselves. Death is what hurt them in the first place. Just as two wrongs don't make a right, two deaths aren't going to make anything any better. Seeking revenge is a sorry mentality/motivation to have.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thoughts follow my vision and dance in the sun


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: ]
    #338529 - 06/11/01 08:59 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I don't see it as revenge...i see it as a punishment that was known by Mcveigh ahead of time. i say too bad.

If that was my wife or mother i would enjoy seeing Mcveigh suffer. Only he didn't suffer...i would of set the coward on fire myself....

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePotSmokinHippie
Pothead

Registered: 04/06/01
Posts: 223
Loc: New york
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: ]
    #338530 - 06/11/01 09:00 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I generally agree with you. Pumping the dude with potassium chloride isn't gonna solve a whole lot. I think we should reform the justice system. Make prisons a living hell, no death penalty. Only rapists and killers and bad shit like that go there. That's the only way, make them suffer. Death is the easy way out.

I wish I had a Kryptonite cross, because then I could keep both Dracula AND Superman away.


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"assumption is the mother of all fuckup" - me


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Offlineaugustwest
addict
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 55
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: ]
    #338598 - 06/11/01 10:14 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

) If the surviving victims need to see McVeigh die to gain 'closure' or whatever, they have some serious issues themselves. ......
usualy I am kind
this is the stupidest thing I have ever read.
has anyone ever blown up a loved one of yours?
having a child blown up by some asshole who thinks the government is evil just might cause a few "issues"
the truth is alot of surviving victims didnt want him executed.
He killed 168 people. what is an o.k. way to punish this guy?
Life in prison? I think life in general population would be ok. but they dont put mcveigh's in general population because even criminals dont stand for people killing kids. they put him in a cozy maximum security prison to be cared for around the clock.
I agree with the death penalty exept I think it is too painless and quick.
all people who do not agree with the death penalty should not do capital crimes.




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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: augustwest]
    #338720 - 06/12/01 12:26 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> they put him in a cozy maximum security prison to be cared for around the clock.

Yeah, how cozy it is to live in a little cell without access to women, and to have no freedom for the rest of your life. People don't like jail. Jail sucks. You are lonely in prison. It is psychological torture enough. I don't know how you get off saying that prison is "cozy".

> what is an o.k. way to punish this guy?

I don't believe in punishment. It doesn't do anything. It's not an effective deterent. Criminal justice should not be about punishment. It should be about protecting society. That's why McVeigh needed to be imprisoned. You can't let him walk around, obviously. Why not keep him alive and try to learn something about the psychology of mass murderers? The motives and theories behind the militia movements? Maybe if you learned something from McVeigh you could prevent something like this from happening again. Maybe you could gain some insight into how to help society become better integrated.

Punishment is silly. People don't do things that they think are wrong. Rehabilitation (or call it by some other name, resocialization, whatever) is the key. Convince offenders that what they've done is wrong. That way they might be able to "repay their debt to society." Punishment does nothing but make another person suffer. It's a form of revenge. Justice in itself is a silly notion. The damage is already done.



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OfflinePlanet Asia
addict
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 328
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kid]
    #338830 - 06/12/01 03:11 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

so what do u suppose they should do PeachMan, set him free?



--------------------
answers, theyre never out of question



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OfflineKriz
old hand

Registered: 10/12/99
Posts: 231
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kid]
    #338837 - 06/12/01 03:18 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

Criminal justice should not be about punishment. It should be about protecting society




I agree, and if you have read any of what he's said, (pick up the book "American Terrorist" its very good), you would agree that he has no intention of changing. Keep him locked in a prison cell forever? Why? Why bother keeping someone alive in a cage? If you make a mistake typing a paper, do you highlight it and make a note to disregard it, or do you just hit delete?

In reply to:

You can't let him walk around, obviously. Why not keep him alive and try to learn something about the psychology of mass murderers? The motives and theories behind the militia movements? Maybe if you learned something from McVeigh you could prevent something like this from happening again




We DO understand his mind. Perhaps a twisted mass murder who cut apart his victims and masturbated over their corpses deserves study but not some violent terrorist. He acted on his belief that the gov't was corrupt (heh, how insane huh?) and he felt the only way to deal with the problem was to commit an act of terrorism to get his message out. He accomplished his goal, and would no doubt do it again the second he got his chance. He's your standard terrorist. Nothing special, nothing worth studying.

In reply to:

Justice in itself is a silly notion. The damage is already done.




Justice is silly? I hope you never vote ever, let alone hold political office.

~Kriz

for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


--------------------
for a good time call (847)255-0350 ask for Kriz... i'm hot and ready for action...

(yes my real phone number)


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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #338845 - 06/12/01 03:42 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

He totally needs to be get rid of. We are out of Australias though to send our criminals too. So we have to put them away. Lethal injection is the kindest way to do it.

So I'm comfortable with it. But reading coverage about it, I was disturbed. It was so clinical. But they at least let him die with dignity.

But so much kinder than the guillotene. Anyone here speak French?

Visit http://www.kiosek.com/dostoevsky/library/karamazov.txt and do a search (_Edit, Find) for Chapter 4. There is an interesting take on capitol punishment back in the day. Let me know if I got the wrong chapter. The author is wordy though don't expect him to get straight to the point.

Edited by djfrog on 06/12/01 03:44 AM.



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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: djfrog]
    #338853 - 06/12/01 03:55 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'm sorry, there are three chapter fours. Do a search for "Rebellion", it is the third chapter 4.



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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: djfrog]
    #338854 - 06/12/01 03:56 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Oh never mind which Chapter 4 it is, just search for Rebellion.



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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Hmmmm... [Re: ]
    #339005 - 06/12/01 11:01 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

PeachMan says:

"I'm utterly against the death penalty in the first place, and this case is no different. "

Why? This man KNOWINGLY gave up his rights to be treated as a human being the moment that bomb exploded. As a threat to the lives of other humans, he should -- wait, make that MUST -- be removed.

In the case of a rabid dog, the dog is destroyed. In the case of a rabid human, the human should be destroyed. There is no pragmatic difference between the two. It has nothing to do with revenge at all. We don't shoot mad dogs because we are pissed off at them and want to take revenge on them, we shoot them because they are a threat to humans.

pinky



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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Planet Asia]
    #339021 - 06/12/01 11:35 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> so what do u suppose they should do PeachMan, set him free?

I will refer you back to the post to which you are replying:

"Criminal justice should not be about punishment. It should be about protecting society. That's why McVeigh needed to be imprisoned. You can't let him walk around, obviously. "

Maybe you missed that part?

In short, the answer was, imprisonment.




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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: McVeigh/Death Penalty. [Re: Kriz]
    #339022 - 06/12/01 11:40 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> He's your standard terrorist.

Timothy McVeigh is NOT your standard terrorist. Most terrorists come from other countries, other ethnic backgrounds. This was a boy who grew up in your own backyard, another "all American" that decided to kill people.

> Justice is silly? I hope you never vote ever

Too late, I vote in every election.

I hope you learn how to reply in full instead of half-assed answers.



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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Phred]
    #339023 - 06/12/01 11:44 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> This man KNOWINGLY gave up his rights to be treated as a human being the moment that bomb exploded.

Maybe legally...

> As a threat to the lives of other humans, he should -- wait, make that MUST -- be removed.

Okay, so lock him up. Put him in solitary for the rest of his life.

> In the case of a rabid dog, the dog is destroyed. In the case of a rabid human, the human should be destroyed.

Timothy McVeigh did not have rabies.

> It has nothing to do with revenge at all.

Punishing adults is either about revenge or about misguided efforts to correct behaviour.

> We don't shoot mad dogs because we are pissed off at them and want to take revenge on them, we shoot them because they are a threat to humans.

McVeigh was not insane.

He could have been left in solitary.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Kid]
    #339055 - 06/12/01 01:04 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Are there any absolutes in your life? If so could you tell us?

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Hmmmm... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #339070 - 06/12/01 01:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> Are there any absolutes in your life? If so could you tell us?

Objection, your Honor! Would consel please explain where this line of questioning is going?



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