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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Hypothetical Question for Conservatives
    #2208523 - 12/29/03 10:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

A lot of you have complained that welfare and other social programs are basically the same as theft. I was just wondering: Would you favor such programs if the money for them could be obtained without initiation of force? Why or why not?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: silversoul7]
    #2208532 - 12/29/03 10:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

absolutely, but at that point, we are no longer talking about a government program.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: silversoul7]
    #2208548 - 12/29/03 10:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
A lot of you have complained that welfare and other social programs are basically the same as theft. I was just wondering: Would you favor such programs if the money for them could be obtained without initiation of force? Why or why not?




Wouldn't that be charity? If people want to give their money to poor people, thats great. If people are compelled, by force, to do so, thats not. Taking out the "force" makes it non-mandatory or compulsary to pay into the program, making it voluntary. I don't care what people do with their money, as long as I don't have to pay for programs I didn't belive in.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: silversoul7]
    #2209066 - 12/30/03 03:42 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Those two beat me to it. What they said.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2209106 - 12/30/03 04:17 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I guess you could call it charity, but I'm not necessarily talking about donations. Like what if there was some government-owned business that used its revenue to fund these programs?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: silversoul7]
    #2209142 - 12/30/03 04:50 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Conservatives probably wouldn't like that either.

They would say taking a share of the market away from a private business is unfair.

Conservatives don't like any type of social program, period. They have this slogan that goes something like "why pay a man for not working?", if the social program is directed to a child, then it's, "the parents responsibility", and so on.

Conservatives consider mulitimillionaire or billionaire owners and money-lenders deserve their wealth even if their workers are below the poverty line. In those cases, it's somehow still the fault of the poor.

And therefore, the poor deserve their plight, it would be downright. And why should the government take away what people deserve?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: silversoul7]
    #2209397 - 12/30/03 07:21 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I presume none of the right-wingers are hypocritical enough to have used, or intend to use, the public education system or driven on a road built with public money..


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: silversoul7]
    #2209495 - 12/30/03 08:43 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It is not basically the same as theft. The federal government taking money I have earned to give to those who have not, is theft.

And as others have pointed out, what you propose is called charity. It already exists.

A government owned business would be as loathsome as welfare. It's not allowed in the constitution.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2209765 - 12/30/03 01:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The fact that it's not allowed in the Constitution doesn't make it loathesome. It just means the founding fathers neglected to mention anything about it.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: silversoul7]
    #2209787 - 12/30/03 01:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)


I'll stick with the loathsome comment.

Why would you assume they "neglected" to mention anything about it? I'd say they covered both welfare and your idea quite nicely. Here, just for you.....

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

I'm not sure how that amendment could have been worded any more clearly than it is.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2210037 - 12/30/03 03:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

So states can basically be communist if they want.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: Xlea321]
    #2210039 - 12/30/03 03:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I presume none of the right-wingers are hypocritical enough to have used, or intend to use, the public education system or driven on a road built with public money..





Why shouldn't they? They paid for it.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2211172 - 12/31/03 04:58 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Even tho it's money from "theft"?


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: Xlea321]
    #2211668 - 12/31/03 01:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

America is like : "ME, ME, ME, ME, ME...FUCK everyone else!"


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: Xlea321]
    #2211693 - 12/31/03 02:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

What would that have to do with it?

If their money were stolen and used against their will, they still paid for. If using it is the only way to get back some of the money that was stolen, then what is the logic in not doing that?

Not that I buy into the whole taxes = theft theory.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: silversoul7]
    #2211705 - 12/31/03 02:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It is a pretty simple issue. We have what purports to be a capitalistic economy. This means that the people who innovate and work harder will reap the rewards. Unfortunately, it no longer works that way, since it has long been the trend that the people who manipulate the system the best will reap the rewards...

Either way, if we are going to be capitalists, fine...lets just do it. When we make programs that have the government playing robin hood, it undermines the basic principles of capitalism.

I dont have any problem with communism, and if we vote for that, I will be right there, but until that happens we are just diluting the system until it becomes weak and eventually fails...we are nearing that.

The basic problem is that people are expecting the government to be "nice". We expect the government to do things to help people. This is the reason that the government has gotten so powerful. As long as we take money from dad, we are going to have to put up with some of his shit. The same rules apply for our government. The more we depend on the government to help us out, the more we will be slaves to it. Besides...If the government gave back all of the money it steals from us, more of us would be willing and able to help. People would actually set up systems that can help people. I guarantee that these systems would be more efficient in private hands than they would be in the government's.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: angryshroom]
    #2211733 - 12/31/03 02:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think America is any more selfish than the rest of the world.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2212013 - 12/31/03 04:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

We aren't. It's just fun to poke at those near the top.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2212050 - 12/31/03 04:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
We aren't. It's just fun to poke at those near the top.



It's not just fun. It's important. Those near the top are in a position to do the most damage.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Hypothetical Question for Conservatives [Re: silversoul7]
    #2212060 - 12/31/03 04:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Not that important at all. Those near the top made it. Those who aren't at the top did not. So instead of doing what it takes to get to the top, they slam those who have.

It's human nature.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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