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 Ellis Dee
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 Abortion. 
#518896 - 01/12/02 10:06 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Science says that life begins at conception. Killing this human life is murder just as the unjust killing of an grown adult is. They are both taking a human life.
What are your views on abortion? And if you're Pro-abortion how do you justify your position in spite of science?
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Edited by Ellis Dee (01/13/02 12:29 AM)
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nugsarenice
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 Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#518924 - 01/12/02 10:47 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think abortion is wrong. I don't eat meat or endorse murder, so I definitely would'nt be behind the murder of a baby. People who make decisions like that are obvious immature and non spiritual when it comes to aspects involving infedility and non marriage sexual relations. I think that this country has become way to liberal. I broke up with a girl I dated before just because of the fact that she had two abortions. What a slut. I told her if i got her pregnent I would keep the kid and raise it no matter what our relationship came too. Now though I have recieved my vasectomy and further from ever having sex and sexual relations then ever before. This is very good. Just like how saturated fat can inhibit brain cells, so can sexual desires.
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Phred
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#518937 - 01/12/02 11:02 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Not wanting to get too deeply into this bag of worms, I must correct your mis-statement.
"Murder" is a term that applies only to humans, not to a single cell, fertilized or unfertilized. "Science" does NOT say that a fertilized egg is a human. Science says it is a living human cell that now has the potential to eventually divide into two cells. Before it was fertilized, it did not possess that potential. Destroying that cell is hardly "killing this human life", any more than removing an appendix is.
From a strictly scientific point of view, one could argue that removing an appendix is worse, since it involves the destruction of billions of cells as opposed to one.
Those who support a woman's right to have an abortion are not doing so "in spite of science".
If you want to get into a debate on abortion, that's your right. But don't misrepresent the scientific viewpoint and expect to have it slide by.
You ask the pro-abortionists to justify their position. When are YOU going to justify your position that it is moral to murder adults who perform consensual sex acts with others of the same sex. Is this not "unjust killing of grown adults"?
pinky
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Edited by pinksharkmark (01/12/02 11:07 PM)
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 Captain Jack
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 Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#518944 - 01/12/02 11:11 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes, I am fascinated by this "Science says that life begins at conception" line. Please explain.
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Phred]
#518978 - 01/13/02 12:10 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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A sperm is a cell. An egg is a cell. At fertilization, the DNA of a single sperm and ovum merge to create the genetic blueprint for a new human being. Once the DNA has recombined and the single-celled ovum begins to divide, it is called a zygote. The first two cells of the developing zygote already have a designated -- though not entirely certain -- function. One new cell will grow and divide towards becoming the embryo, while the other will eventually develop into the amnion, chorion, and placenta, the embryo's 'support system'
A 'zygote' is a seperate living being which is one celled at first, a human being. Dr. James Watson, (the co-discoverer of DNA) even pointed out that once conception takes place it is the only cell in the woman's body which is not hers. Conception marks the beginning of a new individual life. Human life begins at conception as the single celled 'zygote'.
This is biology. It is science and fact.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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isis
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#519061 - 01/13/02 02:07 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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I believe in the right to choose. I do realize that an embryo is made up of living cells, but it is incapable of surviving on it's own. I do not consider an embryo a human but rather a group of cells that one day could possibly become a living human being. It has the potential but it also has no guarantee of being born. No promise of being delivered alive for that matter. Those are the laws of nature- not mine. Though I myself would not have an abortion, it is not for me to tell someone else what to do with their body. I do not consider it murder for, as I stated, an embryo has no guarantees of being born alive anyways. The reason I would not have an abortion, is because I would want the baby. However in the case of rape,if the baby had a severe birth defect or if I became very ill, I would have to reconsider.I'm not saying I would have an abortion, but Iam saying that I don't know what I would do. Either way,it should not be your decison or anyone else's, but rather mine.
Child birth is a dangerous thing for both the unborn baby and the mother. Many abortion proponents would force a woman to have a child even if the child is the product of rape. (Or even if the child had severe birth defects ) The way I look at it, these decisions are way too big to be forced on a person.
If there were no abortion in the world, what exactly would you do with all these unwanted children? Adoptions?There's millions of kids now waiting to be adopted, and no one is adopting them. Of course you wouldn't want the gay,single, or anything short of the traditional family to adopt any of them out.So, that leaves a smaller pool of families available to adopt them.
Rail gun, I do find it very interesting that many people that are against abortion are also the first one to yell "kill them" when it comes to capital punishment. I just do not understand that. If life is so sacred that an unborn child must be protected at all cost, then why not all life. Is the adult life less sacred. One could come back and say well they committed a crime. So,they are guilty and deserve to die.We all know though that not everyone on death row is guilty. Actually, we all now that a number of them are innocent. So, maybe you can explain this to me, because it confuses me. Why is not "all" life sacred to you.
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Phred
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#519064 - 01/13/02 02:13 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Science says that life begins at conception."
CONCEPTION takes place once an egg cell is fertilized. A fertilized egg (zygote) may not ever divide, and even once it does begin to divide, it may cease further development at any point along the way. By insisting that each zygote is a human being, you are perforce insisting that a blastocyst spontaneously expelled from the womb is also a human being. Science would disagree with you.
And, as you pointed out, a zygote is a genetic blueprint, not a human being. The blueprint for a house is not a house.
"A 'zygote' is a seperate living being which is one celled at first, a human being."
A zygote is NOT a human being, by any scientific definition of the term 'human being'. Science does not say it is a human being; that is precisely WHY science calls it a ZYGOTE, rather than an infant or a fetus or even a blastocyst... to differentiate between the two.
You make an enormous (and erroneous) leap by equating POTENTIAL with ACTUALITY.
Further, it is even incorrect to call that zygote a "separate living being". The zygote of a fish or frog or other oviparous animal can and normally will develop into an adult separately, completely outside the body of the female. The zygote of a fish truly is a separate living entity. But the zygote of a human (or any other mammal) cannot in nature develop outside the womb. No womb, no living being, potential or actual.
"Dr. James Watson, (the co-discoverer of DNA) even pointed out that once conception takes place it is the only cell in the woman's body which is not hers."
Dr. Watson was not "Science", he was a single scientist. And, like all individual scientists, he had the capacity to be mistaken.
"Conception marks the beginning of a new individual life. Human life begins at conception as the single celled 'zygote'."
All human beings in existence were once zygotes, true. But the zygote of a human is no more a human being than a fertilized fish egg is a fish.
Many scientists will admit that there is a possible case to be made for classifying a fetus ready to be born as a human being, even though it is as yet still in the womb. This is why physicians will perform Caesarian sections, after all.
But very few scientists will classify a zygote as a human being. Certainly none of the biologists I have encountered personally would do so. Those who DO classify zygotes as human beings admit that they are doing so out of purely personal beliefs, not out of scientific principle.
pinky
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Pynchon
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Phred]
#519075 - 01/13/02 02:28 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good post.
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mm.
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#519179 - 01/13/02 06:06 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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I used to be very much pro-choice. I thought surely it was better to abort a feotus, yet to experience reality, than it was to have an unwanted child, who perhaps could not be cared for properly. Clearly, it seemed that science pointed to life begining at birth. There is only so much biology and chemistry can tell us about this though. Stanislav Grof, a psychologist who did a lot of work with LSD, identifed memories of birth trauma as having sigificant effects on someones life. There is an area of psychotherapy called primal therapy which involves attempts to resolve trauma experienced during conception, fallopian implantation, and other times during the prenatal stage. I am not claiming that life does begin before birth, just that it's clear that reductionist science cannot tell us when consciousness begins in the fetus - there is now way of objectively measuring it. The only way we might be able to tell is through psychotherapy. The majority of the psychotheraputic evidence I have examined so far does seem to indicate that pre an perinatal experiences do have effects in later life. Given that, I dont think abortion is something to be taken so lightly.
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MAPS.org: supporting psychedelic and medical marijuana research since 1986
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PGF
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#519193 - 01/13/02 07:16 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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I kill many lives (cells) each and everytime I spray Lysol at my toilet. Who knows? One of those single celled turd eating things could grow up to be just like president Bush Jr.!!
Look, I am no big fan of abortion, but I've sponsored it a few times in my life. It's a tough decision, best made by the pregnant person and supported by the sperm doner.
I am a big fan of contraception and feel that if that fat guy with the funny white hat would tell all his brainwashed peoples that it's ok to use contraception, this world would be a little happier. I guess priests don't mind not using contraception because they can't get 13 year old boys pregnant. jk, had to slip that one in there.
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***The Real Shroomery nigger
Edited by PGF (01/13/02 07:20 AM)
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Anonymous
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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Ellis Dee]
#519969 - 01/14/02 12:04 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Innvertigo
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 Re: Abortion. [Re: Anonymous]
#520186 - 01/14/02 07:36 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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****Being an atheist, I say abortion is A-ok. If you're religious I can understand why you'd have a problem with abortion but you're still a nutter. ****
oh...and believing in nothing (ie: atheism) isn't being a nutter?
those that believe in nothing, will believe in anything....incurably ignorant
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Innvertigo
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Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
#520192 - 01/14/02 07:41 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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****Look, I am no big fan of abortion, but I've sponsored it a few times in my life. It's a tough decision****
It's not a tough decision...it's a cowardly one. Anyone can abort
****I am a big fan of contraception and feel that if that fat guy with the funny white hat would tell all his brainwashed peoples that it's ok to use contraception, this world would be a little happier****
I believe in contraception and i'm catholic. It's too bad you're too ignorant to realize that we (people who believe in God) have the ability to think for ourselves. As a matter of fact i would bet that a majority of unwanted children are from crack laddin non believers as opposed to those that are christian.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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PGF
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Hey, I believe in God. I also believe in myself enough to make my own decisions. I also believe that a woman can abort a fetus as she wishes. Simple. I don't think it's cowardly.
Also, the majority of abortions take place on middle to upper class women. Most poor people just have the kids so they can collect more welfare $.
The same religion that tells you that abortion is murder also believes that masterbation is evil and contraception is wrong. I didn't make up this wacky religion where a man with a funny hat tells people that all these things are evil yet condones priests who engage in homosexual acts and child molestation, so do not get mad at me for pointing them out.
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***The Real Shroomery nigger
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Innvertigo
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Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
#520291 - 01/14/02 09:44 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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****I also believe that a woman can abort a fetus as she wishes. Simple. I don't think it's cowardly. ****
sure it is..it's the easy way out....
****Also, the majority of abortions take place on middle to upper class women. ***
i'd like to see a stat on that...do you have it? I would say lower to middle would be the most but i have no stats to back that up but using common sense would be a nice guide
****Most poor people just have the kids so they can collect more welfare $. ****
I'll take that as sarcasm because you can't be serious.
****so do not get mad at me for pointing them out. ****
I'm not mad. I don't agree with a lot of what the pope says because he's just a man. This sedament is prevalent within the Catholic church and is growing. As i am not an active member anymore i can't speak for the church but i can asure you noone accepts homo priests that molest children....except NAMBLA
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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PGF
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"As i am not an active member anymore i can't speak for the church but i can asure you noone accepts homo priests that molest children....except NAMBLA "
How about the church for one. They have never issued an official reprimand to a child molesting priest in their history. Apparently, they're keeping the Roman in roman catholic.
Poor people tend to not spend their money on abortions simply beause they can not afford to do so. Abortions in this country are not free. I think I payed $300 each time. Look up the statistics at the statistic site and you'll see that most women who receive abortions are middle to upper middle class.
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***The Real Shroomery nigger
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Captain Jack
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"oh...and believing in nothing (ie: atheism) isn't being a nutter?
those that believe in nothing, will believe in anything....incurably ignorant "
That statement itself is ignorant. Generalizing large groups of people is always going to land you in some trouble, but it helps if your generalization is at least somewhat on target.
I'm thinking of examples of people who bought into ludicrous ideas....like Waco....Heaven's Gate....hmmm, none of those groups were athiest in nature.
Being an athiest is often only believing in what you see and what can be proven. Not believing in stuff that doesn't have a logical base in reality.
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Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.
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Innvertigo
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Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
#520408 - 01/14/02 11:37 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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***How about the church for one. ***
never heard of them
****They have never issued an official reprimand to a child molesting priest in their history***
neither have I...does that mean i am pro-child molester?
****I think I payed $300 each time.****
you must feel proud
****Look up the statistics at the statistic site and you'll see that most women who receive abortions are middle to upper middle class. ****
care to supply a link?
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
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****That statement itself is ignorant. Generalizing large groups of people is always going to land you in some trouble, but it helps if your generalization is at least somewhat on target. ****
it would also help if you knew the context..demonstrate ubsurdity with absurdity....apparently i wasn't absurd enough.
****Being an athiest is often only believing in what you see and what can be proven. ****
yeah..that's it....shheesshh....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Learyfan
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Anonymous]
#520449 - 01/14/02 12:36 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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bigidiot: That was George Carlin who said that.
As for me: I'm pro-abortion. I don't believe in death, so I don't see the fetus's as "dying". I see the fetus's as "going back to the essence" with God.
There are far too many people on this planet right now. People need to stop having babies. I applaud people who get abortions.
As Bill Maher said "we're not rebuilding after the flood here people".
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Ellis Dee
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The church hasn't issued public repremands to priests that have molested kids. That is now handled by secret church tribunals in rome to avoid negative publicity as much as possible. A lot of priests have been booted out of the priesthood for child molestation, a recent case in the boston dioceese is an example of a priest being removed from the priesthood for that.
I tend to believe that more abortions take place in upper class areas than poor families. Just look at typical american high schools. The hich high schools have students without a lot of babies. The poorer high schools have students thta have a lot of kids. A lot of upper middle class families are upper middle class instead of lower middle class because they have aborted children and liberally exercise birth control in order to avoid having expensive extra mouths to feed so that they can maintain their lifestyles.
LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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isis
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#520870 - 01/14/02 07:50 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Glad to hear the church is finally taking some action against that type of practice. Sure beats slapping the priest hand and relocating him to another location were he can molest more little boys. That was how they used to deal with it privately.
Here are some abortion staistics. Iam not sure how current these are.
Fact Sheet: Who Has Abortions?
"There aren?t ?women who have abortions? and ?women who have babies?. Those are the same women at different points in their lives." - Rachel Atkins, PA, MPH, Executive Director, Vermont Women?s Health Center
Women of all ages, races, ethnic, economic and religious backgrounds have abortions for many different reasons every year; each reason is as compelling and legitimate as the next. Women have abortions because their contraceptive methods fail, because of their health, age, rape, because they cannot afford a child, or because they don?t feel ready to become a parent at the time of the unplanned pregnancy.
43% of American women will have at least one abortion by the age of 45.1
6 in 10 women seeking abortions experienced contraceptive failure.1
Each year 3 out of 100 women between ages 15-44 have abortions; 47% of these will have had at least one prior abortion and 55% will have had a previous birth.1
1 out of 6 abortion patients describes herself as born-again or an evangelical Christian. 33% of women who have abortions and disclose their religious affiliation describe themselves as Catholic.2
70% of U.S. abortions are obtained by white women, 20% of U.S. abortions are obtained by black women, and 10% are obtained by other women of color.3
26% of women receiving abortions are 11 - 19 years old.2
61% of teens having abortions do so with their parents? knowledge.4
31% of women obtaining abortions are in school; 68% of women who have abortions are employed.2
33% of women who obtain abortions have family incomes under $11,000 annually, 11% of abortions are obtained by women whose household incomes are $50,000 or more. Poor women are three times more likely to have abortions than those who are financially better off.2
Sources: 1 "Facts in Brief: Induced Abortion", Alan Guttmacher Institute, 1996, 2 "Women Who Have Abortions, National Abortion Federation, Oct. 1990, 3 Loretta Ross, "Emergency Memorandum to Women of Color" in From Abortion to Reproductive Freedom, p. 149., 4 "Abortion in the U.S.", Guttmacher, 1993.
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Site contents and HTML ? Copyright 1998-2001, Abortion Access Project. All rights reserved.
Edited by isis (01/14/02 08:10 PM)
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isis
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Re: Abortion. [Re: isis]
#520897 - 01/14/02 08:15 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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IMO comparing a zygote to a human is like saying an acorn is a oak tree. I see the zygote as having the potential to become a human but not yet a human. Scientifically speaking , an acorn has all of the genetic material to become a oak tree, but that does not guarrantee that it will become one. Same with a zygote. It has all the genetic material needed, but it has a long way to go before it is a human being.
Edited by isis (01/14/02 11:07 PM)
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Anonymous
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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: isis]
#520981 - 01/14/02 09:29 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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isis
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Anonymous]
#520993 - 01/14/02 09:38 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Look it up yourself. I'm just pointing out the numbers posted on many a web page. Do some research and see if that is correct. Post the results of your research so that we may be informed.
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Phred
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Acorns and pine trees [Re: isis]
#521079 - 01/14/02 10:51 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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isis writes:
"Scientifically speaking , an acorn has all of the genetic material to become a pine tree..."
Actually, an acorn has all the genetic potential to become an OAK, not a pine.
pinky
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isis
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Re: Acorns and pine trees [Re: Phred]
#521096 - 01/14/02 11:05 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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LOL. That just goes to show I don't know a thing about trees.Thanks.
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Anonymous]
#521457 - 01/15/02 04:50 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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In reply to:
43% of American women will have at least one abortion by the age of 45
I don't believe for a minute that 43% of women will have an abortion. I think the statistics are skewed by women that have multiple abortions. There are some women that will have 20 or more abortions over their life and the statistics likely count them as an average of all women, not the few that have the majority of them. The women that have abortions are likely to have multiple abortions over their life times. I'm sure that the number of abortions and the number of women were just averaged together to those listed statistics.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Innvertigo
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 Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#521586 - 01/15/02 07:13 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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i personally couldn't date, let alone have a serious relationship with a woman who has had an abortion (barring incest and rape, mind you) I just think it's discusting. This is a circular argument that has started many times and the country is pretty split 50/50 for and against. I say if a woman wants to murder her baby then fine do it, but don't expect me or other tax payers to finance it i put the guilt on your sholders. Don't come whinning in some abortion discussion group how you wish you wouldn't of done it and it's a brave choice. It's a cowardly selfish choice. Your the one who'll have to explain it to God not me. But in that same vain is it intollerant to oppose this "right of woman to choose"? (first off right to choose is a bad name for it since choice isn't the issue)...
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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isis
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#522144 - 01/16/02 07:35 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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It very well could be skewed. That does sound like a hell of a high number.
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isis
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#522145 - 01/16/02 07:37 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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It very well could be skewed. That does sound like a hell of a high number. ..
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StankyBitch
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Re: Abortion. [Re: isis]
#522157 - 01/16/02 08:12 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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I really hate this kind of topic. I am taking a comparative religion class and we have only discussed drugs thus far. I can only dread the day that we discuss abortion. I hate the view that there is ONE absolute truth. I cannot understnad that statement. Everyone has different cells and therfore perceives things differently (including identical twins). Therefore, no two people perceive truth as being the exact same thing. Symbols are a very important part of life. Words are symbols. The word "Car" is NOT the same as the tangible hunk of metal that people drive around everyday. I hope you guys understand what I am trying to say when I discuss symbols. Anyway, I think people who don't listen to other people's ideas are the ones who are the worst (Pro-choice or not). This website is GREAT becuase people can discuss things openly. I believe that a person grows CONSIDERABLY by interacting with other people that challenge them. I really do not know what I would do if my GF got pregnant. I hope it does not happen because she is on Birth Control and I were condoms with spermicide. It is EXTREMELY tempting to be stupid about sex, but I try to think rational. Do I really want to be emotionally responsible for somone for the rest of my life (or at least for the next 18-21 years)? Do I want to kill something that could be viewed as a human being? I would say nay to both of those answers. That is why I think before I have my 30 second orgasm. I hope I never have to make the abortion decision. BY the way, in cases of rape, I believe an abortion is okay or if the mother is extremely ill. THe child can't live without the mother (usually). Well, I'm done, so some asshole can tear me to shreds, I'm ready to grow... :-)
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StankyBitch
member
Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 186
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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I apologize for not proof reading my last post.
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PGF
square
Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
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I say if a woman wants to murder her baby then fine do it, but don't expect me or other tax payers to finance it i put the guilt on your sholders.
It's good to see you are pro-choice Rail_Gun.
And, as stated before, abortion clinics are not tax-payer subsidized. Your taxes do not go to killing innocent cells.
Don't come whinning in some abortion discussion group how you wish you wouldn't of done it and it's a brave choice.
That's a freedom of choice people have. As long as the host of the chat or discussion group does not ban the person, they are allowed to whine about it or sing it's praises to all who would listen. You have the choice of ignoring it.
Abortion is Fun. Enjoy it.
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***The Real Shroomery nigger
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 6 years, 7 days
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Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
#522745 - 01/16/02 06:17 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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>>>It's good to see you are pro-choice Rail_Gun.
I am not pro-abortion. Abortion should be considered first degree premeditated murder with a life sentence or death penalty like it used to be before Roe V. Wade as far as I'm concerned. Abortion is MURDER.
LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 6 years, 7 days
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Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
#522747 - 01/16/02 06:19 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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>>>Abortion is Fun. Enjoy it.
How could someone enjoy somthing so evil as infanticide? It would take a real sicko to enjoy murder.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
#522804 - 01/16/02 07:25 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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****It's good to see you are pro-choice Rail_Gun.****
actually i am pro-choice..i choose not to murder babies. Any woman that has an abortion in my book is damaged goods...i don't care if you were young and stupid..the only difference from when you were young and stupid then is that your old now..nothing has changed.
don't confuse Rail_Gun with myself...we are entirely different persona's
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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PGF
square
Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
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yeah I know you are different...it's just the gun by your name.
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***The Real Shroomery nigger
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Anonymous
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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Innvertigo]
#523041 - 01/16/02 11:54 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Anonymous]
#523238 - 01/17/02 06:39 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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LOL...i should of saw that coming..they are still skanky in my book...
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 6 years, 7 days
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Innvertigo, if a woman has had an abortion and regrets it greatly and is genuinly repentant for it would that make any difference to you? It surely would for me.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#523547 - 01/17/02 01:42 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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it would be tough because it's against my beliefs. Don't confuse my comments with the hatred towards that person because i don't hate those that have an abortion. I do however hate what they have done and would have to question their belief system. Them being truly sorry is not something that i could ever know and would find myself questioning it everyday. Being truly sorry doesn't hide the fact that what she did was wrong. It would have to greatly depend on the circumstances....but i guess i should never say never.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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PGF
square
Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#524255 - 01/18/02 07:51 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Innvertigo, does that spirit of forgiveness apply to all those who commit crimes? or just chicks? If there were a female mass murderer who was repentant and regreted her actions, and you liked her, would you consider dating her? *Just curious since you equate abortion with murder.
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***The Real Shroomery nigger
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
#524272 - 01/18/02 08:12 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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who said i forgive them? since we're talking about the spirit of forgiveness and all, no i wouldn't consider a mass murderer, no matter how hot or nice they were. It would take an act of God for me to even consider a woman who had an abortion....sheesh am i the only one with standards?
*****Just curious since you equate abortion with murder. ****
I don't equate it..it is murder
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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PGF
square
Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
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OK, damn it. I was directing that last post to Rail Gun. I have to stop getting you two mixed up. He said that he could be with a female who has had an abortion and was remorseful and regretted the act. ......
"sheesh am i the only one with standards? "
I have very low standards.But, it's ok as long as I hang out with friends with even lower standards.
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***The Real Shroomery nigger
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
#524300 - 01/18/02 08:47 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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***OK, damn it. I was directing that last post to Rail Gun. I have to stop getting you two mixed up. ***
LOL..sorry, but now this is beginning to be funny
****I have very low standards.But, it's ok as long as I hang out with friends with even lower standards. ****
HA HA..that's good..does that include Fat chicks?
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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PGF
square
Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
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no fat chicks....a good buddy of mine has a weird fat chick fetish that only manifests when he drinks...it disturbs me. He's a decent looking guy too......weird.
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***The Real Shroomery nigger
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Nomez
journeyman
Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 71
Last seen: 22 years, 10 months
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Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
#524309 - 01/18/02 08:56 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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If a woman gets pregnant and cannont afford or doesnt want the child for whatever reason then what are her options? She can... what? put it up for adoption? yeah right... you know how many of these kids never get adopted, or get adopted by crazy religious people that no one in their right mind would leave their kids to? What I suggest to all these self-rightous pro-life people to do is this... go out and adopt a kid.. show these mothers that the system does work and they dont have to "kill" the child. You may say, well why dont you do that? Because I dont like kids and I dont particuarly care if a mother has an abortion. By the way they arent a human until they are kicking and screaming and in my phone book.
Have a nice day.
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i wish i could give out my thoughts
let someone else feel them
and experience who i am
its difficult
sometimes impossible
always impossible?
i hope not
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Nomez]
#524334 - 01/18/02 09:20 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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****If a woman gets pregnant and cannont afford or doesnt want the child for whatever reason then what are her options? She can... what? put it up for adoption? yeah right... you know how many of these kids never get adopted,***
you're mistaken..there is a waiting list for adoptions
****or get adopted by crazy religious people that no one in their right mind would leave their kids to? ****
yeah..that sure is better then death..sheesh
****What I suggest to all these self-rightous pro-life people to do is this... go out and adopt a kid.. show these mothers that the system does work and they dont have to "kill" the child. ****
no we wouldn't want the baby producers to learn responsibility, it's not their fault that their legs are always apart..it's societies fault. I realize the word responsibility isn't in your vocabulary but you might want to look it up.
*****By the way they arent a human until they are kicking and screaming and in my phone book.****
most people aren't in the phone book untill 18 dumbass
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Ya, there's a waiting list for cute widdle pure-bred babies with all their papers and shots. There're hordes of babies on this planet, many of which would've been better off terminated before they got the priveledge of being born to an existance of starvation, disease, filth, near constant pain...
I'm pro-euthansia. (Ever wished you hadn't been born? Ever had a reason to wish that?)
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Edited by Ulysees (01/18/02 10:29 AM)
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ulysees]
#524479 - 01/18/02 11:42 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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well if you kill yourself there will be one less......practice what you preach  j/k
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 6 years, 7 days
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 Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
#524520 - 01/18/02 12:22 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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PGF, it depends on the circumstances. Lets take a girl that was sexually active and got pregnant. Her parents put pressure on her to abort the child. She doesn't want to but gives in to her parents so that she can still have a relationship with them. Then she regrets it and is very repentant for it for the rest of her life.
There are a lot of bad situations that young girls get themselves in to and their parents can pressure them and when they're 14 they're going to do what their parents want. It's tragic really, abortion is always tragic.
To answer your question, it would depend on the circumstances if I would date a girl that has had an abortion. Most likely not, but if she was sorry and really repentant I don't think Ide hold it against her. And no I would not date a serial killer. The difference wouod have to do with societies perceptions in general, although they are both murder.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Captain Jack
i [heart] you
Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 4,113
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There are shitloads of kids out there who need to be adopted.
Adopting a child who's older isn't popular because it's usually a hell of a hard time. Kids who have had several disruptions in care are generally riddled with problems, and have a hard time getting close to people
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-
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.
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PGF
square
Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
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Re: Abortion. [Re: Ellis Dee]
#524720 - 01/18/02 03:41 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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And no I would not date a serial killer. The difference wouod have to do with societies perceptions in general, although they are both murder.
!!!!
But they are both murderers who are remorseful and repentant. What if it was not a serial killer? What if it was a run of the mill one person murderer?
I understand what you are saying though. Still, both if both are murderers, how can one be less of a murderer and more worthy of forgivenes and your affection?
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***The Real Shroomery nigger
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
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Last seen: 6 years, 7 days
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 Re: Abortion. [Re: PGF]
#524731 - 01/18/02 03:54 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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PGF,
Perhaps it's because I'de be afraid of being around a person who kills adults, but I wouldn't be afraid of a person that only preys on the helpless. But like I said; it would depend on the circumstances. Everyone deserves forgiveness no matter what they've done. But me getting close to them if not the same as forgiveness. It would depend on the circumstances, how old was the girl when she aborted her kid, did her parents pressure if she was very young, did she realize what she was doing was wrong or did she just think of it the way her parents explained it to her, etcetera. Abortion is tragic and it's consequences in the surviving victims of abortion are also tragic.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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isis
addict
Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 484
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There is a waiting list for white babies.Not for all the other babies.Just white infants...
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PGF
square
Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
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Re: Abortion. [Re: isis]
#525381 - 01/19/02 07:06 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Dark babies grow up to go to prison while whitiey babies go to college.
Which one do you want?
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***The Real Shroomery nigger
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Abortion. [Re: isis]
#525428 - 01/19/02 09:17 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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who cares? there are only 10-15% black people in the US There are more white people...don't make this a politically correctness issue. Kinda like that fireman statue..shheesshh
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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isis
addict
Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 484
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I'm just saying there is a waiting list for white babies.The rest sit there waiting,and waiting. Don't make it sound like there is a waiting list for all these kids to be adopted.That is just not true.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Abortion. [Re: isis]
#526181 - 01/20/02 01:01 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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***Don't make it sound like there is a waiting list for all these kids to be adopted***
who cares? whites put up thier babies for adoption more because we make up most of the population..ie: there is a waiting list. why does everything have to be black this white that minority this minority that? In general there is a waiting list.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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isis
addict
Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 484
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Actually, it is not about black and white at all. You make it sound like a baby given up for adoption is a baby adopted, because there is this wating list for babies. I'm just saying that many babies do not get adopted. I was thinking globaly really. It is more like there are millions of kids in orphanages with no one rushing to adopt them. I was not thinking white/black. I just know that there is a great demand for white babies,and there is a long waiting list for white babies in the US. That is well known.I'm not turning this into a race issue. Society has already done that. Are you going to tell me this is not true? I was just thinking that there's no waiting list for asian female babies, russian babies,etc. So, if any one wants to adopt that is the way to go. Plus, the parents would be far away and less likely to take you to court to take your child away after you spent years loving them. They really need to do something about our stupid adoption laws. Sorry, but if you give your kid up for adoption, that should be it. None of this, I change my mind five years later.
Edited by isis (01/20/02 07:39 AM)
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PGF
square
Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
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Re: Abortion. [Re: isis]
#526399 - 01/20/02 07:40 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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if I was a woman, I'd just sell babies to sterile christian couples.
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***The Real Shroomery nigger
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Abortion. [Re: isis]
#527154 - 01/21/02 06:50 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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***You make it sound like a baby given up for adoption is a baby adopted, ***
i never said that....sure beats the hell out of killing the baby
****I'm just saying that many babies do not get adopted. ****
none get adopted when aborted...worth the risk i guess
****I was not thinking white/black****
Then why bring it up?
****I'm not turning this into a race issue. Society has already done that. ****
societies fault?..you are part of society
****I was just thinking that there's no waiting list for asian female babies, russian babies,etc****
as i say again SO WHAT! I'm happy that there is a waiting list for at least one type of baby...maybe you can bring in some stats to back this up
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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isis
addict
Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 484
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Because it will be a waste of my research time.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Abortion. [Re: isis]
#527995 - 01/22/02 07:04 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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i see.....maybe i'll use that excuse when someone wants me to post stats
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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