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OfflineEllis Dee
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Abortion.
    #518896 - 01/13/02 12:06 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Science says that life begins at conception. Killing this human life is murder just as the unjust killing of an grown adult is. They are both taking a human life.

What are your views on abortion? And if you're Pro-abortion how do you justify your position in spite of science?


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Edited by Ellis Dee (01/13/02 02:29 AM)


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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #518924 - 01/13/02 12:47 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I think abortion is wrong. I don't eat meat or endorse murder, so I definitely would'nt be behind the murder of a baby. People who make decisions like that are obvious immature and non spiritual when it comes to aspects involving infedility and non marriage sexual relations. I think that this country has become way to liberal. I broke up with a girl I dated before just because of the fact that she had two abortions. What a slut. I told her if i got her pregnent I would keep the kid and raise it no matter what our relationship came too. Now though I have recieved my vasectomy and further from ever having sex and sexual relations then ever before. This is very good. Just like how saturated fat can inhibit brain cells, so can sexual desires.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #518937 - 01/13/02 01:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Not wanting to get too deeply into this bag of worms, I must correct your mis-statement.

"Murder" is a term that applies only to humans, not to a single cell, fertilized or unfertilized. "Science" does NOT say that a fertilized egg is a human. Science says it is a living human cell that now has the potential to eventually divide into two cells. Before it was fertilized, it did not possess that potential. Destroying that cell is hardly "killing this human life", any more than removing an appendix is.

From a strictly scientific point of view, one could argue that removing an appendix is worse, since it involves the destruction of billions of cells as opposed to one.

Those who support a woman's right to have an abortion are not doing so "in spite of science".

If you want to get into a debate on abortion, that's your right. But don't misrepresent the scientific viewpoint and expect to have it slide by.

You ask the pro-abortionists to justify their position. When are YOU going to justify your position that it is moral to murder adults who perform consensual sex acts with others of the same sex. Is this not "unjust killing of grown adults"?

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (01/13/02 01:07 AM)


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #518944 - 01/13/02 01:11 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, I am fascinated by this "Science says that life begins at conception" line. Please explain.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Phred]
    #518978 - 01/13/02 02:10 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

A sperm is a cell. An egg is a cell. At fertilization, the DNA of a single sperm and ovum merge to create the genetic blueprint for a new human being. Once the DNA has recombined and the single-celled ovum begins to divide, it is called a zygote. The first two cells of the developing zygote already have a designated -- though not entirely certain -- function. One new cell will grow and divide towards becoming the embryo, while the other will eventually develop into the amnion, chorion, and placenta, the embryo's 'support system'

A 'zygote' is a seperate living being which is one celled at first, a human being. Dr. James Watson, (the co-discoverer of DNA) even pointed out that once conception takes place it is the only cell in the woman's body which is not hers. Conception marks the beginning of a new individual life. Human life begins at conception as the single celled 'zygote'.

This is biology. It is science and fact.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisibleisis
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #519061 - 01/13/02 04:07 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I believe in the right to choose. I do realize that an embryo is made up of living cells, but it is incapable of surviving on it's own. I do not consider an embryo a human but rather a group of cells that one day could possibly become a living human being. It has the potential but it also has no guarantee of being born. No promise of being delivered alive for that matter. Those are the laws of nature- not mine. Though I myself would not have an abortion, it is not for me to tell someone else what to do with their body. I do not consider it murder for, as I stated, an embryo has no guarantees of being born alive anyways. The reason I would not have an abortion, is because I would want the baby. However in the case of rape,if the baby had a severe birth defect or if I became very ill, I would have to reconsider.I'm not saying I would have an abortion, but Iam saying that I don't know what I would do. Either way,it should not be your decison or anyone else's, but rather mine.
Child birth is a dangerous thing for both the unborn baby and the mother. Many abortion proponents would force a woman to have a child even if the child is the product of rape. (Or even if the child had severe birth defects ) The way I look at it, these decisions are way too big to be forced on a person.
If there were no abortion in the world, what exactly would you do with all these unwanted children? Adoptions?There's millions of kids now waiting to be adopted, and no one is adopting them. Of course you wouldn't want the gay,single, or anything short of the traditional family to adopt any of them out.So, that leaves a smaller pool of families available to adopt them.
Rail gun, I do find it very interesting that many people that are against abortion are also the first one to yell "kill them" when it comes to capital punishment. I just do not understand that. If life is so sacred that an unborn child must be protected at all cost, then why not all life. Is the adult life less sacred. One could come back and say well they committed a crime. So,they are guilty and deserve to die.We all know though that not everyone on death row is guilty. Actually, we all now that a number of them are innocent. So, maybe you can explain this to me, because it confuses me. Why is not "all" life sacred to you.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #519064 - 01/13/02 04:13 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"Science says that life begins at conception."

CONCEPTION takes place once an egg cell is fertilized. A fertilized egg (zygote) may not ever divide, and even once it does begin to divide, it may cease further development at any point along the way. By insisting that each zygote is a human being, you are perforce insisting that a blastocyst spontaneously expelled from the womb is also a human being. Science would disagree with you.

And, as you pointed out, a zygote is a genetic blueprint, not a human being. The blueprint for a house is not a house.

"A 'zygote' is a seperate living being which is one celled at first, a human being."

A zygote is NOT a human being, by any scientific definition of the term 'human being'. Science does not say it is a human being; that is precisely WHY science calls it a ZYGOTE, rather than an infant or a fetus or even a blastocyst... to differentiate between the two.

You make an enormous (and erroneous) leap by equating POTENTIAL with ACTUALITY.

Further, it is even incorrect to call that zygote a "separate living being". The zygote of a fish or frog or other oviparous animal can and normally will develop into an adult separately, completely outside the body of the female. The zygote of a fish truly is a separate living entity. But the zygote of a human (or any other mammal) cannot in nature develop outside the womb. No womb, no living being, potential or actual.

"Dr. James Watson, (the co-discoverer of DNA) even pointed out that once conception takes place it is the only cell in the woman's body which is not hers."

Dr. Watson was not "Science", he was a single scientist. And, like all individual scientists, he had the capacity to be mistaken.

"Conception marks the beginning of a new individual life. Human life begins at conception as the single celled 'zygote'."

All human beings in existence were once zygotes, true. But the zygote of a human is no more a human being than a fertilized fish egg is a fish.

Many scientists will admit that there is a possible case to be made for classifying a fetus ready to be born as a human being, even though it is as yet still in the womb. This is why physicians will perform Caesarian sections, after all.

But very few scientists will classify a zygote as a human being. Certainly none of the biologists I have encountered personally would do so. Those who DO classify zygotes as human beings admit that they are doing so out of purely personal beliefs, not out of scientific principle.

pinky


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InvisiblePynchon
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Phred]
    #519075 - 01/13/02 04:28 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Good post.


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Offlinemm.
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #519179 - 01/13/02 08:06 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I used to be very much pro-choice. I thought surely it was better to abort a feotus, yet to experience reality, than it was to have an unwanted child, who perhaps could not be cared for properly. Clearly, it seemed that science pointed to life begining at birth. There is only so much biology and chemistry can tell us about this though. Stanislav Grof, a psychologist who did a lot of work with LSD, identifed memories of birth trauma as having sigificant effects on someones life. There is an area of psychotherapy called primal therapy which involves attempts to resolve trauma experienced during conception, fallopian implantation, and other times during the prenatal stage. I am not claiming that life does begin before birth, just that it's clear that reductionist science cannot tell us when consciousness begins in the fetus - there is now way of objectively measuring it. The only way we might be able to tell is through psychotherapy. The majority of the psychotheraputic evidence I have examined so far does seem to indicate that pre an perinatal experiences do have effects in later life. Given that, I dont think abortion is something to be taken so lightly.



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InvisiblePGF
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #519193 - 01/13/02 09:16 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I kill many lives (cells) each and everytime I spray Lysol at my toilet. Who knows? One of those single celled turd eating things could grow up to be just like president Bush Jr.!!

Look, I am no big fan of abortion, but I've sponsored it a few times in my life. It's a tough decision, best made by the pregnant person and supported by the sperm doner.

I am a big fan of contraception and feel that if that fat guy with the funny white hat would tell all his brainwashed peoples that it's ok to use contraception, this world would be a little happier. I guess priests don't mind not using contraception because they can't get 13 year old boys pregnant. jk, had to slip that one in there.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger


Edited by PGF (01/13/02 09:20 AM)


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #519969 - 01/14/02 02:04 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Anonymous]
    #520186 - 01/14/02 09:36 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

****Being an atheist, I say abortion is A-ok. If you're religious I can understand why you'd have a problem with abortion but you're still a nutter. ****

oh...and believing in nothing (ie: atheism) isn't being a nutter?

those that believe in nothing, will believe in anything....incurably ignorant


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
    #520192 - 01/14/02 09:41 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

****Look, I am no big fan of abortion, but I've sponsored it a few times in my life. It's a tough decision****

It's not a tough decision...it's a cowardly one. Anyone can abort

****I am a big fan of contraception and feel that if that fat guy with the funny white hat would tell all his brainwashed peoples that it's ok to use contraception, this world would be a little happier****

I believe in contraception and i'm catholic. It's too bad you're too ignorant to realize that we (people who believe in God) have the ability to think for ourselves. As a matter of fact i would bet that a majority of unwanted children are from crack laddin non believers as opposed to those that are christian.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisiblePGF
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #520261 - 01/14/02 11:11 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hey, I believe in God. I also believe in myself enough to make my own decisions. I also believe that a woman can abort a fetus as she wishes. Simple. I don't think it's cowardly.

Also, the majority of abortions take place on middle to upper class women. Most poor people just have the kids so they can collect more welfare $.

The same religion that tells you that abortion is murder also believes that masterbation is evil and contraception is wrong. I didn't make up this wacky religion where a man with a funny hat tells people that all these things are evil yet condones priests who engage in homosexual acts and child molestation, so do not get mad at me for pointing them out.



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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
    #520291 - 01/14/02 11:44 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

****I also believe that a woman can abort a fetus as she wishes. Simple. I don't think it's cowardly. ****

sure it is..it's the easy way out....

****Also, the majority of abortions take place on middle to upper class women. ***

i'd like to see a stat on that...do you have it? I would say lower to middle would be the most but i have no stats to back that up but using common sense would be a nice guide

****Most poor people just have the kids so they can collect more welfare $. ****

I'll take that as sarcasm because you can't be serious.

****so do not get mad at me for pointing them out. ****

I'm not mad. I don't agree with a lot of what the pope says because he's just a man. This sedament is prevalent within the Catholic church and is growing. As i am not an active member anymore i can't speak for the church but i can asure you noone accepts homo priests that molest children....except NAMBLA


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisiblePGF
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #520366 - 01/14/02 01:00 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"As i am not an active member anymore i can't speak for the church but i can asure you noone accepts homo priests that molest children....except NAMBLA "

How about the church for one. They have never issued an official reprimand to a child molesting priest in their history. Apparently, they're keeping the Roman in roman catholic.

Poor people tend to not spend their money on abortions simply beause they can not afford to do so. Abortions in this country are not free. I think I payed $300 each time. Look up the statistics at the statistic site and you'll see that most women who receive abortions are middle to upper middle class.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #520405 - 01/14/02 01:35 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"oh...and believing in nothing (ie: atheism) isn't being a nutter?

those that believe in nothing, will believe in anything....incurably ignorant "

That statement itself is ignorant. Generalizing large groups of people is always going to land you in some trouble, but it helps if your generalization is at least somewhat on target.

I'm thinking of examples of people who bought into ludicrous ideas....like Waco....Heaven's Gate....hmmm, none of those groups were athiest in nature.

Being an athiest is often only believing in what you see and what can be proven. Not believing in stuff that doesn't have a logical base in reality.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
    #520408 - 01/14/02 01:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

***How about the church for one. ***

never heard of them

****They have never issued an official reprimand to a child molesting priest in their history***

neither have I...does that mean i am pro-child molester?

****I think I payed $300 each time.****

you must feel proud

****Look up the statistics at the statistic site and you'll see that most women who receive abortions are middle to upper middle class. ****

care to supply a link?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Captain Jack]
    #520412 - 01/14/02 01:43 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

****That statement itself is ignorant. Generalizing large groups of people is always going to land you in some trouble, but it helps if your generalization is at least somewhat on target. ****

it would also help if you knew the context..demonstrate ubsurdity with absurdity....apparently i wasn't absurd enough.

****Being an athiest is often only believing in what you see and what can be proven. ****

yeah..that's it....shheesshh....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Anonymous]
    #520449 - 01/14/02 02:36 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

bigidiot: That was George Carlin who said that.


As for me: I'm pro-abortion. I don't believe in death, so I don't see the fetus's as "dying". I see the fetus's as "going back to the essence" with God.

There are far too many people on this planet right now. People need to stop having babies. I applaud people who get abortions.

As Bill Maher said "we're not rebuilding after the flood here people".


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